Olli Juolevi | #48 | D

[Phat Fingers]

4 hours ago, JamesB said:

Not sure about the point being made. In his draft +1 year Kane made the NHL and scored 72 pts. and won the Calder trophy.

 

CDC posters tend to look at Canuck players through rose-colored glasses. If we had a guy make the team in his draft+1 year and literally do half as well as Kane (36 pts) most of CDC would be doing cartwheels.

 

I guess the point of the post is to argue that CDC is too critical and impatient with prospects. I don't think that is true. CDC stays in denial for a long time when prospects underperform. There was way too much enthusiasm on CDC for Virtanen and Hodgson and Shinkaruk and pretty much everyone else picked in the first round by the Canucks. The only high draft pick in recent memory who has come close to living up to expectations is Horvat.  Even now we are assuming that Boeser is going to be a star even though he has not played so much as one professional game.

 

As for Juolevi, it is early and of course he is a question mark, whereas the guy we passed up -- Tkachuk -- is already a legitimate top 6 NHL forward. Right now I doubt if there is a GM in the league who would trade away Tkachuk to get Juolevi.

 

Anyway, we should learn some things from the WJC. Let's hope Juolevi can light things up without Laine and Pulujarvi playing in front of him. I will feel a lot better about Juolevi if he can rise to the occasion at the WJC this year.

 

 

Son of Keith maybe looking better now, but he is no Laine or Mathews.  By the same logic Puljarvi and Dubois are inferior to Tkachuk.  I wouldn't trade Puljarvi or Dubois for Tkachuk, no reason I would trade Juolevi at this point. 

 

 

[Phat Fingers]

3 hours ago, canucklehead44 said:

Virtanen was rushed into the NHL last year, same with McCann. I think it messed both of them up. 

Virtanen has just 8 points in 29 AHL games. He should not have been a full time NHL yet. He also scored just 21 goals his last year in the WHL - that isn't exactly dominating. 

Based on his post-draft performance and how we have developed him I would be over the moon if Virtanen became even a 20 goal scorer for us. I think he will be a likeable, useful piece of our team in the mould of a Cal Clutterbuck. A good hockey player for sure, but someone you expect to get at 26th in the draft, not 6th. 

We seem to have luck with college players (Hutton & Stecher) because we don't really need to develop them (four years of college hockey prepares them well). I hope we don't rush Juolevi. 

 Not trying to vent on you, and there is justification in your point of view, but Jake is a enigma right now.  The constant references to his last year in junior always omits or downplays his fairly significant injury and lengthy recovery. 

 

Jake AHL stats are also based on brief stints over three seasons. Hard to quantify or evaulate his future with such a small and segmented body of work. He has shown some promise of late and has this season and next to put it all together. 

 

Don't see the need to project failure or let down onto a kid this early into his career.  

 

I dont know if other fan bases do this to their prospects, all the hate on Jake, Bo was only going to be a third liner. His AHL stats also suck. Juolevi can't become a number one defender, look Tkachuk is doing better a few months after the draft and now OJ is the wrong pick. Drafting is like getting a Christmas present this year and not really knowing what you got until five more Christmases have passed. 

 

EW

 

 

[terrible.dee]

On 11/15/2016 at 11:00 AM, ForsbergTheGreat said:

I think it's a bit hypocritical to say quality of players matters in once instance and then ignore it in the other.  If Juolevi on the coyotes roster he likely would have made the roster too.  Sergachev was never going to make it,  he stayed for a few games due to petry's injury.  Tkachuk literally only had to beat out Shinkaruk for that spot.  That's it.

 

Neither of those players would have made our roster out of training camp this year. So to use the whole "they've made the NHL, there for they are better" doesn't really hold water. 

 

And finally "after such a terrible season..."  sure you hope you come out with more but that's the game you play with the draft lottery. We had a terrible season and the draft lottery pushed us back rather than having us standing pat or even moving up.  Had things gone differently and we won Laine this underwhelming feeling wouldn't exist. The lottery is out of the mgmt control.  Juolevi is as solid as they come for a top 5 pick.  

 

The only reason people are underwhelmed it due to over expectations of what a 5th overall pick really is.  It was a 5th overall, not a 1st overall.  It’s almost like people think that 5th overall produce all these top end franchise talents. 

 

Here is what 10 years of 5th overalls look like:

Juolevi

Hanafin

Dal Colle

E.Lindholm

Reilly

Strome

Neiderreiter

B.Schenn

L.Schenn

Alzner

 

I would say Juolevi is right where he should be. 

 

 

Sorry dude, that doesn't hold water.

 

Saying he "probably" would have made the PHO lineup is pure fantasy, they have more impressive individual talent then we do, on paper they are better and that means he would have LESS chance,

 

But the nail in your coffin is the fact that this kid wasn't pushing for an opening day spot, he wasn't neck and neck with tenured vets, clawing for that last spot....

 

he....wan't.....even....,.,.close

 

NEVER EVEN CONSIDERED, sent packing with the lamest most cliched hockey excuses echoing from the PR department as he left

 

It was even intimated that he doesn't yet have that coveted "NHL body" and according to Wille it will be sometime before he is NHL ready

 

and after all this you say he cracks the PHO opening night roster? I think you have shown yourself to be somewhat detached from reality regarding this prospect, we all want our picks to do well, but evidence is evidence and i suggest you start taking the facts into consideration before forming opinions

And this is the fact that stands out:

 

The only time this guy was on NHL ice with NHL players, management couldn't ship him off fast enough.......and in an era where top 10 picks are jumping right from the draft to their teams top lines, D pairings and league stats rankings, that is not good enough for #5 overall

 

IT wasn't by design that we got him either, in case you haven't noticed our blueline is crowded with new talent who need ice time to solidify their games, the ONLY reason we have this guy is because Benning was caught flatfooted,

 

He was totally unprepared for the Jackets aggressive move, with his player off the board he panicked and took the safest pick he could think of, knowing that solid but unspectacular Dmen can often be sold as being more effective then they really are (Guddy anyone?)

 

That is why we have this kid, because when the Jackets were hustling to move up, Benning was at the draft table  scratching his ass and smelling his finger

 

He may be good down the line, but we are a team DYING for lack of PRIMARY talent, which is really hard to acquire The last time a Canucks GM did that we ended up with a couple of guys named Sedin

 

When you have #5 overall you MAKE something happen, you take a risk, you gamble what you have for a chance at what you NEED

[terrible.dee]

1 hour ago, Eastcoast meets Westcoast said:

 Not trying to vent on you, and there is justification in your point of view, but Jake is a enigma right now.  The constant references to his last year in junior always omits or downplays his fairly significant injury and lengthy recovery. 

 

Jake AHL stats are also based on brief stints over three seasons. Hard to quantify or evaulate his future with such a small and segmented body of work. He has shown some promise of late and has this season and next to put it all together. 

 

Don't see the need to project failure or let down onto a kid this early into his career.  

 

I dont know if other fan bases do this to their prospects, all the hate on Jake, Bo was only going to be a third liner. His AHL stats also suck. Juolevi can't become a number one defender, look Tkachuk is doing better a few months after the draft and now OJ is the wrong pick. Drafting is like getting a Christmas present this year and not really knowing what you got until five more Christmases have passed. 

 

EW

 

 

 

You are completely ignoring the facts and the average rate of success based on where he is at, and your excuses are just weak,

 

the injury is no excuse for his last junior year, it WAS a good reason not to draft him however, missing so much time at crucial junctures is a big red flag, as is an inability to put up points in the minors, spin these any way you want. The facts are the facts

 

Do other fan bases rate their clubs drafting honestly and intelligently, and not buy into hype and excuses for poor drafting?

 

Yes, you should try it

Do other fan bases 

[messier's_elbow]

30 minutes ago, terrible.dee said:

Sorry dude, that doesn't hold water.

 

Saying he "probably" would have made the PHO lineup is pure fantasy, they have more impressive individual talent then we do, on paper they are better and that means he would have LESS chance,

 

But the nail in your coffin is the fact that this kid wasn't pushing for an opening day spot, he wasn't neck and neck with tenured vets, clawing for that last spot....

 

he....wan't.....even....,.,.close

 

NEVER EVEN CONSIDERED, sent packing with the lamest most cliched hockey excuses echoing from the PR department as he left

 

It was even intimated that he doesn't yet have that coveted "NHL body" and according to Wille it will be sometime before he is NHL ready

 

and after all this you say he cracks the PHO opening night roster? I think you have shown yourself to be somewhat detached from reality regarding this prospect, we all want our picks to do well, but evidence is evidence and i suggest you start taking the facts into consideration before forming opinions

And this is the fact that stands out:

 

The only time this guy was on NHL ice with NHL players, management couldn't ship him off fast enough.......and in an era where top 10 picks are jumping right from the draft to their teams top lines, D pairings and league stats rankings, that is not good enough for #5 overall

 

IT wasn't by design that we got him either, in case you haven't noticed our blueline is crowded with new talent who need ice time to solidify their games, the ONLY reason we have this guy is because Benning was caught flatfooted,

 

He was totally unprepared for the Jackets aggressive move, with his player off the board he panicked and took the safest pick he could think of, knowing that solid but unspectacular Dmen can often be sold as being more effective then they really are (Guddy anyone?)

 

That is why we have this kid, because when the Jackets were hustling to move up, Benning was at the draft table  scratching his ass and smelling his finger

 

He may be good down the line, but we are a team DYING for lack of PRIMARY talent, which is really hard to acquire The last time a Canucks GM did that we ended up with a couple of guys named Sedin

 

When you have #5 overall you MAKE something happen, you take a risk, you gamble what you have for a chance at what you NEED

So you think Juolevi was a bad pick at 5? When your wrong in 3 years can I say I told you so?

[Phat Fingers]

1 hour ago, terrible.dee said:

You are completely ignoring the facts and the average rate of success based on where he is at, and your excuses are just weak,

 

the injury is no excuse for his last junior year, it WAS a good reason not to draft him however, missing so much time at crucial junctures is a big red flag, as is an inability to put up points in the minors, spin these any way you want. The facts are the facts

 

Do other fan bases rate their clubs drafting honestly and intelligently, and not buy into hype and excuses for poor drafting?

 

Yes, you should try it

Do other fan bases 

 

Really dude,

 

Soma guy &^@#s up his shoulder and has surgery but is supposed to perform better on your statistical data or he is a bust?  He doesn't meet the average markers and any plausible reason is an excuse. So Boeser will also be a bust if he doesn't produce more on a college team because he is injured and required surgery. Now because of that he will score less points. So he is, by your analysis a bust potentially too.  So no other information needed, no improvement from year one to two, bust no matter what, bust. 

 

20 y/o that doesn't produce right away, bust, failure and poor drafting.  I mean why bother sending Jake to the AHL for development, Terrible Dee has a data sheet looking at his Juinor numbers from his draft year to the following one and it clearly shows Jake has no ability and was a wasted pick. 

 

Okay, Dee we should waive Jake as clearly your abilities to look at the stats and not factor context is vastly superior to any other method. You have all the answers and I bow to your superior knowledge.  

Edited December 26, 2016 by Eastcoast meets Westcoast
Wrong poster named in response.

[Alflives]

9 minutes ago, Eastcoast meets Westcoast said:

 

Really dude,

 

Soma guy &^@#s up his shoulder and has surgery but is supposed to perform better on your statistical data or he is a bust?  He doesn't meet the average markers and any plausible reason is an excuse. So Boeser will also be a bust if he doesn't produce more on a college team because he is injured and required surgery. Now because of that he will score less points. So he is, by your analysis a bust potentially too.  So no other information needed, no improvement from year one to two, bust no matter what, bust. 

 

20 y/o that doesn't produce right away, bust, failure and poor drafting.  I mean why bother sending Jake to the AHL for development, Terrible Dee has a data sheet looking at his Juinor numbers from his draft year to the following one and it clearly shows Jake has no ability and was a wasted pick. 

 

Okay, Dee we should waive Jake as clearly your abilities to look at the stats and not factor context is vastly superior to any other method. You have all the answers and I bow to your superior knowledge.  

How's the weather back east?  You're probably getting less snow than us on this coast.

 

As for Jake, we will wait.  However JB cannot afford misses at the tops of round one.  

[messier's_elbow]

43 minutes ago, Alflives said:

How's the weather back east?  You're probably getting less snow than us on this coast.

 

As for Jake, we will wait.  However JB cannot afford misses at the tops of round one.  

I agree but it's too early to say he's missed on any of his 1st rounders.

[canucklehead44]

3 hours ago, Eastcoast meets Westcoast said:

 Not trying to vent on you, and there is justification in your point of view, but Jake is a enigma right now.  The constant references to his last year in junior always omits or downplays his fairly significant injury and lengthy recovery. 

 

Jake AHL stats are also based on brief stints over three seasons. Hard to quantify or evaulate his future with such a small and segmented body of work. He has shown some promise of late and has this season and next to put it all together. 

 

Don't see the need to project failure or let down onto a kid this early into his career.  

 

I dont know if other fan bases do this to their prospects, all the hate on Jake, Bo was only going to be a third liner. His AHL stats also suck. Juolevi can't become a number one defender, look Tkachuk is doing better a few months after the draft and now OJ is the wrong pick. Drafting is like getting a Christmas present this year and not really knowing what you got until five more Christmases have passed. 

 

EW

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I really like Virtanen. I just would have liked to have seen him become a 60-70 point player in the AHL before getting called up. He has a lot of fantastic raw tools but he definitely needs development to become an effective offensive player as he just isn't there yet. Also with Jake it is easy to take shortcuts. He is physically NHL read, and adds speed and physicality to the bottom six. This makes it easy to pigeon hole him into that role, vs letting him develop with other offensive minded players in offensive roles down in the AHL. 

I think the "physical 15" plays a very underrated role. A physical 15 player is penciled into a 3rd line position and is expected to contribute depth offence and toughness. This type of player can also be moved temporarily up to the top 6 for toughness, or to the fourth line for skill. These types of players typically aren't special team darlings but do play a unique and important role and is often inexpensive salary wise OR to acquire (because they get easily overpaid).

The thing is fans are very hot/cold on these types of players. We either love em or hate him. And I think it is because they have double the expectation - to perform offensively and physically. Often, their 5 on 5 production is great, especially per dollar. The thing is they don't play a tonne of minutes and don't score a lot on the powerplay. 

Trent Klatt, Matt Cooke, Steve Bernier, David Booth, Raffi Torres, Zack Kassian are a few examples of Canucks who fall into this category. Kassian was in the 88th percentile for 5 on 5 goal production his last year with us. Throw that in with physical play at a salary south of 2 million and it sounds like a steal, yet we consider him a bust and Benning traded him for peanuts. l

I personally don't have a problem if Jake becomes a physical 15. It will keep his contract manageable and provides a versatile option up and down the lineup. Physical 25s are your top power forwards. They cost a fortune. David Backes, Milan Lucic, Kyle Okposo, andrew Ladd. etc. Massive contracts. Jake salary would be around 6 million if he hits 25 goals. 

Physical 15s give you about 40% less goals at a fraction of the cost - Chris Stewart (1.15), Devante Smith-Pelley (1.3). If Jake hits 15 goals his salary would be around 2. 
 

[canucklehead44]

3 hours ago, Eastcoast meets Westcoast said:

 Not trying to vent on you, and there is justification in your point of view, but Jake is a enigma right now.  The constant references to his last year in junior always omits or downplays his fairly significant injury and lengthy recovery. 

 

Jake AHL stats are also based on brief stints over three seasons. Hard to quantify or evaulate his future with such a small and segmented body of work. He has shown some promise of late and has this season and next to put it all together. 

 

Don't see the need to project failure or let down onto a kid this early into his career.  

 

I dont know if other fan bases do this to their prospects, all the hate on Jake, Bo was only going to be a third liner. His AHL stats also suck. Juolevi can't become a number one defender, look Tkachuk is doing better a few months after the draft and now OJ is the wrong pick. Drafting is like getting a Christmas present this year and not really knowing what you got until five more Christmases have passed. 

 

EW

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I really like Virtanen. I just would have liked to have seen him become a 60-70 point player in the AHL before getting called up. He has a lot of fantastic raw tools but he definitely needs development to become an effective offensive player as he just isn't there yet. Also with Jake it is easy to take shortcuts. He is physically NHL ready, and adds speed and physicality to the bottom six. This makes it easy to pigeon hole him into that role, vs letting him develop with other offensive minded players in offensive roles down in the AHL. 

I think the "physical 15" plays a very underrated role. A physical 15 player is penciled into a 3rd line position and is expected to contribute depth offence and toughness. This type of player can also be moved temporarily up to the top 6 for toughness, or to the fourth line for skill. These types of players typically aren't special team darlings but do play a unique and important role and is often inexpensive salary wise OR to acquire (because they get easily overpaid).

The thing is fans are very hot/cold on these types of players. We either love em or hate him. And I think it is because they have double the expectation - to perform offensively and physically. Often, their 5 on 5 production is great, especially per dollar. The thing is they don't play a tonne of minutes and don't score a lot on the powerplay. 

Trent Klatt, Matt Cooke, Steve Bernier, David Booth, Raffi Torres, Zack Kassian are a few examples of Canucks who fall into this category. Kassian was in the 88th percentile for 5 on 5 goal production his last year with us. Throw that in with physical play at a salary south of 2 million and it sounds like a steal, yet we consider him a bust and Benning traded him for peanuts. l

I personally don't have a problem if Jake becomes a physical 15. It will keep his contract manageable and provides a versatile option up and down the lineup. Physical 25s are your top power forwards. They cost a fortune. David Backes, Milan Lucic, Kyle Okposo, andrew Ladd. etc. Massive contracts. Jake salary would be around 6 million if he hits 25 goals. 

Physical 15s give you about 40% less goals at a fraction of the cost - Chris Stewart (1.15), Devante Smith-Pelley (1.3). If Jake hits 15 goals his salary would be around 2. 

 

This is just my half glass full point of view. Of course I want to see him become a 25-30 goal scorer - that would be ideal. But if he can just become a solid physical 15 I'd be fine with that too. 
 

Edited December 26, 2016 by canucklehead44

[Alflives]

12 minutes ago, canucklehead44 said:

Don't get me wrong, I really like Virtanen. I just would have liked to have seen him become a 60-70 point player in the AHL before getting called up. He has a lot of fantastic raw tools but he definitely needs development to become an effective offensive player as he just isn't there yet. Also with Jake it is easy to take shortcuts. He is physically NHL ready, and adds speed and physicality to the bottom six. This makes it easy to pigeon hole him into that role, vs letting him develop with other offensive minded players in offensive roles down in the AHL. 

I think the "physical 15" plays a very underrated role. A physical 15 player is penciled into a 3rd line position and is expected to contribute depth offence and toughness. This type of player can also be moved temporarily up to the top 6 for toughness, or to the fourth line for skill. These types of players typically aren't special team darlings but do play a unique and important role and is often inexpensive salary wise OR to acquire (because they get easily overpaid).

The thing is fans are very hot/cold on these types of players. We either love em or hate him. And I think it is because they have double the expectation - to perform offensively and physically. Often, their 5 on 5 production is great, especially per dollar. The thing is they don't play a tonne of minutes and don't score a lot on the powerplay. 

Trent Klatt, Matt Cooke, Steve Bernier, David Booth, Raffi Torres, Zack Kassian are a few examples of Canucks who fall into this category. Kassian was in the 88th percentile for 5 on 5 goal production his last year with us. Throw that in with physical play at a salary south of 2 million and it sounds like a steal, yet we consider him a bust and Benning traded him for peanuts. l

I personally don't have a problem if Jake becomes a physical 15. It will keep his contract manageable and provides a versatile option up and down the lineup. Physical 25s are your top power forwards. They cost a fortune. David Backes, Milan Lucic, Kyle Okposo, andrew Ladd. etc. Massive contracts. Jake salary would be around 6 million if he hits 25 goals. 

Physical 15s give you about 40% less goals at a fraction of the cost - Chris Stewart (1.15), Devante Smith-Pelley (1.3). If Jake hits 15 goals his salary would be around 2. 

 

This is just my half glass full point of view. Of course I want to see him become a 25-30 goal scorer - that would be ideal. But if he can just become a solid physical 15 I'd be fine with that too. 
 

Excellent post.  Don't these guys who are finishers need a playmaker getting them the puck, and that can have a big influence on their production?  I see JV as a physical guy for sure, but he will need a playmaker to get goals.

[canucklehead44]

14 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Excellent post.  Don't these guys who are finishers need a playmaker getting them the puck, and that can have a big influence on their production?  I see JV as a physical guy for sure, but he will need a playmaker to get goals.

 

That probably is the big difference maker. I think the other part is stamina and defensive play. Kassian was producing in his ice time, but I think part of the reason he wasn't moved up to the first line and given 18 minutes per game is the fact his defensive play was shotty and he wasn't in the best physical shape (Smith-Pelly and Stewart probably also fall into this category as well). 

So they likely don't get the opportunity to play with a top playmaker because of holes elsewhere. At the same token, they are reasonably effective generating goals via crash & bang, driving to the net style of hockey. Bertuzzi for example was such a smart offensive player in his time. In fact, the last bit of his career was as a playmaker. He had size and speed,  but his IQ was excellent.

 

A playmaker will of course help, but it will be interesting to see if Virtanen builds amazing chemistry with a player at some point or he is more of a stand alone contributor. 

 

[ohmy]

 Sure am excited to watch Juolevi play today. The Finn's are playing the Czech's which means we also get to see Jasek play. Our only two prospects left in the tournament. It will be interesting to see if Juolevi can put up the points again with a younger Finnish squad or if hes gonna have to be forced into a more defensive roll. I haven't seen all that much of Jasek but playing against the best juniors in the world should show if hes a legitimate NHL prospect. Games on at 2pm pacific TSN5.

[Scorevat]

Pretty stoked to see Juolevi go up against Jasek, both the mvp's for their teams against canada.

[Harvey Spector]

3 hours ago, terrible.dee said:

Sorry dude, that doesn't hold water.

 

Saying he "probably" would have made the PHO lineup is pure fantasy, they have more impressive individual talent then we do, on paper they are better and that means he would have LESS chance,

 

But the nail in your coffin is the fact that this kid wasn't pushing for an opening day spot, he wasn't neck and neck with tenured vets, clawing for that last spot....

 

he....wan't.....even....,.,.close

 

NEVER EVEN CONSIDERED, sent packing with the lamest most cliched hockey excuses echoing from the PR department as he left

 

It was even intimated that he doesn't yet have that coveted "NHL body" and according to Wille it will be sometime before he is NHL ready

 

and after all this you say he cracks the PHO opening night roster? I think you have shown yourself to be somewhat detached from reality regarding this prospect, we all want our picks to do well, but evidence is evidence and i suggest you start taking the facts into consideration before forming opinions

And this is the fact that stands out:

 

The only time this guy was on NHL ice with NHL players, management couldn't ship him off fast enough.......and in an era where top 10 picks are jumping right from the draft to their teams top lines, D pairings and league stats rankings, that is not good enough for #5 overall

 

IT wasn't by design that we got him either, in case you haven't noticed our blueline is crowded with new talent who need ice time to solidify their games, the ONLY reason we have this guy is because Benning was caught flatfooted,

 

He was totally unprepared for the Jackets aggressive move, with his player off the board he panicked and took the safest pick he could think of, knowing that solid but unspectacular Dmen can often be sold as being more effective then they really are (Guddy anyone?)

 

That is why we have this kid, because when the Jackets were hustling to move up, Benning was at the draft table  scratching his ass and smelling his finger

 

He may be good down the line, but we are a team DYING for lack of PRIMARY talent, which is really hard to acquire The last time a Canucks GM did that we ended up with a couple of guys named Sedin

 

When you have #5 overall you MAKE something happen, you take a risk, you gamble what you have for a chance at what you NEED

 

Please inform us as to which players picked from 5-10 in the last 10 drafts have come out of the gate as 18 year olds and cracked their teams top lines and D pairings?

[Odd.]

5 minutes ago, Scorevat said:

Pretty stoked to see Juolevi go up against Jasek, both the mvp's for their teams against canada.

Why is Jasek still overseas? Wasn't playing time an issue? 

[Sedintwinpowersactivate]

I can't wait to see Juolevi's smarts and Jasek's speed!  I'm watching the early game and Dahlin is awesome!

 

Edited December 26, 2016 by Sedintwinpowersactivate

[numb3r 16]

24 minutes ago, Odd. said:

Why is Jasek still overseas? Wasn't playing time an issue? 

His team won't let him go

[clutesi]

High level top two defenders are the hardest to find/develop. OJ is worth the long  term investment. More valuable than a top 6 forward. We still lack the high end défense to challenge for the cup and it should continue to be a priority until we do. Time will tell with OJ but it looks promising 

[Phat Fingers]

4 hours ago, Alflives said:

How's the weather back east?  You're probably getting less snow than us on this coast.

 

As for Jake, we will wait.  However JB cannot afford misses at the tops of round one.  

 

 

We had a few good snows, but it melted a few days before Christmas...  Then rained Christmas morning only to drop to 15 with the wind chill.  We can skate down our roads in spots. 

 

Have a a safe on out there.  Does Vancouver stI'll shut down at the sight of a snowflake?  Hope you are well and that everyone has snowtires.