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Olli Juolevi | #48 | D

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1 hour ago, John_Guest said:

I was just listening to Brian Burke discuss Juolevi on Sportsnet:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/650/sportsnets-starting-lineup/brian-burke-juolevi-wouldnt-surprised-became-star/

He was saying the year Calgary drafted Tkachuk they had him rated side by side with Juolevi. He said Juolevi was fantastic as a junior. He played like a 24 year old. Burke was impressed by Juolevi's play last night and said it wouldn't surprise him if Juolevi becomes an all-star.

But but the CDC scouts had Juolevi ranked mid-late 1st, what does Burke know?

 

Maybe OJ will be our 4th consecutive Calder nominee ::D

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In case people are interested in draft rankings for Olli

 

1929174869_ScreenShot2020-07-30at4_45_09PM.png.79fdaa8d98db33fb0714c5bf6ed95013.png

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Posted (edited)

Soon we won't be spending much time in the D-zone. That was how the team was constructed in 2011 with Ehrhoff, Hamhuis, Edler, Bieksa, Salo and Ballard. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by playboi19
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Praise to Travis Green once again for walking the fine line between playing the kids and playing the experienced veterans.

 

I was happy to see that physically Juolevi belongs in the NHL. His size helped. He did not shy away from physical contact. He seemed poised and calm. Knowing his own physical limitations he did not try to do too much to show off his skills. His stretch passes were noticeable. I hope we can lock him up to a long term contract at bargain cap value.

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44 minutes ago, Maddogy said:

Praise to Travis Green once again for walking the fine line between playing the kids and playing the experienced veterans.

 

I was happy to see that physically Juolevi belongs in the NHL. His size helped. He did not shy away from physical contact. He seemed poised and calm. Knowing his own physical limitations he did not try to do too much to show off his skills. His stretch passes were noticeable. I hope we can lock him up to a long term contract at bargain cap value.

Yup. 6'3 and just over/under 200 is nothing to scoff at...

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51 minutes ago, Maddogy said:

I hope we can lock him up to a long term contract at bargain cap value.

With only one year left on his ELC, I don’t imagine he’ll have time to really build much value for his next deal. I’d expect he'll re-sign on a very cheap deal, the question is how much term? I’d be surprised if either side wanted to do a long term contract for his next deal.

 

I do agree that a long term deal would have the potential to be a steal for the Canucks. I really doubt Juolevi could command anything over $2M AAV, so if he achieved top-4 status, while playing multiple years locked in at that low cost, it would be a serious bargain.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, GoCanucks16 said:

It is fine to disagree. We're not fighting. :)

 

I think there's more to it than experience, and I also think you're underrating the NCAA game. It's a high-quality league with good competition and is particularly geared toward player development. Jack's 61 college games isn't far off of Olli's 63 AHL games + Liiga experience, especially when you consider how much training OJ has lost to injuries.

 

I think there's lots of measurable things to look at in determining who's more ready to jump into the show. Rathbone's skating is actually phenomenal, and that's the biggest thing that puts him ahead imo. Skating is a huge part of the game for defenders today, and Rathbone's ability in the area should allow him to transition to the NHL game much more easily than Juolevi. He has a great transitional game, and while OJ doesn't slack with his outlet pass, Rathbone can carry the puck out the zone in ways Juolevi can't. Rathbone also has a good first pass and sends teammates on breakaways/breakouts on the reg.

 

Both have good hockey IQs, but Rathbone has a better skill set to use it with.

 

I've seen quite a bit of tape of Rathbone--never watched a full game of his to my recollection, but I've seen enough to know he's the real deal.

So you're basically stretching a narrative by saying NCAA = AHL. Never mind the fact that AHL has some long time former NHL players playing there. Never mind that AHL players in general have more experience than NCAA players. You're saying that Juolevi's experience is basically equal to Rathbone.

 

So here's the thing. The skating thing you're saying is a joke. No one else who is credible to comment on this has said Rathbone's skating is better nor worse than Juolevi's. I highly doubt you saw enough of both players skate to really make that accurate of a comparison. This is not taking into account the difference in level of competition. But to finally clear up the reality of competition - here's what other posters said about NCAA vs AHL:.

tl;dr - every single poster believes AHL > NCAA. Go through both sites (HF/Reddit). Your opinion is just wrong.

 

Source 1


HF Boards

 

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/ncaa-vs-ahl.2441209/

 

For what it's worth, UNB is an elite CIS team and has been for a while. You can't really draw conclusions about the level of competition in CIS/USports based on their performance. Personally I think even a weak AHL team would chew through virtually every NCAA team. I just can't see NCAA defenses being able to handle even the worst AHL team's top players. I wish we had more inter-league games to get some numbers to support/refute these types of questions.

 
 
 

NCAA could win a one-off, but AHL would probably win nine out of ten 7 game series.

 

 

 
^This is pretty spot on. Top NCAA teams would probably have a couple lines that would be fine against a bad AHL team. But in terms of depth I dont see many NCAA standing much of a chance in the long run
 
All in all though the AHL is far higher quality of play than the CIS. For example, the following players graduated from UNB to pro hockey last year:
 
 
 
 
-----------------------------------------
Source 2
 
Reddit
 
 
 
 
level 1
 
CHI - NHL
104 points · 2 years ago
 

AHL is probably the hardest out of all of those.

 

  1. AHL (by a country mile)

  2. NCAA

  3. WHL

  4. QMJHL

 
Edited by Dazzle
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34 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

So you're basically stretching a narrative by saying NCAA = AHL. Never mind the fact that AHL has some long time former NHL players playing there. Never mind that AHL players in general have more experience than NCAA players. You're saying that Juolevi's experience is basically equal to Rathbone.

 

So here's the thing. The skating thing you're saying is a joke. No one else who is credible to comment on this has said Rathbone's skating is better nor worse than Juolevi's. I highly doubt you saw enough of both players skate to really make that accurate of a comparison. This is not taking into account the difference in level of competition. But to finally clear up the reality of competition - here's what other posters said about NCAA vs AHL:.

tl;dr - every single poster believes AHL > NCAA. Go through both sites (HF/Reddit). Your opinion is just wrong.

 

Source 1


HF Boards

 

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/ncaa-vs-ahl.2441209/

 

For what it's worth, UNB is an elite CIS team and has been for a while. You can't really draw conclusions about the level of competition in CIS/USports based on their performance. Personally I think even a weak AHL team would chew through virtually every NCAA team. I just can't see NCAA defenses being able to handle even the worst AHL team's top players. I wish we had more inter-league games to get some numbers to support/refute these types of questions.

 
 
 

NCAA could win a one-off, but AHL would probably win nine out of ten 7 game series.

 

 

 
^This is pretty spot on. Top NCAA teams would probably have a couple lines that would be fine against a bad AHL team. But in terms of depth I dont see many NCAA standing much of a chance in the long run
 
All in all though the AHL is far higher quality of play than the CIS. For example, the following players graduated from UNB to pro hockey last year:
 
 
 
 
-----------------------------------------
Source 2
 
Reddit
 
 
 
 
level 1
 
CHI - NHL
104 points · 2 years ago
 

AHL is probably the hardest out of all of those.

 

  1. AHL (by a country mile)

  2. NCAA

  3. WHL

  4. QMJHL

 

I didn't say AHL = NCAA. You're reading into my post things it did not express.

 

Canucks brass was talking about Rathbone's "elite" skating in the draft day video.

 

I can find numerous sources on Rathbone's skating.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, GoCanucks16 said:

I didn't say AHL = NCAA. You're reading into my post things it did not express.

 

Canucks brass was talking about Rathbone's "elite" skating in the draft day video.

 

I can find numerous sources on Rathbone's skating.

But you did. Here's what you said.

 

I think there's more to it than experience, and I also think you're underrating the NCAA game. It's a high-quality league with good competition and is particularly geared toward player development. Jack's 61 college games isn't far off of Olli's 63 AHL games + Liiga experience, especially when you consider how much training OJ has lost to injuries.

 

This in particular shows that you've watered down the difference of the two leagues, particularly noting that 61 college games "isn't far off" 63 AHL games. Otherwise why bother pointing out the 61 games and 63 AHL games? You seem to have treated them as equals, and this could not be further from the truth. Furthermore Liiga is a professional league (older men play in it). Again, you seem to be shortchanging the competition there as well.

 

Rathbone maybe "elite" in his competition, but does this mean he is elite in his league? Or does the elite description apply to ALL skaters? Juolevi is playing against harder competition, since I've established that AHL > NCAA. Yet just because there is no "elite" description of his skating, it doesn't mean that Rathbone has an "edge" on him either. In fact, both players are apples and oranges in two different leagues. It's like saying that an AHL veteran is "elite" against CHL players. It's taken out of context and you can't meaningfully quantify just how good a player is because of the differences.

 

I'm not hating on Rathbone. I'm just pointing out there are flaws in your analysis. You can't compare Rathbone and Juolevi from two different leagues. You've not seen both of them skate on the same ice surface, so there is no equal ground.

Edited by Dazzle

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Of our current D core only Hughes and Myers (given the lengthy contract) are long term locks so I don't quite understand why some are having this Juolevi v Rathbone or prior to that Juolevi v Rafferty argument. With Edler in his twilight, Tanev and potentially Stetcher gone this fall via free agency and the likes of Fanta, Benn as short term depth pieces, we will have more than enough spaces for these guys to play (provided they prove capable at this level). Moreover if any of our prospects do prove good enough to crack the roster this management has shown the willingness to let those who merit playing time get into the lineup even if it means burying big salary in the minors (Sven) or in the press box (Loui).

 

Remember having competition for spots is a good thing and having good assets in the system whether as depth, in the lineup or as a trade chip is essential. If you look back on our best teams from the WCE era to even the Sedins peak the one thing that we have often lacked is depth and young competition to battle for spots.  

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6 hours ago, Dazzle said:

But you did. Here's what you said.

 

I think there's more to it than experience, and I also think you're underrating the NCAA game. It's a high-quality league with good competition and is particularly geared toward player development. Jack's 61 college games isn't far off of Olli's 63 AHL games + Liiga experience, especially when you consider how much training OJ has lost to injuries.

 

This in particular shows that you've watered down the difference of the two leagues, particularly noting that 61 college games "isn't far off" 63 AHL games. Otherwise why bother pointing out the 61 games and 63 AHL games? You seem to have treated them as equals, and this could not be further from the truth. Furthermore Liiga is a professional league (older men play in it). Again, you seem to be shortchanging the competition there as well.

 

Rathbone maybe "elite" in his competition, but does this mean he is elite in his league? Or does the elite description apply to ALL skaters? Juolevi is playing against harder competition, since I've established that AHL > NCAA. Yet just because there is no "elite" description of his skating, it doesn't mean that Rathbone has an "edge" on him either. In fact, both players are apples and oranges in two different leagues. It's like saying that an AHL veteran is "elite" against CHL players. It's taken out of context and you can't meaningfully quantify just how good a player is because of the differences.

 

I'm not hating on Rathbone. I'm just pointing out there are flaws in your analysis. You can't compare Rathbone and Juolevi from two different leagues. You've not seen both of them skate on the same ice surface, so there is no equal ground.

I'm saying the amount of development they've gone through in their respective leagues isn't much different. Just that Juolevi skates against better competition doesn't mean he's developing faster. Development isn't linear.

 

Rathbone's skating is phenomenal, and we don't need to see both players on the same ice surface to know he's better than Juolevi at it.

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The difference between the two. Juolevi  is a Benning first round pick and Rathbone is a 4th round Brackett pick, Politics with a capital P. I don't think skill will over come envy or until it's too painfully obvious. :rolleyes:

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14 hours ago, Dazzle said:

So you're basically stretching a narrative by saying NCAA = AHL. Never mind the fact that AHL has some long time former NHL players playing there. Never mind that AHL players in general have more experience than NCAA players. You're saying that Juolevi's experience is basically equal to Rathbone.

 

So here's the thing. The skating thing you're saying is a joke. No one else who is credible to comment on this has said Rathbone's skating is better nor worse than Juolevi's. I highly doubt you saw enough of both players skate to really make that accurate of a comparison. This is not taking into account the difference in level of competition. But to finally clear up the reality of competition - here's what other posters said about NCAA vs AHL:.

tl;dr - every single poster believes AHL > NCAA. Go through both sites (HF/Reddit). Your opinion is just wrong.

 

Source 1


HF Boards

 

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/ncaa-vs-ahl.2441209/

 

For what it's worth, UNB is an elite CIS team and has been for a while. You can't really draw conclusions about the level of competition in CIS/USports based on their performance. Personally I think even a weak AHL team would chew through virtually every NCAA team. I just can't see NCAA defenses being able to handle even the worst AHL team's top players. I wish we had more inter-league games to get some numbers to support/refute these types of questions.

 
 
 

NCAA could win a one-off, but AHL would probably win nine out of ten 7 game series.

 

 

 
^This is pretty spot on. Top NCAA teams would probably have a couple lines that would be fine against a bad AHL team. But in terms of depth I dont see many NCAA standing much of a chance in the long run
 
All in all though the AHL is far higher quality of play than the CIS. For example, the following players graduated from UNB to pro hockey last year:
 
 
 
 
-----------------------------------------
Source 2
 
Reddit
 
 
 
 
level 1
 
CHI - NHL
104 points · 2 years ago
 

AHL is probably the hardest out of all of those.

 

  1. AHL (by a country mile)

  2. NCAA

  3. WHL

  4. QMJHL

 

This seems mostly correct, although I’d argue that the tougher conferences in the NCAA (like the WHCA, for example) are closer to the AHL than these HFBoards and Reddit posters suggest.

 

The AHL is still the better league, but not “by a country mile.”

 

I’d say NCAA as a whole is somewhere between the WHL and the AHL, with the weaker conferences being pretty close to junior, and the better conferences being just shy of the AHL, at least when it comes to valuing points and translating player performance to the NHL.

 

 

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1 hour ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

This seems mostly correct, although I’d argue that the tougher conferences in the NCAA (like the WHCA, for example) are closer to the AHL than these HFBoards and Reddit posters suggest.

 

The AHL is still the better league, but not “by a country mile.”

 

I’d say NCAA as a whole is somewhere between the WHL and the AHL, with the weaker conferences being pretty close to junior, and the better conferences being just shy of the AHL, at least when it comes to valuing points and translating player performance to the NHL.

 

 

The CHL seems to be the one in decline for graduates going on to the NHL while the NCAA players continue to make up a larger percentage of NHL rosters.

 

Thirty percent of the NHL (283 players this season) went to college for at least one season, and 71 percent of that group played at least three seasons of college hockey before turning pro.Mar 21, 2018

 

Jun 22, 2019 - The United States has gained the most ground. Last year, 26.5 percent of the league's players — or 286 — were Americans. That was up from 16 percent in 2003-4. The surge in the number of top-tier American players is partly attributable to the expansion of hockey into untraditional, warm-weather markets.

 

Meanwhile the number of CHL players drafted over the past 4 drafts has fallen by 12.7%.

https://stories.featurd.io/2019/06/23/number-of-nhl-draftees-from-chl-in-steady-decline/

 

Not sure what any of this means in terms of ranking the various leagues but I did find these numbers interesting.

 

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4 hours ago, aGENT said:

Well that's an assinine comment based on very little in the way of facts.

Tongue in cheek.

I some times think it's funny how posters get over technical in assessing ( with little in the way of history, knowlege or facts) a player when some times just like any other business it can be a case of favourites

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19 hours ago, Herberts Vasiljevs said:

Yup. 6'3 and just over/under 200 is nothing to scoff at...

That is average size for an NHLer.

 

The average modern NHL player is 6-foot-1 and 199.3 pounds.  

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