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[Discussion] How to get our #1 Defensemen


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I searched for a general topic and did not find one about what prospects or young dman that the Canucks could target, that could project as #1 QB defenseman. If there is a general one, just like this, please delete/lock, and my apologies.

 

As we all know, you don't win Stanley Cups without a #1 Dman. I love B Hutton, just don't see him as a future #1.

 

Which current prospects, or young players do you think are realistically attainable, that could grow with our young core when we become a contender again?

 

For me, three players come to mind.

1. Ivan Provorov, because of the emergence of Gostisbehere, both being left shot LD,  and they are already deep in D, especially LD.

2. Madison Bowey, because Washington needs to win now.

3. Seth Jones, because they need cap relief and he didn't exactly tear it up last year, still very young. A cap dump would have to come our way. Yes they just traded for him last year.

 

What would Provorov cost, that we would be willing to spend?

What would Bowey cost, that we would be willing to spend? ( I admit to not being as familiar with Bowey and I am with Provorov)

What would S Jones cost?

 

Obviously if these players are in the mix to be moved, Edmonton (and every team) is in competition in these trades and if willing to overspend could probably beat us out. Stranger things have happened, I have to think they spend as much if not more than we did for Gudbranson if they knew he was available. 

 

I would not trade Horvat straight across for either Provorov or Bowey.

Trading Boeser would be extremely hard, but only for or in a package for Provorov, wouldn't for Bowey. 

Seth Jones is a hard one to gauge for me.

 

Assets I would consider: Everything, including unprotected 2017 1st, 2016 #5, Markstrom/Demko, and all current roster players.

 

Who else is out there?

What is a realistic package for any of the ones I've mentioned?

 

Obviously you have to give to get, I understand this.

 

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Benning has said that the price for a #1 d-man is astronomically high and I suspect he's right. We would have to dismantle our team to get a number 1 d-man via trade, thus kind of killing the whole point.

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4 minutes ago, zzbottom said:

I cannot imagine a realistic scenario where Columbus trades Jones considering who they gave up to acquire him. And I don't think the Canucks can offer anything on the level of Ryan Johansen. 

No maybe not in one player, but we can in a package and or taking back a contract like I mentioned.

For instance:

Seth Jones, Clarkson and his contract

B Hutton, Jake Virtanen, their 2nd returned to them and our 2017 first.

 

This gives them huge cap relief, and we get our much needed potential Dman.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, ajhockey said:

Benning has said that the price for a #1 d-man is astronomically high and I suspect he's right. We would have to dismantle our team to get a number 1 d-man via trade, thus kind of killing the whole point.

Don't you think not having a #1 Dman is fairly futile in itself?

If we don't get it this way, how do we get it ajhockey, as it seems critical to a Stanley Cup

 

Cap problems, and expansion might open opportunities that haven't been so attainable in previous times.

 

If we draft one next year or the following, that player isn't realistically a factor until 2022 if at all.

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Step #1 - target NHL teams in looming financial difficulty.

Step #2 - target said NHL teams depth charts (which JB knows very well)

Step #3 - give them a reason to give you what they want (financial relief)

Step #4 - pick up what you need in addition to taking on their financial relief

 

Best possible result = Pittsburg - Pouliot or Maatta

 

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I appreciate and understand the doubt or criticism to any trade proposal, but I am looking for more of a solution to our problem of no #1 d prospect or player in our pool.

I can only think we all agree it is imperative to have this type of player.

It will cost us heavily, that we can all also agree, but how do we not find a way?

Suggestions?

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@Cowichan Canuck Don't need a #1 Dman to win the cup, can also get it done by having a deep high end D-core, that being said, it's actually harder to acquire those kind of D-cores and maintain them for any longer then a year or two.

 

Jones - Not happening, just traded for him, plus your comment of didn't tear it up last year is false. Once he was in Columbus he played for them in every situation and was averaging .5ppg on a team lacking offense.

 

Provorov - Just won CHL defenceman of the year, highly touted prospect. We have nothing that Philly wants for that price, except maybe Demko. Demko for Provorov, would you do it?

 

Bowey - Possibility, but again, what do we have that helps Washington win now. Hansen comes to mind but would need to offer more than that.

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4 minutes ago, Glory_Days said:

@Cowichan Canuck Don't need a #1 Dman to win the cup, can also get it done by having a deep high end D-core, that being said, it's actually harder to acquire those kind of D-cores and maintain them for any longer then a year or two.

 

Admittedly, it can and has happened.  But essentially, to be considered an elite team capable of competing for the cup, you need an elite defenseman on your team.  Look back at the past 20 years of cup winners, there are about only 3 (maybe 4 depending on what exactly defines 'elite') winners that didn't have a Norris level (or very close) defenseman on their team. 

 

Adding a future elite PMD should be one of the top priorities for JB. 

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1 minute ago, Glory_Days said:

@Cowichan Canuck Don't need a #1 Dman to win the cup, can also get it done by having a deep high end D-core, that being said, it's actually harder to acquire those kind of D-cores and maintain them for any longer then a year or two.

 

Jones - Not happening, just traded for him, plus your comment of didn't tear it up last year is false. Once he was in Columbus he played for them in every situation and was averaging .5ppg on a team lacking offense.

 

Provorov - Just won CHL defenceman of the year, highly touted prospect. We have nothing that Philly wants for that price, except maybe Demko. Demko for Provorov, would you do it?

 

Bowey - Possibility, but again, what do we have that helps Washington win now. Hansen comes to mind but would need to offer more than that.

1. I think you do need a #1 dman, off my head I think the last team that didn't have one was Carolina in 2006.

2. Jones,  I don't think he is tearing it up, and my definition of tearing is variable to yours of course, and I see your point. He's a very promising potential #1 d man that is still proving himself. Wouldn't you agree? Then add Columbus' cap issues.

3. Provorov. We have no one player that is fair straight across true, but like I said, we can package...all these proposals are not meant to be 1 for 1 straight trades.

That being said I do Demko for Provorov in a heartbeat.

4. Bowey, we have a bunch of players that could help Washigton right now. Tanev/Hutton/Edler if willing/Hansen/Sutter/Baertschi. Plus we could cap relief with Orpik (ugh, not sure at 5.5 for a few more) or Justin Williams so they could get a FA.

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Trading for a young highly touted defenseman isn't a surefire way of landing a #1 at all either. Many times they develop into very good defenders, Cam Fowler, but they don't reach the heights people expected of them.

 

If we did want to get that route though, target Carolina. They have Faulk already, Hanifin played very well as an 18 year old rookie and they have Fleury and McKeown coming down the pipeline as well. They desperately need help upfront.

 

Winnipeg is having trouble re-signing Trouba, he would definitely add a big presence to our back-end. Would cost a lot, plus sounds like he's demanding a huge contract, so there's that.

 

Sounds like Anaheim will be trading one of their three D "Vatanen, Lindholm, Fowler" not sure if I would classify any of them as a #1 though.

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Trading for a #1 defender is pretty tough. The easiest thing to do would be to trade down, pick up another piece in the deal and draft Juolevi or Chychrun. (assuming that you consider one of them to be a future #1)

 

However, it sounds to me like JB is going to take whichever of Tkachuk or Dubois that the Oilers leave us. (Which I am okay with)

 

Maybe next year...

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1 minute ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Trading for a #1 defender is pretty tough. The easiest thing to do would be to trade down, pick up another piece in the deal and draft Juolevi or Chychrun. (assuming that you consider one of them to be a future #1)

 

However, it sounds to me like JB is going to take whichever of Tkachuk or Dubois that the Oilers leave us. (Which I am okay with)

 

Maybe next year...

I don't have that belief in Chychrun or Juolevi. While being the riskiest I see Serchachev as possibly having that potential.

The problem with all of these is the high risk they don't turn into this, and how long the development would take.

Next years draft I have not heard of one potential #1d man, but would love to hear about any names...still this player would be a long long time away.

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Just now, Cowichan Canuck said:

I don't have that belief in Chychrun or Juolevi. While being the riskiest I see Serchachev as possibly having that potential.

The problem with all of these is the high risk they don't turn into this, and how long the development would take.

Next years draft I have not heard of one potential #1d man, but would love to hear about any names...still this player would be a long long time away.

Yep. Defensemen are always more of a crap shoot than forwards, but if we want a Doughty or Weber, we'll need to take a shot at it sooner or later.

 

I'm part of the tank brigade, but I don't see us drafting higher than this next year unless we get really lucky and let's face it, Canuck fans don't get lucky. (at least not in the draft)

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5 minutes ago, Glory_Days said:

Trading for a young highly touted defenseman isn't a surefire way of landing a #1 at all either. Many times they develop into very good defenders, Cam Fowler, but they don't reach the heights people expected of them.

 

If we did want to get that route though, target Carolina. They have Faulk already, Hanifin played very well as an 18 year old rookie and they have Fleury and McKeown coming down the pipeline as well. They desperately need help upfront.

 

Winnipeg is having trouble re-signing Trouba, he would definitely add a big presence to our back-end. Would cost a lot, plus sounds like he's demanding a huge contract, so there's that.

 

Sounds like Anaheim will be trading one of their three D "Vatanen, Lindholm, Fowler" not sure if I would classify any of them as a #1 though.

Towards the end of the year, and especially in the playoffs, Lindholm and Vatanen became their top pairing. At the moment, I wouldn't classify any as #1 Dmen but Lindholm, without a doubt, has the potential and ceiling to be one and Fowler is a solid #2 who could be one if placed in the right environment. He's only 24 remember.

 

As for getting a #1 Dman, how about, oh I don't know, draft one? Joulevi and Chychrun are going to be there. If not confident with them, Nucks could always trade down and take someone like McAvoy, Bean, or Fabbro.

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5 minutes ago, Glory_Days said:

Trading for a young highly touted defenseman isn't a surefire way of landing a #1 at all either. Many times they develop into very good defenders, Cam Fowler, but they don't reach the heights people expected of them.

 

If we did want to get that route though, target Carolina. They have Faulk already, Hanifin played very well as an 18 year old rookie and they have Fleury and McKeown coming down the pipeline as well. They desperately need help upfront.

 

Winnipeg is having trouble re-signing Trouba, he would definitely add a big presence to our back-end. Would cost a lot, plus sounds like he's demanding a huge contract, so there's that.

 

Sounds like Anaheim will be trading one of their three D "Vatanen, Lindholm, Fowler" not sure if I would classify any of them as a #1 though.

Great idea. Carolina is my forgotten team.

Faulk and Hanifin both impress me. 

Admittedly haven't seen much of their games, but know they are quality and Hanifin is only 19.

What would be your opinion on what it would take for either of these Glory_Days?

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45 minutes ago, Cowichan Canuck said:

I searched for a general topic and did not find one about what prospects or young dman that the Canucks could target, that could project as #1 QB defenseman. If there is a general one, just like this, please delete/lock, and my apologies.

 

As we all know, you don't win Stanley Cups without a #1 Dman. I love B Hutton, just don't see him as a future #1.

 

Which current prospects, or young players do you think are realistically attainable, that could grow with our young core when we become a contender again?

 

 

Our best shot at Seth Jones is an offer sheet that CBJ can't match. If CBJ doesn't move Hartnells contract they will be hard pressed to match a big offer for Jones. Considering how much you'd have to give up in established players like Horvat, this to me is the best route.

 

An offer sheet in the 6 mil range would mean CBJ gets our 1st, 2nd and 3rd pick in 2017, Harsh yes, but its supposed to be a weak draft year. We might be able to pick up some of those picks trading Sbisa for example for some 2nd and 3rd rounders. So you'd basically be trading Sbisa + 1st round 2017 for Jones and maybe some recovered 2nd and 3rd rounders. 

 

Is it worth it.... maybe. Maybe for a future D core in 2 years that looks like this:

 

Hutton-Jones

Tryamkin-Tanev

Stecher-Gudbranson

 

 

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2 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Yep. Defensemen are always more of a crap shoot than forwards, but if we want a Doughty or Weber, we'll need to take a shot at it sooner or later.

 

I'm part of the tank brigade, but I don't see us drafting higher than this next year unless we get really lucky and let's face it, Canuck fans don't get lucky. (at least not in the draft)

I also don't think the 2017 draft is worth tanking for...not like the last two.

I have some belief in the upcoming year, not as good as our 2015 playoff year, but not as bad as 2016 either.

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1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

Our best shot at Seth Jones is an offer sheet that CBJ can't match. If CBJ doesn't move Hartnells contract they will be hard pressed to match a big offer for Jones. Considering how much you'd have to give up in established players like Horvat, this to me is the best route.

 

An offer sheet in the 6 mil range would mean CBJ gets our 1st, 2nd and 3rd pick in 2017, Harsh yes, but its supposed to be a weak draft year. We might be able to pick up some of those picks trading Sbisa for example for some 2nd and 3rd rounders. So you'd basically be trading Sbisa + 1st round 2017 for Jones and maybe some recovered 2nd and 3rd rounders. 

 

Is it worth it.... maybe. Maybe for a future D core in 2 years that looks like this:

 

Hutton-Jones

Tryamkin-Tanev

Stecher-Gudbranson

 

 

I would do our 1st, 2nd, 3rd in 2017 for Seth Jones.

Kinda dirty, but good out of the box thinking Bob Long. 

Not sure Benning would cross that line.

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Just now, Cowichan Canuck said:

I also don't think the 2017 draft is worth tanking for...not like the last two.

I have some belief in the upcoming year, not as good as our 2015 playoff year, but not as bad as 2016 either.

For me tanking isn't about doing what the Sabres did last year to try and get McDavid. (although I think Eichel will be a great player) It's more about not pursuing free agents, letting the players in the system develop in the NHL if their able and plugging the holes with journeymen.

 

After that, you let the chips fall where they may.

 

But I agree. Next year's draft isn't all that exciting. I would have preferred starting the rebuild process two years ago. (and said so at the time) Water under the bridge now...

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