Benning's Scouting Background

[Provost]

There have been a whole whack of posts bemoaning Benning trading away draft picks SPECIFICALLY because "he has a scouting background, so drafting is his strength".  This is parroting some of the media pundits like Pratt who say that.

 

Being a scout is not just about drafting.  It is about player evaluation.  

 

There are pro scouts scouring other leagues, it is not just amateur scouts sitting in small towns looking at 12 year olds play.

 

Benning's strength is player evaluation.  Those strengths also come into play when deciding whether to trade for a player like Baertschi or Gudbranson.... and well as evaluating our own players.  If he uses that significant experience to determine what players will fit our team the best, that can't be discounted as not using his scouting background.

 

He made the determination that McCann was not going to be as good a player as Gudbranson (or that he wouldn't fit our roster as well), and that a 33rd pick (which on average nets you a player who is a career fringe minor league player... not even a great minor league player) was worth less than getting a top 4 D man.  The better pundits for player evaluation like McGuire think it was a home run for us (McGuire is a tool in lots of other respects, but he is to scouting what Mackenzie is to breaking trades).

 

He has picked up college players, and the guys he has traded away haven't lit up their new teams like those folks wailing and gnashing their teeth had suggested.  Benning has done pretty darn well so far.

 

You can argue about his ability to sign contracts, and mange the cap... that is an entirely different argument.

[mpt]

Well said

[Warhippy]

I wrote up a pretty solid post about bennings drafting.  seems he finds the odd gem in the later rounds and has a penchant for finding 5-6 d men and bottom 6 forwards as well but his 1st and 2nd round picks have actually been pretty woeful, with Seguin, Hamilton and thus far Boeser being his stand outs.  2 of which were consensus and top 10, but for his wealth of draft position which has actually been in the mid to early 1st round by and large; barring extra picks, he's done a mediocre job at best finding early draft talent

[thejazz97]

4 minutes ago, Provost said:

He has picked up college players, and the guys he has traded away haven't lit up their new teams like those folks wailing and gnashing their teeth had suggested.  Benning has done pretty darn well so far.

Well, there's Bonino and Shinkaruk, but Bonino is playing with Kessel and Hagelin, while Shinkaruk was playing on the first line in front of the net.

[Tre Mac]

1 minute ago, Provost said:

There have been a whole whack of posts bemoaning Benning trading away draft picks SPECIFICALLY because "he has a scouting background, so drafting is his strength".  This is parroting some of the media pundits like Pratt who say that.

 

Being a scout is not just about drafting.  It is about player evaluation.  

 

There are pro scouts scouring other leagues, it is not just amateur scouts sitting in small towns looking at 12 year olds play.

 

Benning's strength is player evaluation.  Those strengths also come into play when deciding whether to trade for a player like Baertschi or Gudbranson.... and well as evaluating our own players.  If he uses that significant experience to determine what players will fut our team the best, that can't be discounted as not using his scouting background.

 

He has picked up college players, and the guys he has traded away haven't lit up their new teams like those folks wailing and gnashing their teeth had suggested.  Benning has done pretty darn well so far.

 

You can argue about his ability to sign contracts, and mange the cap... that is an entirely different argument.

But that's still part of a job of a GM.  He doesn't need to throw in extra picks to get these trades to work.  This reeks of a owner meddling with day to day operations putting pressure on this management group to 'accelerate' the rebuild.  It's too bad, he's already shown he's likely the best drafting GM in Canucks history.

[Provost]

3 minutes ago, thejazz97 said:

Well, there's Bonino and Shinkaruk, but Bonino is playing with Kessel and Hagelin, while Shinkaruk was playing on the first line in front of the net.

Bonino had 9 goals in the regular season.  Shinkaruk has done pretty much nothing in the NHL.

 

Neither have had any sort of regular success or enough of a sample size to make me miss them.

[xereau]

Analytics be damned.  Good old gut feelings for the win.

[WhoseTruckWasIt]

6 minutes ago, Tre Mac said:

But that's still part of a job of a GM.  He doesn't need to throw in extra picks to get these trades to work.  This reeks of a owner meddling with day to day operations putting pressure on this management group to 'accelerate' the rebuild.  It's too bad, he's already shown he's likely the best drafting GM in Canucks history.

Wow.  Did you sit in on the phone call?  Sounds like you might have a tonne of useful information.

[Provost]

24 minutes ago, Tre Mac said:

But that's still part of a job of a GM.  He doesn't need to throw in extra picks to get these trades to work.  This reeks of a owner meddling with day to day operations putting pressure on this management group to 'accelerate' the rebuild.  It's too bad, he's already shown he's likely the best drafting GM in Canucks history.

Yes, but that isn't the argument in this thread.

 

It is also something still way up in the air and too soon to be judged.  We need to have cycled through all the old contracts from the previous regime and all those NTCs first.

 

As for the trades, you have no way of knowing whether the picks were necessary.  These things tend to be in the works for quite some time and have many back and forth calls.  He clearly didn't get the other side to bite with a lesser offer.

 

I assure you that Edmonton would have made a great pitch for Gudbranson... it would have been a big deal for them to get him.  He would solidify their defence like Maroon has done wonders for their forwards.

[Roger Neilsons Towel]

35 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

I wrote up a pretty solid post about bennings drafting.  seems he finds the odd gem in the later rounds and has a penchant for finding 5-6 d men and bottom 6 forwards as well but his 1st and 2nd round picks have actually been pretty woeful, with Seguin, Hamilton and thus far Boeser being his stand outs.  2 of which were consensus and top 10, but for his wealth of draft position which has actually been in the mid to early 1st round by and large; barring extra picks, he's done a mediocre job at best finding early draft talent

Don't forget Ryan Miller when he was with Buffalo. He was their head scout at the time and pushed hard for him to be drafted.

[Angry Goose]

1 hour ago, Provost said:

 

He made the determination that McCann was not going to be as good a player as Gudbranson (or that he wouldn't fit our roster as well), and that a 33rd pick (which on average nets you a player who is a career fringe minor league player... not even a great minor league player) was worth less than getting a top 4 D man.  The better pundits for player evaluation like McGuire think it was a home run for us (McGuire is a tool in lots of other respects, but he is to scouting what Mackenzie is to breaking trades).

This is more or less right, except that I think JB values that 2nd round pick and Jared quite highly, but to get a player like Gudbranson you also have to give up significant value.  That just goes to show how highly JB thinks of Gudbranson.  

 

 

 

[Nucker 67]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

I wrote up a pretty solid post about bennings drafting.  seems he finds the odd gem in the later rounds and has a penchant for finding 5-6 d men and bottom 6 forwards as well but his 1st and 2nd round picks have actually been pretty woeful, with Seguin, Hamilton and thus far Boeser being his stand outs.  2 of which were consensus and top 10, but for his wealth of draft position which has actually been in the mid to early 1st round by and large; barring extra picks, he's done a mediocre job at best finding early draft talent

Benning was never the GM in Boston, that was EDM's GM, Peter Chiarelli. Benning has done a great job so far in VAN.

 

In 2014 - traded away a problem child in Kesler and got us Bonino, Sbisa, Dorsett and you could argue, Gudbranson as a result of the McCann trade and Sutter as a result of the Bonino trade. He drafted Virtanen, McCann, Demko and Tryamkin.

 

In 2015 - he traded the #2 for Baertschi, and received the #3 (Brisebois) from CAR in the Lack trade. Good call keeping Markstrom. He also drafted Boeser.

 

He also found us a possible gem in Larsen, and managed to sign Stecher and Garteig. The jury is still out on the Shinkaruk for Granlund trade.

 

I don't agree his drafting has been woeful.

[BCNate]

39 minutes ago, Provost said:

Yes, but that isn't the argument in this thread.

 

It is also something still way up in the air and too soon to be judged.  We need to have cycled through all the old contracts from the previous regime and all those NTCs first.

 

As for the trades, you have no way of knowing whether the picks were necessary.  These things tend to be in the works for quite some time and have many back and forth calls.  He clearly didn't get the other side to bite with a lesser offer.

 

I assure you that Edmonton would have made a great pitch for Gudbranson... it would have been a big deal for them to get him.  He would solidify their defence like Maroon has done wonders for their forwards.

You have a great point.  Other than the Sutter deal,  none of Benning's trades have been NHL player for NHL player.  We won't know the outcome of his deals for a few more years.

 

To everyone complaining about the Gudbranson deal,  what would you have given as the plus to get the deal done? There is no way McCann on his own would have got it done.  

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, NUCKER67 said:

Benning was never the GM in Boston, that was EDM's GM, Peter Chiarelli. Benning has done a great job so far in VAN.

 

In 2014 - traded away a problem child in Kesler and got us Bonino, Sbisa, Dorsett and you could argue, Gudbranson as a result of the McCann trade and Sutter as a result of the Bonino trade. He drafted Virtanen, McCann, Demko and Tryamkin.

 

In 2015 - he traded the #2 for Baertschi, and received the #3 (Brisebois) from CAR in the Lack trade. Good call keeping Markstrom. He also drafted Boeser.

 

He also found us a possible gem in Larsen, and managed to sign Stecher and Garteig. The jury is still out on the Shinkaruk for Granlund trade.

 

I don't agree his drafting has been woeful.

And he took Virtanen, who we all saw literally dominate every game he played for January - February.  

[Rick Blight]

Personally, I don't really care what his drafting record was before he came to Vancouver as he was never the final decision maker for those teams. I do care about his drafting record since he arrived in Vancouver and, so far, I would suggest that he has performed quite well in that regard. As the man in charge here, I think he has very well articulated his priorities to his scouts that complements his own strong scouting skills.

[Provost]

1 minute ago, BCNate said:

You have a great point.  Other than the Sutter deal,  none of Benning's trades have been NHL player for NHL player.  We won't know the outcome of his deals for a few more years.

 

To everyone complaining about the Gudbranson deal,  what would you have given as the plus to get the deal done? There is no way McCann on his own would have got it done.  

Actually the only thing I wish was changed in the Gudbranson trade is that Florida had to take on one of our veteran contracts like Higgins or Burrows.  They actually have a need for a 3rd line veteran player and don't have a cap space or budget issue this year (they may have once they have to start re-signing their young studs).  The 2nd rounder doesn't bother me too much because we signed some college free agents that were effectively free 2nd rounders.

 

[BCNate]

Fair enough.  Do you think that with burrows and Higgins contracts expiring after the seaaon they may have any value at trade deadline?

[Provost]

1 minute ago, BCNate said:

Fair enough.  Do you think that with burrows and Higgins contracts expiring after the seaaon they may have any value at trade deadline?

Burrows yes, Higgins not much if he has spent the entire season in the AHL (someone might pay "something" to have a guy down there as insurance for injury who can be called up for the playoffs... but maybe not).

 

The question is whether the cap space holds more value for the coming UFA season.  Not sure of the answer because I don't know if we are going to be able to attract the big ticket guys.

[Warhippy]

18 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

Benning was never the GM in Boston, that was EDM's GM, Peter Chiarelli. Benning has done a great job so far in VAN.

 

In 2014 - traded away a problem child in Kesler and got us Bonino, Sbisa, Dorsett and you could argue, Gudbranson as a result of the McCann trade and Sutter as a result of the Bonino trade. He drafted Virtanen, McCann, Demko and Tryamkin.

 

In 2015 - he traded the #2 for Baertschi, and received the #3 (Brisebois) from CAR in the Lack trade. Good call keeping Markstrom. He also drafted Boeser.

 

He also found us a possible gem in Larsen, and managed to sign Stecher and Garteig. The jury is still out on the Shinkaruk for Granlund trade.

 

I don't agree his drafting has been woeful.

You should probably re-read what i wrote and understand what his roles in Buffalo and Boston were.  As head scout and assistant GM he had a LOT of say in drafting.

 

I am not sure I have the energy to dig through and find or re-write my post on his teams' drafting while he was involved, but you can disagree all you'd like; the numbers say otherwise.

[Honky Cat]

Just now, Warhippy said:

You should probably re-read what i wrote and understand what his roles in Buffalo and Boston were.  As head scout and assistant GM he had a LOT of say in drafting.

 

I am not sure I have the energy to dig through and find or re-write my post on his teams' drafting while he was involved, but you can disagree all you'd like; the numbers say otherwise.

He was head scout in Boston?