Canada Hockey Place Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 Short version: He was too good a Power Forward and set the bar too damn high. I believe Mike Gillis went totally Captain Ahab over his Moby Dick, the Power Forward. Or more specifically not just a Power Forward but one like Todd Bertuzzi in his prime. That's an absurd bar. Almost as absurd as CGY expecting every Power Forward to become Iginla. Kesler should have been enough. Bernier, Oreskovich, Bitz, Mancari, Matthias, Kassian, Booth in 6 years. Representing at least 1 roster spot per season. Usually ending in disappointment. In hindsight if you had given that spot to a player like Mats Zuccarello, one the smallest in the league but one with good chance at chemistry with the Sedins and Edler (ie as a back up for Samuelsson) the Canucks would have probably been better off. What we needed was healthy bodies who could score. For the most part I loved the Gillis era. But I do think the search for the next Todd Bertuzzi was a fools errand and a distraction from the true more immediate goal which was to win the Cup. I think when we're talking about potential Power Forwards in the future, we should be careful not to attach the expectations that it's either Todd Bertuzzi or bust. Like Pavel's speed. And Sedin passing. This is not normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 Meh, who knows if Gillis was looking for a Bertuzzi clone - my guess/opinion would be that he wasn't. I think it's a pretty obvious goal for a GM however, to find a big, physical, hard areas guy to play with them - ideally a right-handed shot - and even more ideal if they provide some pushback/deterrence. As far as I'm concerned, Kassian had the ideal package of potential but we all know that he stumbled. Otherwise a pretty fleet guy for his size, soft hands (except when he's breaking your nose with them), good vision, lots of great attributes there, and may still become a good NHL powerforward, but the cards and timeline didn't line up. Not an exercise in folly imo however to look for that kind of asset to complement them though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Building Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 The phrase "setting the bar too high" pisses me off. Not just when you said it @Canada Hockey Place but overall. It feels like a cop out for not finding a replacement (if needed, and I think at least one power forward could be utilized by each team in the west) for an asset that obviously contributed, whether for 1-2 seasons or not. I don't think the search for the next Bert is high on JB's list, and while I hope he is searching for players strong enough to compete in the division/conference his team plays in, I believe he's savvy enough not to be running around chasing ghosts, and will instead attempt to build a balanced team composed of speed, skill, power, and strength. At present, we have some speedy skilled/slightly skilled players, some powerful defenceman who will hopefully develop nicely, and not much in the way of a power forward. In my mind, the search continues for one because if everything else comes together just right that balanced lineup might just become reality. Try not to blame Gillis for what JB might be searching for right now; the lineups are completely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canucks Curse Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 power forwards do not win you stanley cups 3 types of players do 1.Franchise D men 2. Franchise centermen like yzervman, sakic, messier, etc 3. Franchise goaltenders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 14 minutes ago, Canucks Curse said: power forwards do not win you stanley cups 3 types of players do 1.Franchise D men 2. Franchise centermen like yzervman, sakic, messier, etc 3. Franchise goaltenders Nice story, but teams win Stanley Cups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canucks Curse Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 6 minutes ago, oldnews said: Nice story, but teams win Stanley Cups. and if a tree falls in the woods... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowardrobertford Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 Agreed, too much of that size thing, we've been chasing it, and it failed us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 9 minutes ago, Canucks Curse said: and if a tree falls in the woods... Question: which bear is best? Question 2 - Messier: power forward? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger-Hearted Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 5 Stan Smyls >>>>> 1 Todd Bertuzzi/1 Jim Sandlak ANY day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHawk Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Every team wants a power forward that drives to the goal no doubt and we could use one that can not be be moved from the front of the net but IMO we need a forward that can consistently score. Canucks need a guy that can get them a goal when one is needed and right now we don't have one. TO tanked and were rewarded with the #1 pick but Laine would have been the forward Canucks need most. Big , strong and a true goal scorer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmm Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 43 minutes ago, Cowardrobertford said: Agreed, too much of that size thing, we've been chasing it, and it failed us Chasing it is exactly correct. Its not that we don't /didn't need it, its that we drafted Hodgson/Schreoder types then tried to find/make/resurect/"small ball" our size. Of the 7 the OP listed Bernier and Kassian were closest to Bert in potential while Bitz, Oreskovich and Mancari were clearly projects. All are/were 3-4th liners, Kassian and Mathias looked good on the 3rd with Richardson, Bernier was good on the 3rd, Bitz was no different than Cracknell. The thing about Bertuzzi was the Coach, Crow I believe found a combination that worked, just like AV did when he added Burrows to the Sedins. That is a different process than parashooting guys in in the hopes they gel with what is arguably the hardest pair in hockey to augment. The problem with the Sedins is it is "always" find a player to play with them, there is never any onus on them. Last year coach put Grenier on their line and he looked horrible (and so have many others), but when he was put on the 3-4th line he looked fine (like a regular rookie). Bernier came to Van at about the same point in his career as Bert, but for him it was always "become the Sedins winger or bust". He never found that player to click with. Kassian has landed in Edmonton at about the same point. He may toil as a 4th liner forever or one day he may find himself on a line with any 2 of their star forwards and the 3 become the next great line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowtieCanuck Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 4 hours ago, Canucks Curse said: power forwards do not win you stanley cups 3 types of players do 1.Franchise D men 2. Franchise centermen like yzervman, sakic, messier, etc 3. Franchise goaltenders Boston might disagree with that, but therein lies the problem: Copying others and expecting the league not to adapt to their success. Take the Sedins in 2009-2011. Teams struggled to keep up with their passing and dominant cycling of the puck. Sure, they're still offensively strong but they don't have the dominance they did then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hortankin Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 5 hours ago, Canucks Curse said: power forwards do not win you stanley cups 3 types of players do 1.Franchise D men 2. Franchise centermen like yzervman, sakic, messier, etc 3. Franchise goaltenders 1. Tryamkin 2. Horvat/Dubois 3. Demko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canucks Curse Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 1 hour ago, BowtieCanuck said: Boston might disagree with that, but therein lies the problem: Copying others and expecting the league not to adapt to their success. Take the Sedins in 2009-2011. Teams struggled to keep up with their passing and dominant cycling of the puck. Sure, they're still offensively strong but they don't have the dominance they did then. bergeron, chara, and their goalie tim cheeseburger thomas - he played like a franchise goalie during that year and playoffs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
messier's_elbow Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 7 hours ago, Canada Hockey Place said: Short version: He was too good a Power Forward and set the bar too damn high. I believe Mike Gillis went totally Captain Ahab over his Moby Dick, the Power Forward. Or more specifically not just a Power Forward but one like Todd Bertuzzi in his prime. That's an absurd bar. Almost as absurd as CGY expecting every Power Forward to become Iginla. Kesler should have been enough. Bernier, Oreskovich, Bitz, Mancari, Matthias, Kassian, Booth in 6 years. Representing at least 1 roster spot per season. Usually ending in disappointment. In hindsight if you had given that spot to a player like Mats Zuccarello, one the smallest in the league but one with good chance at chemistry with the Sedins and Edler (ie as a back up for Samuelsson) the Canucks would have probably been better off. What we needed was healthy bodies who could score. For the most part I loved the Gillis era. But I do think the search for the next Todd Bertuzzi was a fools errand and a distraction from the true more immediate goal which was to win the Cup. I think when we're talking about potential Power Forwards in the future, we should be careful not to attach the expectations that it's either Todd Bertuzzi or bust. Like Pavel's speed. And Sedin passing. This is not normal. This thread doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but yeah Bert was good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Bertuzzi set the bar low. He didn't take us to a Stanley Cup Final. Regular season scoring means jack. It's nice, but a player's true worth is in the business end of the season - the playoffs. Bert didn't deliver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19Nazzy91 Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 1 hour ago, Captain Woodget said: Bertuzzi set the bar low. He didn't take us to a Stanley Cup Final. Regular season scoring means jack. It's nice, but a player's true worth is in the business end of the season - the playoffs. Bert didn't deliver. As oldnews said, teams win cups. Not players. Don't blame it all on Bertuzzi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Just now, 19Nazzy91 said: As oldnews said, teams win cups. Not players. Don't blame it all on Bertuzzi. If there's a Naslund, Ohlund, Morrison, Jovanovski or Salo thread, I'd say the same. Each were failures. Their talent was never realised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19Nazzy91 Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Just now, Captain Woodget said: If there's a Naslund, Ohlund, Morrison, Jovanovski or Salo thread, I'd say the same. Each were failures. Their talent was never realised. They played their hearts out for this franchise. Those were the players who helped guys like the Sedins, Bieksa, Edler, and Kesler develop in order to let them take the reins, and look what came out of that. They were great people on and off the ice, and calling them failures is an indecency to their memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Balboa Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 I always thought it was all Lui's fault for everything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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