ForsbergTheGreat Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, Warhippy said: yes, there's TOI as well. With almost 6 to 8 more minutes per game, more PP time, more offensive zone starts, Heiskanens production SHOULD be better and that's without question. If it wasn't comparable or better than OJ's even with playing 3 less games that would be serious cause for concern no? There’s also linemates. QOC, game situations etc.... To suggest zone starts and ice time are the complete correlation to production is extremely simplistic. You and I both know that argument holds no water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Warhippy Posted January 30, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted January 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, R.Dahlin26 said: No. Miro Heiskanen is a legitimately dominate player in that league right now. The way he commands play offensively and defensively while logging 25+ minutes as an 18-year-old is excellent. He plays on the top PP, top PK and has to face top lines each night. He has made the Olympic squad. Remember while Juolevi's production is good he is in his D+2 year and is only playing 15-20 minutes a game on the second pairing being sheltered. Heiskanen being a scratch at 17 years old does not justify Juolevi being a scratch at 19 in his Draft+2 year especially now that it's for consecutive games and we know it's not because of an injury. At no point am I discounting what Miro is doing or has done. He's an amazing player thus far I am saying YOU are discounting what OJ is doing or has done. Miro Heiskanen plays more minutes. Has more PP time. More O-zone starts. Plays with a better partner than OJ in his second full year in a mens club and was scratched in his rookie year OJ plays less minutes, has more D-zone starts, less PP time 2nd pairing or 3-4 defensive unit with different D pairings in his rookie season on a mens club and isn't entirely sheltered. In fact much like your claims about his rumoured attitude I'd need to see some actual literature claiming he's sheltered. As for me, a defenseman being successful with less minute yet more D zone starts vs a defenseman being successful with more minutes and more O-zone starts are two different beasts entirely and point to one being sheltered in ways the other isn't. Hesiskanen being scratched in his rookie year and OJ being scratched in his rookie year with only 10 months age separating them is exactly the same thing. It doesn't matter when they were drafted, like at all. It's like Leafs fans discounting what Boeser is doing because he's 7 months older than Matthews. We're not talking 3-5 years difference here it's barely 10 months in age Heiskanen IS a solid player. OJ IS a solid player. Creating a narrative of concern or separation of vast difference between them by skewing the numbers is not something anyone should give any weight credence or attention too. Which is what you are doing. Until such time as you produce proof or evidence of OJ being sheltered vs Heiskanen and until you can produce or provide evidence that shows as per your claims that OJ is an player with an attitude and an issue in the locker room. I will have to take anything you say on this particular tangent with a grain of salt 1 2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darius Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, R.Dahlin26 said: I mean TPS must not see him performing well enough to stay in the line-up and be a regular if it's not injury related. Hoping Rick Dhaliwal could get a word from Sami Salo about this situation. Your speculation might be true, just would rather get a factual statement from the horses mouth before we draw conclusions here..(i learned my lesson from believing Rob Zepp!) On a different topic, but related in a way, remember a couple years ago when Calgary scratched Johnny Gaudreau and Sean Monahan in the same game? That was their top line...scratched for off ice behavior. All im saying is there might be more to this than just on ice performance because if you take Heiskanen out of the picture OJ was putting up excellent numbers for his age. Edited January 30, 2018 by Darius71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: There’s also linemates. QOC, game situations etc.... To suggest zone starts and ice time are the complete correlation to production is extremely simplistic. You and I both know that argument holds no water. If I am reading this right, OJ has played with 3 different D partners where Miro has played with 1. Miro plays with an all star D man in the Sm Liiga, OJ has not. Miro gets more minutes, PP time O zone starts where as OJ plays more d zone starts less minutes and plays on the 2nd pairing. These are ALL the most important factors as pairing, TOI in various situations, PP/PK etc as well as consistency and quality of defensive pairing account for every essential factor in determining the success of a player. Or as you say, ignoring those factors ensures your argument holds no water 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohmy Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 (edited) Heiskenen World Juniors 11gp 0g 3a -1 Not a top 3 player Juolevi World Juniors 18gp 1g 14a +4 Named a top 3 player WJ All star 15/16 See we can all stat pick to make one look better over the other but they are both great prospects and Im happy we have one of them. Whos better? Who cares! Edited January 30, 2018 by ohmy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, Warhippy said: If I am reading this right, OJ has played with 3 different D partners where Miro has played with 1. Miro plays with an all star D man in the Sm Liiga, OJ has not. Miro gets more minutes, PP time O zone starts where as OJ plays more d zone starts less minutes and plays on the 2nd pairing. These are ALL the most important factors as pairing, TOI in various situations, PP/PK etc as well as consistency and quality of defensive pairing account for every essential factor in determining the success of a player. Or as you say, ignoring those factors ensures your argument holds no water What are you talking about? There’s reasoning as to why players get more icetime, better zone starts and linemates. Drawing the conclusion that “IF” a player was giving the same opportunity they could maintain and exceed there current production is just non sense. Let’s put this theory to test. If Jake Virtanen was giving the same opportunity (line mates, zone starts, icetime) as Brock Boeser would he be able produce at the same rate? Obviously the answer is no but then you got to ask yourself. Why doesn’t jake get the same opportunity as Brock. Theres a reason why heiskanen plays an average of 6-8 more minutes per game. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.Dahlin26 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, Warhippy said: At no point am I discounting what Miro is doing or has done. He's an amazing player thus far I am saying YOU are discounting what OJ is doing or has done. Miro Heiskanen plays more minutes. Has more PP time. More O-zone starts. Plays with a better partner than OJ in his second full year in a mens club and was scratched in his rookie year OJ plays less minutes, has more D-zone starts, less PP time 2nd pairing or 3-4 defensive unit with different D pairings in his rookie season on a mens club and isn't entirely sheltered. In fact much like your claims about his rumoured attitude I'd need to see some actual literature claiming he's sheltered. As for me, a defenseman being successful with less minute yet more D zone starts vs a defenseman being successful with more minutes and more O-zone starts are two different beasts entirely and point to one being sheltered in ways the other isn't. Hesiskanen being scratched in his rookie year and OJ being scratched in his rookie year with only 10 months age separating them is exactly the same thing. It doesn't matter when they were drafted, like at all. It's like Leafs fans discounting what Boeser is doing because he's 7 months older than Matthews. We're not talking 3-5 years difference here it's barely 10 months in age Heiskanen IS a solid player. OJ IS a solid player. Creating a narrative of concern or separation of vast difference between them by skewing the numbers is not something anyone should give any weight credence or attention too. Which is what you are doing. Until such time as you produce proof or evidence of OJ being sheltered vs Heiskanen and until you can produce or provide evidence that shows as per your claims that OJ is an player with an attitude and an issue in the locker room. I will have to take anything you say on this particular tangent with a grain of salt 9 No, what you can't seem to cope with is that Juolevi is in his Draft + 2 season. This is very important to note. Heiskanen is 18 and in his draft+ 1 season. So yes Heiskanen is having the more impressive year. Juolevi is having a good year so far but it is to be expected from a top 5 pick in his D+2 year. It's seeing him being a healthy scratch that is disappointing you don't see other top prospects right now being healthy scratches, in fact, all of them are playing key roles for their teams. Heiskanen' rookie year was his Draft - 1 year when he was 17 years old. Juolevi is 19 and in his d+2 being a healthy scratch. Massive difference. It has been rumoured multiple times that Juolevi lead an all players meeting that lead to the firing of the Coaching staff at the 2017 WJC. That's why it was weird seeing him go from Captain to no letter at all. Again these are rumours so take them as you may. And yes Juolevi has been sheltered. He plays 15-20 mins a night not having to face the top lines each night, unlike Heiskanen who is out there in every key situation. Juolevi does not play on top PP or top PK that is the very definition of someone who is being sheltered by the coaching staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 I am still unsure as to why we're comparing Miro to OJ. It is obvious to see people are wanting instant gratification and the lack of patience during a rebuild is not there. OJ will be in North America next year in Utica or on the big club. Once here his every move will continue to be dissected. If in Utica it will be why he isn't putting up more points, why is he not on the 1st pairing etc. If in Vancouver, why is on this line, no PP time, 2nd unit and more. We're in technical year 2 of a rebuild, possibly the most thorough rebuild in club history if it goes the full distance of 4-5 years. Of course w're not going to be good on the ice. But the worry about everything needs to stop. In hindsight, McAvoy would have been the better D choice, maybe OJ looks different if still in London or in Vancouver. But worrying about it is non productive. As of right now, OJ is still having a great rookie year in his league. He will be a good player here too. Anything in between is just conjecture and not really worth worrying over. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ilduce39 Posted January 30, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted January 30, 2018 Typical of self-loathing Canucks fans to hold up a player we never had a chance at in Heiskanen to throw a wet blanket on the great progress Juolevi has shown this year. Would they do a 1-1 trade Olli for Miro? I’d think long and hard on that, given that Juolevi should top out at a mobile 6’3 215. 1 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 minute ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: What are you talking about? There’s reasoning as to why players get more icetime, better zone starts and linemates. Drawing the conclusion that “IF” a player was giving the same opportunity they could maintain and exceed there current production is just non sense. Let’s put this theory to test. If Jake Virtanen was giving the same opportunity (line mates, zone starts, icetime) as Brock Boeser would he be able produce at the same rate? Obviously the answer is no but then you got to ask yourself. Why doesn’t jake get the same opportunity as Brock. Theres a reason why heiskanen plays an average of 6-8 more minutes per game. So ignore the mitigating factors that ensure a player will or won't have better numbers entirely. No problem. I have no idea what I am talking about and as always you do. Sometimes you and OldNews are the exact same person and that's cool. But I won't waste much more time pretending I care enough about your need to be correct all the time to continue this conversation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, R.Dahlin26 said: No, what you can't seem to cope with is that Juolevi is in his Draft + 2 season. This is very important to note. Heiskanen is 18 and in his draft+ 1 season. So yes Heiskanen is having the more impressive year. Juolevi is having a good year so far but it is to be expected from a top 5 pick in his D+2 year. It's seeing him being a healthy scratch that is disappointing you don't see other top prospects right now being healthy scratches, in fact, all of them are playing key roles for their teams. Heiskanen' rookie year was his Draft - 1 year when he was 17 years old. Juolevi is 19 and in his d+2 being a healthy scratch. Massive difference. It has been rumoured multiple times that Juolevi lead an all players meeting that lead to the firing of the Coaching staff at the 2017 WJC. That's why it was weird seeing him go from Captain to no letter at all. Again these are rumours so take them as you may. And yes Juolevi has been sheltered. He plays 15-20 mins a night not having to face the top lines each night, unlike Heiskanen who is out there in every key situation. Juolevi does not play on top PP or top PK that is the very definition of someone who is being sheltered by the coaching staff. OJ is only 10 months older than Heiskanen. We see 10 year vets in the NHL scratched regularly. Spezza was recently scratched. This year Gaudreau and Monahan were scratched. You're reading WAY to deeply in to it and pretending there's a "massive difference" is laughable Rumoured a couple times? No it was flat out stated that OJ and the leaders on the finnish WJC team loathed the way the coaching staff was utilizing the payers and were looking at potential relegation. So they stepped up and said they wouldn't play for them. That's not an attitude or locker room issue. That's a straight up leader. I think you have vastly different ideas on what sheltered means than some of the rest of us. I can't take much more salt in grain form or otherwise right now. Enjoy your tangent. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, Warhippy said: So ignore the mitigating factors that ensure a player will or won't have better numbers entirely. No problem. I have no idea what I am talking about and as always you do. Sometimes you and OldNews are the exact same person and that's cool. But I won't waste much more time pretending I care enough about your need to be correct all the time to continue this conversation Can you summarize the point you are trying to make. From my point of view you’re trying to discount the fact that an 18 year old,tied in 2nd in d points despite, playing in a less amount of games, leads his league in icetime per game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.Dahlin26 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, Warhippy said: I am still unsure as to why we're comparing Miro to OJ. It is obvious to see people are wanting instant gratification and the lack of patience during a rebuild is not there. OJ will be in North America next year in Utica or on the big club. Once here his every move will continue to be dissected. If in Utica it will be why he isn't putting up more points, why is he not on the 1st pairing etc. If in Vancouver, why is on this line, no PP time, 2nd unit and more. We're in technical year 2 of a rebuild, possibly the most thorough rebuild in club history if it goes the full distance of 4-5 years. Of course w're not going to be good on the ice. But the worry about everything needs to stop. In hindsight, McAvoy would have been the better D choice, maybe OJ looks different if still in London or in Vancouver. But worrying about it is non productive. As of right now, OJ is still having a great rookie year in his league. He will be a good player here too. Anything in between is just conjecture and not really worth worrying over. If Juolevi cannot crack the Canucks d-core by his D+3 year, especially a d-core as putrid as the Canucks, it will be very disappointing for many. And of course, his play is going to be dissected. This isn't a 4th round pick, this is a fifth overall pick and a highly questionable one with the players they passed on. So if he is in fact in Utica there would be a reason for that as he would not be NHL ready and you'll see posters continue to ask questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 30 minutes ago, R.Dahlin26 said: I mean TPS must not see him performing well enough to stay in the line-up and be a regular if it's not injury related. Hoping Rick Dhaliwal could get a word from Sami Salo about this situation. maybe he's annoyed at not making the Olympic team? maybe his coach hates him? who knows. Its weird though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.Dahlin26 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 7 minutes ago, ilduce39 said: Typical of self-loathing Canucks fans to hold up a player we never had a chance at in Heiskanen to throw a wet blanket on the great progress Juolevi has shown this year. Would they do a 1-1 trade Olli for Miro? I’d think long and hard on that, given that Juolevi should top out at a mobile 6’3 215. Okay, want to talk about Sergachev, McAvoy, Tkachuk, or Keller? Didn't think so. The only reason Miro is brought up is that he is playing in the same league as Juolevi and both are u20 d-men. Both their respective organizations expect them to be top pairing d-men. Both were top 5 picks. See how some would like to compare them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Can you summarize the point you are trying to make. From my point of view you’re trying to discount the fact that an 18 year old,tied in 2nd in d points despite, playing in a less amount of games, leads his league in icetime per game. At no point am I discounting it. You're inf act intentionally ignoring my continually stating how good Miro is. Do the math More ice time. Better D pairing partner. More PP time. More offensive zone starts will lead to better overall numbers. That's it that's all Or in laymans terms Work more hours, work a better position, work with better benefits. Earn more money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, R.Dahlin26 said: If Juolevi cannot crack the Canucks d-core by his D+3 year, especially a d-core as putrid as the Canucks, it will be very disappointing for many. And of course, his play is going to be dissected. This isn't a 4th round pick, this is a fifth overall pick and a highly questionable one with the players they passed on. So if he is in fact in Utica there would be a reason for that as he would not be NHL ready and you'll see posters continue to ask questions. It isn't about how putrid the D core is You don't know coach green very well if you do There are only so many roster spots. There is only so much ice time. Coach Green will give you spots if you earn them. But if there is only X amount of spots on the left which are already eaten up by pre-existing players on contracts by simple numbers OJ will be pushed out and it has little to do with his ability to play well or not. The most likely scenario is a 60-40 NHL/AHL next year and that's fine The fun part will be seeing what happens when both him and Miro are 3rd year NHL players and we revisit this. Because for all the comparisons, we've seen OJ be successful on NA ice. By comparison, we've seen Heiskanen shy away from physical play entirely and have yet to see him play in North America Again, it all comes down to a lack of aptience for a true rebuild within this fan base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post aGENT Posted January 30, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted January 30, 2018 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ilduce39 Posted January 30, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted January 30, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, R.Dahlin26 said: Okay, want to talk about Sergachev, McAvoy, Tkachuk, or Keller? Didn't think so. The only reason Miro is brought up is that he is playing in the same league as Juolevi and both are u20 d-men. Both their respective organizations expect them to be top pairing d-men. Both were top 5 picks. See how some would like to compare them? Why wouldn’t I want to talk about those other players? I don’t mind acknowledging they’ve beaten Olli to the NHL. Doesn’t mean they will have the better careers. You’re assuming linear improvement year to year - that’s not how it works. Juolevi could still be as good as any of those names listed - it’s no surprise he’s taken his time growing into his body. That was always the deal. Comparing him to Heiskanen is fine - but you’re obviously doing it just to crap on Olli - which is an obnoxious thing to do given the forum you’re in. It’s not even productive - it’s just a random Debbie downer comment. “Olli is doing great” “yeah but Heiskanen plays more minutes and was drafted a year later.” So? Go bop about that to a Stars fan - Heiskanen’s early success doesn’t affect Juolevi in any way. Hippy makes a great point about them being 10 months apart - it’s also their first years in Liiga - they’re both rookies. Pretty much an even field, draft years be damned. On on the contrary, Juolevi growing up in London (and playing that extra year there) shines through in the U20 numbers - not only is he much larger than Miro, he’s accustomed to the small ice surface. I like that for his NHL chances. Again, I’m not sure I do that’s deal 1-1. Edited January 30, 2018 by ilduce39 2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Warhippy said: At no point am I discounting it. You're inf act intentionally ignoring my continually stating how good Miro is. Do the math More ice time. Better D pairing partner. More PP time. More offensive zone starts will lead to better overall numbers. That's it that's all Or in laymans terms Work more hours, work a better position, work with better benefits. Earn more money Earn more ice time, earn more pp usage and zone starts. Theres a reason why players ice time and usage differ. Or in layman’s terms the coach doesn’t believe giving you that extra opportunity will have a positive outcome on the team. Should we just hand goldy 70% ozone starts, 20 min of icetime and be on the 1st pp unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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