WeneedLumme Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 1 hour ago, gregthehockeynut said: NHL Fighting Major Leaders for the 2017-2018 regular season - hockeyfights.com Erik Gudbranson - hockeyfights.com I realize fighting is in decline but Guddy really is not a full time tough guy. Over the last five seasons he has 12 majors total, I don't think that is active enough to be a deterrent to other team. If you judge him on playing ability only I see him as a #5 D. If his trade value is higher than a #5 I say trade him. It depends on the ask for his new contract I guess...firmly planted in the sitting on the fence faction... The fact that NHL players know how tough Guddy is and are afraid to fight him, does not actually mean he is not a deterrent. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 29 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said: The fact that NHL players know how tough Guddy is and are afraid to fight him, does not actually mean he is not a deterrent. Exactly. How many fights did (does) Chara have each season, as soon as players knew how good a fighter he was (is)? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipBlunt Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 (edited) 33 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said: The fact that NHL players know how tough Guddy is and are afraid to fight him, does not actually mean he is not a deterrent. Exactly. I remember the opening game of the season against the Oilers. Gudbranson lines up Lucic and levels him. What does Milan do? Skates by and gives Guddy a stick tap to the shin. Doesn't Lucic usually get incensed and attack players who do that to him? The tilt against Martin was a decent one for the time allotted. Martin even stated that he respected Guddy after the fight and would love to have a player like him on his team. This, to me, really sums up how powerful Guddy is. Wilson is no slouch, and Gudbranson made him look like a chump. Literally overpowered him. As well, it's important to note how Guddy kept composure and only threw down once Wilson jumped him. I'm glad that Benning's primary objective here is to re-sign Gudbranson. He's a player that will be very handy in the long run. Edited February 1, 2018 by PhillipBlunt 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 4 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said: Exactly. I remember the opening game of the season against the Oilers. Gudbranson lines up Lucic and levels him. What does Milan do? Skates by and gives Guddy a stick tap to the shin. Doesn't Lucic usually get incensed and attack players who do that to him? The tilt against Martin was a decent one for the time allotted. Martin even stated that he respected Guddy after the fight and would love to have a player like him on his team. This, to me, really sums up how powerful Guddy is. Wilson is no slouch, and Gudbranson made him look like a chump. Literally overpowered him. As well, it's important to note how Guddy kept composure and only threw down once Wilson jumped him. I'm glad that Benning's primary objective here is to re-sign Gudbranson. He's a player that will be very handy in the long run. I bet all of Guddy's teammates want him to get signed, sealed, and delivered. Pay the guy what he's worth, which (considering his added fighting skill, and intimidating nature) is worth north of 4 million. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipBlunt Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 2 minutes ago, Alflives said: I bet all of Guddy's teammates want him to get signed, sealed, and delivered. Pay the guy what he's worth, which (considering his added fighting skill, and intimidating nature) is worth north of 4 million. All that's required is that Gudbranson is interested and a deal is inked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
combover Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 (edited) I wasn’t a huge fan of the trade that saw Gud come here. I didn’t see him any better than a #4/5 dman a lot to pay for a number 4/5. but he brought something we have been missing for years toughness,we had tryamkin and pedan in the wings so it looked like the back end was going to be a body crushing crease clearing machine. Finally a big strong d that uses their bodies and aren’t affriad of anyone and can out muscle most and can still skate. Well tryamkin left, pedan traded and soon Gud will be gone too and bam right back to the buttercup d that watches the puck swing their sticks and rarely take the body they can’t clear the crease or protect the goaltenders and get out muscled regularly. This team was suppose to be if nothing else harder to play against it hasn’t been and it won’t be anytime soon. Since we keep sending the toughness and grit away. and won’t call up guys that we have in the farm that offer that instead Chaput megna are called up who continue to offer nothing instead. I’d still like to see Gud resigned but I can’t see it happening since they left it to the last minute and the cards are all on his side of the table.they could have talked and started negotiations jan1st, instead wait till a week before he needs to be moved and is just once again a reflection of poor managment. By that (before the Benning White Knights show up to defend his every breath) it seems that upper managment (JB TL FA) aren’t all on the same page Edited February 1, 2018 by combover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 55 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said: All that's required is that Gudbranson is interested and a deal is inked. That's a really good point, about Guddy's interest to stay here. Maybe, he is only interested in living in FLA, and will only be traded to the Panthers. Why would the Panthers pay anything for him if they know that, which (considering his friendships with players on that team) the Panthers would clearly know? The league is a close knit community too, so (maybe?) all the teams know Guddy's intentions, and there is only a rental market out there? That would suck for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipBlunt Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 4 minutes ago, Alflives said: That's a really good point, about Guddy's interest to stay here. Yeah. So many folks don't take that into account. 4 minutes ago, Alflives said: Maybe, he is only interested in living in FLA, and will only be traded to the Panthers. Why would the Panthers pay anything for him if they know that, which (considering his friendships with players on that team) the Panthers would clearly know? The league is a close knit community too, so (maybe?) all the teams know Guddy's intentions, and there is only a rental market out there? That would suck for us. I think with the roster turnover in Florida, there might not be too many of the same faces around, but who knows. Also Gallant not being there anymore might take the shine off of the apple as well. Gudbranson seems to be a fan of how Travis runs the bench. If I'm Gudbranson, it would come down to what direction the Canucks are heading in, and the team identity. His statement regarding not being the only guy to stand up for fellow players was needed and does call into question (rightfully so) the need to move on from the old core this summer. He'll want to know that Benning is going hard after players, through either UFA or trade who aren't only capable of scoring, but capable of standing up for each other too. The young guns coming through the system will need that insulation from a variety of sources. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 7 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said: Yeah. So many folks don't take that into account. I think with the roster turnover in Florida, there might not be too many of the same faces around, but who knows. Also Gallant not being there anymore might take the shine off of the apple as well. Gudbranson seems to be a fan of how Travis runs the bench. If I'm Gudbranson, it would come down to what direction the Canucks are heading in, and the team identity. His statement regarding not being the only guy to stand up for fellow players was needed and does call into question (rightfully so) the need to move on from the old core this summer. He'll want to know that Benning is going hard after players, through either UFA or trade who aren't only capable of scoring, but capable of standing up for each other too. The young guns coming through the system will need that insulation from a variety of sources. I sure hope you're right Phil! I really believe we need Guddy. I don't see any other player in our system with his 'special' talents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipBlunt Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 12 minutes ago, Alflives said: I sure hope you're right Phil! I really believe we need Guddy. I don't see any other player in our system with his 'special' talents. Me too, Alf. As I said, Benning needs to be looking for players with some backbone in the offseason to sturdy up the corps which will allow the young guys to come into a safe working environment. Evander Kane would be a great add on the forward corps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 4 hours ago, kloubek said: He's not that great of a defender Second highest Dzone starts on the D, PK's, second highest PDO on the team. That statement is simply not true. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kloubek Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 (edited) 24 minutes ago, aGENT said: Second highest Dzone starts on the D, PK's, second highest PDO on the team. That statement is simply not true. So what if he gets deployed on d-zone starts and PKs? That's because he is *supposed* to be a shutdown guy, and is our best option for such next to Tanev because our defense sucks. I could go find the exhaustive information about Gudbranson's deep stats but you can find that out for yourself if you cannot recall it being posted here. Let's just say that his current corsi of 43% says a lot - especially when compared to his prior years in which he was deployed in a similar manner. I can appreciate you believe it isn't true, and I would be happy to see whatever data you have that supports your claim. Edited February 1, 2018 by kloubek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, kloubek said: So what if he gets deployed on d-zone starts and PKs? That's because he is *supposed* to be a shutdown guy, and is our best option for such next to Tanev because our defense sucks. I could go find the exhaustive information about Gudbranson's deep stats but you can find that out for yourself if you cannot recall it being posted here. Let's just say that his current corsi of 43% says a lot - especially when compared to his prior years in which he was deployed in a similar manner. I can appreciate you believe it isn't true, and I would be happy to see whatever data you have that supports your claim. Actual context and proper analysis of those same fancy stats actually. Defensive D, playing largely dzone starts, pk etc, against largely better QOC aren't going to have high corsi unless they're some elite freak like Tanev. Especially on a poor team. His corsi in that context is actually quite good. No different than Sutter in a defensive C role and his being wrongfully painted as a 'poor' player simply because of his stats not being viewed with the context of his usage and role. And all that despite him not particularly having the best injury luck or playing up to his capability most of the time he's been here. Again: 37 minutes ago, aGENT said: Second highest Dzone starts on the D, PK's, second highest PDO on the team. That statement is simply not true. Edited February 1, 2018 by aGENT 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kloubek Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, aGENT said: Actual context and proper analysis of those same fancy stats actually. So where is your context and "proper analysis"? You aren't providing either; you're just providing your strong opinion... as you usually do. I never said his defensive stats were going to be awesome; they won't be, based on his deployment. Tanev's corsi is pretty crappy, actually - exactly for that reason. Like I said, there have been multiple articles with in-depth analysis on Gudbranson, written by people who know how to interpret the stats far better than you and I. They all support my claim, and refute yours. I challenge you to find a single one which indicates, by analysis, that he is a good defender and not just a physical presence. Edited February 1, 2018 by kloubek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 4 minutes ago, kloubek said: So where is your context and "proper analysis"? You aren't providing either; you're just providing your strong opinion... as you usually do. I never said his defensive stats were going to be awesome; they won't be, based on his deployment. Tanev's corsi is pretty crappy, actually - exactly for that reason. Like I said, there have been multiple articles with in-depth analysis on Gudbranson, written by people who know how to interpret the stats far better than you and I. They all support my claim, and refute yours. I challenge you to find a single one which indicates, by analysis, that he is a good defender and not just a physical presence. Feel free to go back and read through the thread (or the trade thread), I'm not particularly interested in re-posting the same information. Especially when I gave a pretty succinct summary just a few posts ago and re-quoted it last post. Yes, articles by the likes of Yost who continue to show no bounds on their willingness and desire to apparently be wrong and misguided. If you're willing to simply take their word for it that players like Sutter and Gudbranson are 'poor' players rather than actually understanding for yourself their roles, usage etc and why that is in fact highly valuable to a team and the more offensively inclined players on it, and why their advanced stats are never going to look 'pretty' in that context...well that's your choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-AJ- Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Related to what @kloubek and @aGENT are talking about, I've been recently looking at a stat I came up with (but probably already exists), Corsi/Offensive Zone start %. Generally, players with a higher offensive zone start % will have stronger Corsi numbers, though there are some flaws in the metric too. Regardless, I took a look at Vancouver's defense and compared them all for interest's sake, as can be seen below: Stats from hockeyreference.com It's worth noting that I've noticed that the further a player's OZ% is from 50%, the more exaggerated this stat becomes, so it's probably most accurate for players closer to 50% on that metric. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Based on deployment Guddy is not perfect. But an effective defender. With Edler on a separate pair, we have two going that have enough speed & a sizeable presence to off set teams like Wash, Anaheim, SJ who have big forwards. Gudbranson makes the team much better than most give him credit for. Even from a purely hockey standpoint. Edler also hits. Erik is also the only guy, with Sbisa gone, that routinely punishes guys, makes opposing forwards pay a price in front of the net, in scrums, in the corners... Its not just about a safe environment for our young players. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 41 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: Based on deployment Guddy is not perfect. But an effective defender. This is another issue I see on here. You defend the guy and people seem to accuse you of overselling him as some top pair #2D or something. EG is a capable, 2nd pair D who excels in the defensive aspects of the game, skates well for his size, brings leadership (and a much needed on this team, size/'grit'). You pay for that. You don't get that for league minimum or anything close. The '3rd/pair, barely replacement level, replace him with a less than $2m UFA' sentiment is beyond asinine. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 27 minutes ago, The 5th Line said: Anyone would love to have EG on their team, but a proclaimed second pairing UFA defenceman is gonna get somewhere between 4-5 mil. You are willing to pay him that? Is EG really that much of an improvement over Luca Sbisa? He was a third pairing guy making 3.7 and took heat for being over payed, how can you justify EG making 4+? Keep in mind that he will be taking some ice time away from Stecher and whoever else we draft or acquire over the next few years if he is like you say, a 2nd pairing D-man. We could have as much as $30 mill cap space. And yeah EG might make that on the open market. Worse, we're a bit under the hammer. What RHD, never mind big physical D who punishes do we have in the pipeline? Never mind ready to go pipeline. Absolutely I would pay that. Orpik got paid $5.5 over 4 years, several years and lower max cap's ago as well. Not sure how we can expect to pay less than market value? And I think we need a guy like Gudbranson. Funny enough; I prattled about Sbisa's $3.7 & Tanev's $4.4 or whatever it is when they were signed. I have learned my lesson. And I suspect it would be cheaper than what we have to pay in assets to trade for a replacement. Real solution? Start drafting D on a consistent basis. Have guys in the pipeline so you have the position of strength to move guys on if you are worried about their market price. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 7 hours ago, PhillipBlunt said: Gudbranson lines up Lucic and levels him. What does Milan do? Skates by and gives Guddy a stick tap to the shin. Doesn't Lucic usually get incensed and attack players who do that to him? If Stecher or MDZ had hit him? They'd have ended up with a concussion and crushed 'nads. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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