JM_ Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 1 minute ago, Alflives said: He looks bigger than I remember. He needed to grow into his frame, and it's looking like that's happened. He's going to be up here soon. I'm not surprised he'd had some soreness, getting back into game shape would have been hard, and as you say he's also been growing. If he's blocking shots like that tho he must feel pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dats hockey Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 1 hour ago, aGENT said: It’s sad isn’t it, such a horrible stat when you are out there as often as OJ and this is A team sport not every goal OJ is on the ice for is his fault... maybe if OJ played 10-12 minutes a night then we should worry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred65 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, aGENT said: Proves my other theory, cheer leaders don't like to be upset with facts ps. I guess Rafferty's +/- of +10 is useless too Edited December 9, 2019 by Fred65 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 9 minutes ago, Fred65 said: Proves my other theory, cheer leaders don't like to be upset with facts ps. I guess Rafferty's +/- of +10 is useless too Like Rafferty, but he's nearly 4 years older than OJ. OJ is finally growing into his frame, and we are seeing a top 4 NHL D man now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Fred65 said: Proves my other theory, cheer leaders don't like to be upset with facts ps. I guess Rafferty's +/- of +10 is useless too 'facts', 'cheer leaders' Nope. Just needs context. Edited December 9, 2019 by aGENT 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred65 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Alflives said: Like Rafferty, but he's nearly 4 years older than OJ. OJ is finally growing into his frame, and we are seeing a top 4 NHL D man now. Yeah I hope so, of the 900+ AHL players stats are collected for, Rafferty is #30 O/A, which to my mind is far better than # 883. This is Rafferty's 1st Pro season. Josh Teves is a +9. These kids were developed in the NCAA Edited December 9, 2019 by Fred65 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Just now, Fred65 said: Yeah I hope so, of the 900+ AHL players stats are collected for, Rafferty is #30 O/A, which to my mind is far better than # 883. This is Rafferty's 1st Pro season. I like Rafferty, and think (even though he is almost 25) can help us. I just don't see much of a ceiling higher than what he is right now. OJ, on the other hand, is only now physically maturing, and we are seeing a big boy becoming a big man. He's going to be a lot stronger and quicker, while still having the high hockey IQ and elite skills. He's going to be up with us in the spring for sure. (providing he's healthy, of course. That's his achilles heel.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post SilentSam Posted December 9, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Jimmy McGill said: OJ's looking pretty good here, I hope we can have a look at him after Christmas with the big club. A Joulevi and Tryamkin Pairing might look sweet in the future. 2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 19 minutes ago, Fred65 said: Yeah I hope so, of the 900+ AHL players stats are collected for, Rafferty is #30 O/A, which to my mind is far better than # 883. This is Rafferty's 1st Pro season. Josh Teves is a +9. These kids were developed in the NCAA +/- is a terrible stat to measure an individual player by. Bad line change, a dman comes off at a bad time, OJ steps onto the ice jst as the other team scores and he gets a -, even though he was on the ice for 2-3 seconds. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred65 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, stawns said: +/- is a terrible stat to measure an individual player by. Bad line change, a dman comes off at a bad time, OJ steps onto the ice jst as the other team scores and he gets a -, even though he was on the ice for 2-3 seconds. I understand that position/argument, but a bad line chnage can impact on many stats not just +/-. Here's the thing the pro & cons of the +/- tends to level out if there's adequate numbers ie 900 players and hundreds of games played. All the players are judged by the same parameters so the rules that apply to OJ also apply to Rafferty/Teves. Edited December 9, 2019 by Fred65 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Just now, Fred65 said: I understand that position/arrgument, but a bad line chnage can impact on many stats not just +/-. Here's the thing the pro & cons of the +/- tends to level out if there's adequate numbers ie 900 players and hundreds of games played. All the players are judged by the same parameters so the rules that apply to OJ also apply to Rafferty/Tevo. I know quite a few scouts and don't know any who look at +/- as a useful metric with any serious consideration 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, stawns said: I know quite a few scouts and don't know any who look at +/- as a useful metric with any serious consideration I agree. A guy like Tanev, for example, plays some wickedly hard minutes five on five. A guy like Stecher doesn't. that's true on every team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred65 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, stawns said: I know quite a few scouts and don't know any who look at +/- as a useful metric with any serious consideration Just like +/- are these good scouts Oh, I understand the argument. The classic example of a poor stat was when Gradin won a draw in his end, absolutely clean. Lindgren was the D picked it up pivoted and rather than slam it around the back wall fired it directly into his own net. Gradin is a given a minus 1 on that play. But here's a fact the larger the numbers the better it offers value. Especially when you look at players on the same team ie OJ versus Rafferty. One is doing better than the other. Edited December 9, 2019 by Fred65 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Just now, Fred65 said: Just like +/- are these good scouts Oh, I understand the argument. The classic example of a poor stat was when Gradin won a draw in his end, absolutely clean. Lindgren was the D picked it up pivoted and rather than slam it around the back wall fired it directly into his own net. Gradin is a given a minus 1 on that play I do get where you're coming from and, obviously a + is preferred. However< i think at one time Horvat had one of the worst +/-'s in the league. Its a stat that has to be taken in context, imo 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred65 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 1 minute ago, stawns said: I do get where you're coming from and, obviously a + is preferred. However< i think at one time Horvat had one of the worst +/-'s in the league. Its a stat that has to be taken in context, imo That's a fair point. But in Horvat's case he takes too many defensive end draws. The facts is contrary to most beliefs Horvat is not that great defensively and it shows. It's one the reason Green likes it when Beagle and Sutter are in the line up, IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theo5789 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, Fred65 said: That's a fair point. But in Horvat's case he takes too many defensive end draws. The facts is contrary to most beliefs Horvat is not that great defensively and it shows. It's one the reason Green likes it when Beagle and Sutter are in the line up, IMO Horvat is fine defensively. Green wants to get Horvat in more offensive situations because he's decent there as well whereas Sutter and Beagle are more strictly defensive oriented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe-max Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Not saying that it is an entirely useless stat nor that OJ is fully developed and doesn't still need to adjust/improve, but if you look at some of the league's worst +/-stats from last year, the company is not too bad: - Ristolainen -41 - Doughty -34 - Malkin - 25 - Hoffman - 24 - Laine - 24 Or this season so far: - Burns -20 - Gardiner - 17 - Labanc -17 - Kessel - 16 - Green -15 - Subba - 15 - Hanifin -14 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 (edited) Funny: https://theahl.com/stats/player-stats/all-teams/65?playertype=skater&position=skaters&rookie=no&sort=plus_minus&statstype=standard&page=2&league=4 has Rafferty in a tie with 8 other players, starting with the number 23, so only 22 guys with a better rating, but poster, Fred65, above says #30 Edited December 9, 2019 by gurn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 14 minutes ago, Fred65 said: That's a fair point. But in Horvat's case he takes too many defensive end draws. The facts is contrary to most beliefs Horvat is not that great defensively and it shows. It's one the reason Green likes it when Beagle and Sutter are in the line up, IMO that's the point though.........+/- isn't a reliable metric to judge an individual player's defensive ability on without context. It makes it seem like he's not, when actually he's quite reliable defensively, he just so happens to get a ton of defensive zone starts and the odds catch up to him. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCNate Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Fred65 said: I understand that position/argument, but a bad line chnage can impact on many stats not just +/-. Here's the thing the pro & cons of the +/- tends to level out if there's adequate numbers ie 900 players and hundreds of games played. All the players are judged by the same parameters so the rules that apply to OJ also apply to Rafferty/Teves. Joulevi is -7. He is a good game away from being -4, and jumping 300 or so players. Not going to debate the relevance of +/-, but -7 is not a huge deal. It's not like he is on the red wings top line and running -25 or so. He also just missed a month for a nagging/recurring injury. He has 3 points in 2 games since coming back, I'd give him a bit of time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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