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Olli Juolevi | #48 | D


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2 hours ago, shayster007 said:

What would make you think that? Based off experience, Olli has played pro hockey in the AHL against men. Rathbone has only played against college kids. Based off experience alone Juolevi seems more NHL ready then Rathbone. Before his injury Juolevi was playing very well in the AHL.

College players are still men. The players in Major Junior are kids. Woo was playing against kids for example. Rathbone was playing against men in college. Not as seasoned men as the AHL, but not kids.

 

Increasingly, more players have come from college and succeeded right away. Just among D-men: McAvoy, Hughes, Fox, Werenski, Makar are all young D from College with none or minimal time in the AHL

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43 minutes ago, Where's Wellwood said:

College players are still men. The players in Major Junior are kids. Woo was playing against kids for example. Rathbone was playing against men in college. Not as seasoned men as the AHL, but not kids.

 

Increasingly, more players have come from college and succeeded right away. Just among D-men: McAvoy, Hughes, Fox, Werenski, Makar are all young D from College with none or minimal time in the AHL

Fair, young men. But as you said yourself, much less seasoned, and lower competition. Juolevi played in a men's league last year in Finland and a men's league in this year before his injury. I didn't have the chance to watch of Rathbone, so I'm curious to what makes him more NHL ready. My opinion would be, Olli is more likely to transition to the NHL game based off prior experience.

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On 7/28/2020 at 5:17 AM, CanuckCup2022 said:

Rathbone is 1 year younger than Juolevi and has arguably already demonstrated he is a more developed and NHL ready D man than Juolevi.

 

It will be interesting to see which one pulls ahead.

 

Finally a good problem to have with our Canucks as we rarely have had a number of good D man prospects (or very young D) at the same time (Hughes, Rathbone, Juolevi).

That's pretty debatable. Rathbone has skill, but has only played at the college level as his highest point. Juolevi has dealt with injuries, but brings his own skill and a reasonably solid defensive game - something Rathbone still has to work on to be successful in the NHL.

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2 hours ago, Where's Wellwood said:

College players are still men. The players in Major Junior are kids. Woo was playing against kids for example. Rathbone was playing against men in college. Not as seasoned men as the AHL, but not kids.

 

Increasingly, more players have come from college and succeeded right away. Just among D-men: McAvoy, Hughes, Fox, Werenski, Makar are all young D from College with none or minimal time in the AHL

We aren't talking about Woo and junior, we're comparing to Juolevi and the AHL. College may be men, but it's a lower level of competition with more rest and training. AHL is arguably the second best league in the world (with the KHL being the main competition). How Rathbone does against pro competition is yet to be seen. Juolevi was quietly putting up a solid season this year in the pros.

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4 minutes ago, elvis15 said:

We aren't talking about Woo and junior, we're comparing to Juolevi and the AHL. College may be men, but it's a lower level of competition with more rest and training. AHL is arguably the second best league in the world (with the KHL being the main competition). How Rathbone does against pro competition is yet to be seen. Juolevi was quietly putting up a solid season this year in the pros.

I was using Woo as an example of a player who is playing against kids. I'd say Rathbone is between Juolevi and Woo in terms of readiness based on the competition they played against.

But again, several college D-men have recently went straight to the NHL and rocked it. So we never know.

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15 hours ago, shayster007 said:

What would make you think that? Based off experience, Olli has played pro hockey in the AHL against men. Rathbone has only played against college kids. Based off experience alone Juolevi seems more NHL ready then Rathbone. Before his injury Juolevi was playing very well in the AHL.

That's why we don't base things on experience alone. Rathbone is easily the more complete player at this point in time, and just that he was playing college hockey doesn't mean he's not able to play NHL hockey. Juolevi wasn't doing as well in the AHL as you think he was and is still very much a project.

 

I think both have a chance of making the team next year but give the edge to Rathbone if it's one of the other. I don't think people get just how good Rathbone actually is, and an age difference and differences in competition doesn't mean he's less developed.

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Just now, GoCanucks16 said:

That's why we don't base things on experience alone. Rathbone is easily the more complete player at this point in time, and just that he was playing college hockey doesn't mean he's not able to play NHL hockey. Juolevi wasn't doing as well in the AHL as you think he was and is still very much a project.

 

I think both have a chance of making the team next year but give the edge to Rathbone if it's one of the other. I don't think people get just how good Rathbone actually is, and an age difference and differences in competition doesn't mean he's less developed.

How is Rathbone "easily" the more complete player?

 

You're comparing apples and oranges. How much "better" does Juolevi need to be better in order for you to consider him to be doing well in the AHL? 2 PPG per game? He looks like he's coming into his own.

 

2018-19 Utica Comets AHL 18 1 12 13 2 -12 -- -- -- -- --
2019-20 Utica Comets AHL 45 2 23 25 24 -8          
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17 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

How is Rathbone "easily" the more complete player?

 

You're comparing apples and oranges. How much "better" does Juolevi need to be better in order for you to consider him to be doing well in the AHL? 2 PPG per game? He looks like he's coming into his own.

 

2018-19 Utica Comets AHL 18 1 12 13 2 -12 -- -- -- -- --
2019-20 Utica Comets AHL 45 2 23 25 24 -8          

OJ's somewhat of a defensive liability and needs to improve his skating, particularly his lateral movement and first step. He has decent transition play, ok passing and not much for a shot.

 

Rathbone's skating is borderline elite, he has a cannon of a shot, and his transitional play is high quality. He has a good pass and creates plays in a way Juolevi can't.

 

And Jack has top-4 potential whereas Juolevi will likely top out as a bottom-pairing defender. I know that's more to do with potentials than where they're at right now, but Rathbone is definitely the better prospect.

 

I definitely see Rathbone getting more NHL action than Juolevi come next season when he can play.

 

e: And those numbers you posted are far from exceptional.

Edited by GoCanucks16
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28 minutes ago, GoCanucks16 said:

That's why we don't base things on experience alone. Rathbone is easily the more complete player at this point in time, and just that he was playing college hockey doesn't mean he's not able to play NHL hockey. Juolevi wasn't doing as well in the AHL as you think he was and is still very much a project.

 

I think both have a chance of making the team next year but give the edge to Rathbone if it's one of the other. I don't think people get just how good Rathbone actually is, and an age difference and differences in competition doesn't mean he's less developed.

Based off what? Admittedly I only watch a handful of Utica games, but do feel I saw enough to form my own opinion. When Olli was healthy I thought he looked really solid last year. I didn't watch any games from Finland, but reports were he was leaned on as stop 4 in a men's league. He looked great last night and not at all out of place in the NHL.

 

It's fine to disagree, but you haven't really given any evidence to support what you're saying, while I'm expressing evidence of experience. How much have you watch Rathbone? I haven't seen full game tape if him.

 

Edit. I read your above post, and I disagree with your assessment of Olli entirely. He didn't look to be a liability last year, or last night. He still has top 4 potential in my eyes, while you seem to have written him off for the most part. This one comes down to a difference of opinion I think.

 

But to say Rathbone is easily more ready for the NHL is just false to me. You are comparing 2 different players skills set based off your opinion. The only factor that's easily measurable is experience which Juolevi pulls ahead considerably.

Edited by shayster007
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10 minutes ago, GoCanucks16 said:

OJ's somewhat of a defensive liability and needs to improve his skating, particularly his lateral movement and first step. He has decent transition play, ok passing and not much for a shot.

 

Rathbone's skating is borderline elite, he has a cannon of a shot, and his transitional play is high quality. He has a good pass and creates plays in a way Juolevi can't.

 

And Jack has top-4 potential whereas Juolevi will likely top out as a bottom-pairing defender. I know that's more to do with potentials than where they're at right now, but Rathbone is definitely the better prospect.

 

I definitely see Rathbone getting more NHL action than Juolevi come next season when he can play.

OJ's  outlet pass is first class, his skating is good...better than anyone we have now on D not named Quinn...his shot is hard and accurate...

 

They are almost the same age so we will see how it shakes out....but i wouldn't be dissing Oli just yet....his mobility is only going to get better now that his hip is finally healed and that was his only real problem...at least that is what kept him from addressing any of his defensive issues.

 

I think they will both take a spot by TDL next year ....

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22 minutes ago, shayster007 said:

Based off what? Admittedly I only watch a handful of Utica games, but do feel I saw enough to form my own opinion. When Olli was healthy I thought he looked really solid last year. I didn't watch any games from Finland, but reports were he was leaned on as stop 4 in a men's league. He looked great last night and not at all out of place in the NHL.

 

It's fine to disagree, but you haven't really given any evidence to support what you're saying, while I'm expressing evidence of experience. How much have you watch Rathbone? I haven't seen full game tape if him.

 

Edit. I read your above post, and I disagree with your assessment of Olli entirely. He didn't look to be a liability last year, or last night. He still has top 4 potential in my eyes, while you seem to have written him off for the most part. This one comes down to a difference of opinion I think.

 

But to say Rathbone is easily more ready for the NHL is just false to me. You are comparing 2 different players skills set based off your opinion. The only factor that's easily measurable is experience which Juolevi pulls ahead considerably.

It is fine to disagree. We're not fighting. :)

 

I think there's more to it than experience, and I also think you're underrating the NCAA game. It's a high-quality league with good competition and is particularly geared toward player development. Jack's 61 college games isn't far off of Olli's 63 AHL games + Liiga experience, especially when you consider how much training OJ has lost to injuries.

 

I think there's lots of measurable things to look at in determining who's more ready to jump into the show. Rathbone's skating is actually phenomenal, and that's the biggest thing that puts him ahead imo. Skating is a huge part of the game for defenders today, and Rathbone's ability in the area should allow him to transition to the NHL game much more easily than Juolevi. He has a great transitional game, and while OJ doesn't slack with his outlet pass, Rathbone can carry the puck out the zone in ways Juolevi can't. Rathbone also has a good first pass and sends teammates on breakaways/breakouts on the reg.

 

Both have good hockey IQs, but Rathbone has a better skill set to use it with.

 

I've seen quite a bit of tape of Rathbone--never watched a full game of his to my recollection, but I've seen enough to know he's the real deal.

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I saw all the elements of Juolevi's game last night despite playing minimal minutes; his calm demeanor on the ice, poise with the puck, and excellent ability to find passing lanes to connect with forwards moving up ice.  All the elements that I had been so excited for when we had first drafted him.  I won't lie I had wanted him over Tkachuk at the time and was starting to lose hope that he would show any promise, but after last night I saw a very bright future for Juolevi as he played such a quiet but steady game.

 

The hope and excitement around  Olli has reignited in me.  I still think he can be an important piece for this team.  Needs more game action and reps to be more comfortable.

 

 

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Hughes didn't have much trouble coming out of the NCAA and come to think of it neither did Stecher or Tanev. Raffery seems to be OK and I'd think Rathbone will make a quick transition. The NCAA does not have any 16 year old (CHA ) in it to run up your stats on.

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1 game down that was considered an exhibition game, but the reality of that game against the Jets, was that it looked a lot like a mid-season game with a complete rosters, true physicality, and full efforts. OJ did not look out of place whatsoever, in fact he made some very astute plays, and his outlet passes led to a couple of decent shots on goals. He might be the best outlet passer on the team, which is exactly what this team needs in aiding their transitions. At 6'3" and 215 lbs, and skates well he could eventually replace Edler as their second LD. Let's hope he secures that third line LD for the playoffs, and watch this young man grow and gain confidence in this years playoffs. Which will hopefully result in him coming into next year and establishing himself as finally arriving. This is the type of story that "Canuck Nation" can truly get behind; never give up, and to have faith in our GM.

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It was at a point with the setbacks that it was hard to count on him becoming a player. I think this was a huge step. Agree completely with the above^ that this was more than just your ordinary pre-season game.

 

Now he was the 7th D, didn't play alot. But all the things he does well were evident in that game. Mentally, he doesn't have any issue with the NHL level game speed.

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In the 1st period last night, he made 2 great plays that really caught my eye. First he noticed his D partner was in trouble, he quickly found separation called for the puck. 2nd great play was immediately after the 1st, he took the puck and with zero hesitation fired the puck up the ice and made a bullet tape to tape pass too the other side of centre. At first I thought he was panicking and dumping it down the ice. Instead it was a very poised heads up play that led to an excellent scoring chance. 
 

I wish he could have had a few more shifts, but being the only tuning up game..... The rest of the D needed lots of game time too. 
 

re-cap...

 

1st great play- creating time and space immediately to bail out D partner.

 

2nd great play- quick pass that was tape to tape and led to scoring opportunity. 
 

Little things that are signs of excellent hockey sense.. And a bright future. 

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He shown us why he was a highly rated prospect at the time of his draft. Injuries really derailed his development. People complain about this pick at #5 and all that, but I know for a fact that even if the Canucks didn't draft him at #5, there is no way he would've fallen out of the top 10 of the draft at the time.

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2 hours ago, GoCanucks16 said:

It is fine to disagree. We're not fighting. :)

 

I think there's more to it than experience, and I also think you're underrating the NCAA game. It's a high-quality league with good competition and is particularly geared toward player development. Jack's 61 college games isn't far off of Olli's 63 AHL games + Liiga experience, especially when you consider how much training OJ has lost to injuries.

 

I think there's lots of measurable things to look at in determining who's more ready to jump into the show. Rathbone's skating is actually phenomenal, and that's the biggest thing that puts him ahead imo. Skating is a huge part of the game for defenders today, and Rathbone's ability in the area should allow him to transition to the NHL game much more easily than Juolevi. He has a great transitional game, and while OJ doesn't slack with his outlet pass, Rathbone can carry the puck out the zone in ways Juolevi can't. Rathbone also has a good first pass and sends teammates on breakaways/breakouts on the reg.

 

Both have good hockey IQs, but Rathbone has a better skill set to use it with.

 

I've seen quite a bit of tape of Rathbone--never watched a full game of his to my recollection, but I've seen enough to know he's the real deal.

Not fighting at all, only a hockey discussion. I apologize if I came off rude or abrupt. I have dyslexia, so I sometimes find expressing my ideas or opinions through writing difficult, and have been told I sometimes come off as confrontational due to me trying to properly develop my ideas through words without sounding like a dumb dumb. I have been on CDC longer then most members here, and one of the primary reasons I spend so much time here is it gives me a chance to work on my writing vocabulary outside of social media (which I don't like at all)

 

I'm asking these questions because I don't really know a ton about Rathbones game. I know he is a very exciting prospect for us and I have high hopes that he could be a future piece for us moving forward. The skating point is very fair. If that's one of Rathbones biggest strengths then that is an advantage in the NHL. I feel many young players regardless of skill set have issues with the transition due to the speed the NHL is played at.

 

I don't think I'm underestimating the college leagues. I know recently many players have had success making the jump to the NHL. I just feel on the case of Olli vs Jack, I believe Juolevi's experience in his men's leagues is a far better benchmark to wether or not a players game till transition cleanly to the NHL. I would argue that the AHL is one of the top leagues in the world, only behind the NHL, and KHL. Olli looked good in his time in the AHL before the injury. But that injury could have really messed up his development. I was very happy to see him looking as solid as he did last night.

 

It will be very interesting to see if either player will be able to make the transition to the NHL next year. I believe Stretcher will walk in the offseason, so there will likely be a 6/7 spot available out of training camp. 

Edited by shayster007
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