Olli Juolevi | #48 | D

[knucklehead91]

22 minutes ago, Honky Cat said:

If you send Rathbone down and keep OJ up, you run into a problem recalling Rathbone. I don't completely understand the ins and outs, but its related to Rathbones bonus's. Thomas Drance spoke about it on SN650. Its not as simple as it sounds.

 

 

But Rathbone is not waiver eligible and OJ is.  Am I right? Ultimately you could lose one guy for nothing. There may be some issues recalling Rathbone, but Id rather have an issue than an absence. Say we lose a couple D in the regular season which happens quite often. You go to call OJ up but hes gone to Montreal because they have no Weber and need some depth on D… The whole point I am trying to get at is to let camp play out… if OJ is nowhere near close to NHL caliber, hes gone and Rathbone is in. If OJ is ready, hes up and Rathbone is down, due waivers. At that point we can possibly look at moving OJ and getting a pick in return, that way we get something for OJ and maximize our assets. Or OJ stays with the club, we move someone else, Rathbone comes up or whatever… first and foremost we should get through camp and let it play out

[captainhorvat]

[Alflives]

49 minutes ago, knucklehead91 said:

But Rathbone is not waiver eligible and OJ is.  Am I right? Ultimately you could lose one guy for nothing. There may be some issues recalling Rathbone, but Id rather have an issue than an absence. Say we lose a couple D in the regular season which happens quite often. You go to call OJ up but hes gone to Montreal because they have no Weber and need some depth on D… The whole point I am trying to get at is to let camp play out… if OJ is nowhere near close to NHL caliber, hes gone and Rathbone is in. If OJ is ready, hes up and Rathbone is down, due waivers. At that point we can possibly look at moving OJ and getting a pick in return, that way we get something for OJ and maximize our assets. Or OJ stays with the club, we move someone else, Rathbone comes up or whatever… first and foremost we should get through camp and let it play out

Old Alf is confused by your post.  I’m pretty sure waivers are one way; on the move down.  Bone can be moved up and down all we like, no? 

[Gurn]

3 hours ago, captainhorvat said:

I don’t but why is he cleared for training camp and still is if he’s not 100

In the entire season, most players will play around 1/4  of their games at less than 100% health.

[captainhorvat]

5 minutes ago, gurn said:

In the entire season, most players will play around 1/4  of their games at less than 100% health.

Cool…

[knucklehead91]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Old Alf is confused by your post.  I’m pretty sure waivers are one way; on the move down.  Bone can be moved up and down all we like, no? 

Yes Rathbone can move up and down without having to pass through waivers. He’s exempt
When I teased about “calling OJ up” and him not being there, its teasing at the stupidity of throwing a guy on waivers and when you need a player, he’s already gone, claimed by someone else when he first got sent down. Its like when you go to look for something because its been out of sight out of mind and them you realize OH SH*T ITS GONE.

So if OJ proves by the end of camp he is a valuable player, he might not make it through waivers, so sending Rathbone down and keeping OJ up, we dont have to worry or run into the issues of someone getting claimed on the way down. OJ stays up and avoids being taken on waivers POTENTIALLY… And Rathbone is exempt from waivers. Its the smarter more logical way of managing our assets. Dont risk waivers. If OJ doesnt prove anything by the end of camp, well then he likely will clear waivers and we wont need to worry. But for now, lets get through an entire camp and pre-season and worry about who stays up who goes down and whos a bust for later… right now these guys need to gut it out in camp and be in game shape and ready to go by the end of camp. Some guys are sluggish to start after the summer, others can step on the ice without missing a step. Its just a bit of timing and adjustment to get back on track and used to the tempo

[Nave]

Perhaps the worst thing about Juolevi's collapse after the bag skate is his teammates yelling at him to get up. Doesn't seem like he's endearing himself to his teammates. Then again, you could say they were trying to encourage him.
Really hope he plays well this preseason.

[Butters Stoch]

I wonder what value he has left. I'm ready to cut the losses if we could possibly get a 3rd rounder or something instead of clinging on to him and getting nothing in return like Virtanen.

[Gurn]

1 hour ago, captainhorvat said:

Cool…

You also forget that last season, starting during the pre season, care was taken to ensure Ollie got properly rested; as he was not 100%.

 

So yah, players play at less than 100.

[GoldenAlien]

8 hours ago, FaninMex said:

Sutter just signed a new contract and is not able to attend because of fatigue which may or may not be because of Long Covid. OJ signed a similar team friendly contract and went under the radar as well.

Or OJ pushed himself to early in the drills trying to impress and when it was time for the bag skate he had nothing left. Remember that there were drills before the bag skate.

Or it was a combination of long covid and to much exertion in the drills

 

Should I continue? We saw a 10 second clip 

I don't know how you interpret "just," but Sutter signed his contract on July 28, the first day of free agency. Juolevi signed shortly after on August 9. There was plenty of time between then and Sept. 23, the first day of training camp, to communicate to the Canucks any health problems they may have had. Canucks have said that Sutter trained fully and was feeling fine until mid-August, weeks after he re-upped. Not that it makes a difference in the case of Juolevi -- he was an RFA so his rights belong to the Canucks regardless of contract status, it's not like the Canucks would cut him off from medical access. Just because his signing is more under the radar than say, Hughes would be, does not mean he's actually under the Canucks' radar. They send people to check on unsigned players in major juniors; surely they check in on a former 5th overall pick they were hoping to make the lineup. 

 

Juolevi did not sign a "team friendly" contract. He signed the only contract he could -- league minimum -- because he has not proven to be anything better than league minimum. He's currently competing against a 33 year old Brad Hunt in training camp and not coming out on top.   

 

OJ wouldn't be the only person to push himself early in the drills, considering the number of first timers who don't even know what's coming next. Juolevi was drafted a year before Green became head coach, this is not his first time at his training camp. Players have said that they go through a rigorous practice beforehand and just a short rest before the bag skate, that's part of its difficulty. Over 200 players have done this over Green's 5 camps, including rookies who have never been to a NHL camp. Only one laid down and refused to get up.

 

Long Covid symptoms, if he has them, does not show up only after he exerted himself in the drills. This is a persistent, chronic condition. Again, you can see videos I linked of NHL's fitness testing on day one. One of the tests literally have players pedaling a bike at pace until they cannot continue anymore. It's highly unlikely that Juolevi can pass all those tests, and pass all the tests back in April that cleared him to play, and is able to engage in high paced drills and scrimmages in all the days after the bag skate, and has long Covid. Your description of long Covid does not fit any known case of long Covid -- healthy enough to play in the best league in the world, but have breathing/ fatigue issues only when in a bag skate.

 

We saw a 10 second clip. Presumably Juolevi's teammates and coaches saw more. Veteran leaders like Myers and Miller made a point to ask him to get up. Green, who rarely criticizes young players in the media, came out and directly expressed his disappointment at Juolevi's performance. He could've just said that the training camp is not over and they're still evaluating all the players, and left it at that. He didn't. Considering Green himself got Covid last year, along with more than a dozen of his players, I would think he knows something about its potential effects.

 

Lastly, it's honestly absurd that people are hoping that Juolevi has a serious, incurable illness than just being plain unprepared for training camp. You can always get better at a bag skate. You can't get better at long Covid. His NHL career would be over. If long Covid is really what you make it sound like -- only flares up in moments of maximum exertion -- he would never be trusted to be on the ice again. What if it happens whenever he sprints to catch up to a forward on a breakaway? Or when he's stuck out on a long shift during the last minute of the game? Or if the games goes into overtime in the playoffs? Is the team supposed to just play with 5 D whenever the game goes past 60 minutes? You're talking about a condition that affects his ability to skate, or even function, at the moments that he has to work the hardest, which tends to be the most critical parts of the game. If he was a Norris level player, maybe a team will take a risk. A guy fighting to be 3LD? No team would think that's worth the trouble.

 

So for his sake, I hope that he's just out of shape, and not hit by some mysterious, undetectable long Covid symptom that only affects him when he needs to work extra hard.

[Pure961089]

Looking back at the hate that I got for saying I thought Rathbone was way better than Juolevi is kind of hilarious now.  

[Pure961089]

3 hours ago, knucklehead91 said:

But Rathbone is not waiver eligible and OJ is.  Am I right? Ultimately you could lose one guy for nothing. There may be some issues recalling Rathbone, but Id rather have an issue than an absence. Say we lose a couple D in the regular season which happens quite often. You go to call OJ up but hes gone to Montreal because they have no Weber and need some depth on D… The whole point I am trying to get at is to let camp play out… if OJ is nowhere near close to NHL caliber, hes gone and Rathbone is in. If OJ is ready, hes up and Rathbone is down, due waivers. At that point we can possibly look at moving OJ and getting a pick in return, that way we get something for OJ and maximize our assets. Or OJ stays with the club, we move someone else, Rathbone comes up or whatever… first and foremost we should get through camp and let it play out

You run the risk of hurting the locker room.  The message you’re sending to the team STINKS. You’re saying is it doesn’t matter how hard you try or if you put more time in preparing than the other guy, you’re still going to be sent down because …..reasons.  Please, at some point you have to bite the bullet and do the right thing  hard work and dedication need to be rewarded.  The only reason this is even a debate is because Juolevi is a 5th overall pick.  Sending Rathbone down in favour of Juolevi after all the hard work would be purely and transparently political.   

Edited September 26, 2021 by Pure961089
Adding to post

[Pure961089]

4 hours ago, captainhorvat said:

There’s a difference between not being in mid season form and showing up out of shape.  A 23 year old athlete shouldn’t be rolling on the floor out of gas within the first 2 weeks of training camp.  

[Locke Lamora]

35 minutes ago, Pure961089 said:

You run the risk of hurting the locker room.  The message you’re sending to the team STINKS. You’re saying is it doesn’t matter how hard you try or if you put more time in preparing than the other guy, you’re still going to be sent down because …..reasons.  Please, at some point you have to bite the bullet and do the right thing  hard work and dedication need to be rewarded.  The only reason this is even a debate is because Juolevi is a 5th overall pick.  Sending Rathbone down in favour of Juolevi after all the hard work would be purely and transparently political.   

Yep. The vets in the room know exactly what’s going on and who deserves to be on the team. IF Juolevi continues to underperform Hunt and Rathbone yet he makes the team over them….that’s not going to go over very well. That’s why I don’t think it’s going to happen.

[Pure961089]

4 hours ago, WeneedLumme said:

You mean why would anybody be allowed to participate in training camp if they are not already 100% in mid-season form/game shape? Gosh, I can't figure that out at all.

 

4 minutes ago, Pure961089 said:

There’s a difference between not being in mid season form and showing up out of shape.  A 23 year old athlete shouldn’t be rolling on the floor out of gas within the first 2 weeks of training camp.  

 Juolevi is one of these two posts.  Can you spot the difference?

[captainhorvat]

10 minutes ago, Pure961089 said:

There’s a difference between not being in mid season form and showing up out of shape.  A 23 year old athlete shouldn’t be rolling on the floor out of gas within the first 2 weeks of training camp.  

 

I agree…this is just unacceptable it’s embarrassing and he shouldn’t be part of this organization 

[captainhorvat]

1 hour ago, gurn said:

You also forget that last season, starting during the pre season, care was taken to ensure Ollie got properly rested; as he was not 100%.

 

So yah, players play at less than 100.

Just excuses for him…he doesn’t have it to be a pro. He can go play in the KHL 

[captainhorvat]

He’s definitely getting waived…organization is done with him

[knucklehead91]

43 minutes ago, Pure961089 said:

You run the risk of hurting the locker room.  The message you’re sending to the team STINKS. You’re saying is it doesn’t matter how hard you try or if you put more time in preparing than the other guy, you’re still going to be sent down because …..reasons.  Please, at some point you have to bite the bullet and do the right thing  hard work and dedication need to be rewarded.  The only reason this is even a debate is because Juolevi is a 5th overall pick.  Sending Rathbone down in favour of Juolevi after all the hard work would be purely and transparently political.   

Okay…. How many bloody times do I have to say this

IF JUOLEVI MAKES AN ARGUMENT FOR A F***ING SPOT ON THE TEAM…. You send Rathbone down. BECAUSE OF WAIVERS

If Juolevi DOES NOT MAKE AN ARGUMENT FOR A SPOT. YOU SEND HIM DOWN, BECAUSE HE WILL CLEAR WAIVERS. Jesus christ.

It sends a bad message if you keep Juolevi if he doesnt make a case for himself. Its understandable if he makes a case for himself to be on the team BY THE END OF F***ING CAMP. Not today not yesterday, not tomorrow, BUT AT THE END OF CAMP. Give him a full evaluation.

THEN MAKE THE DECISION. 
Its a simple conversation with Rathbone if Juolevi plays well enough to be in contention with that final spot.

 

”Hey Jack its Jim calling, you had a great camp and we love what we saw out there. It came down to you and Juolevi, he had a slow start to camp but he finished strong and because we dont have to deal with waivers with you, we are going to have to send you down for the time being so you can get some top 2 minutes in the AHL, while we make some decisions with the big club. We’re going to find a spot for you up here, we dont think we can sneak anyone down on waivers after the camp you guys all had. Go down and keep working hard, you’ve earned an opportunity to play for the Vancouver Canucks, we just need to figure a few things out first. Great camp Jack, see you soon”

 

Guys who have earned a spot in camp have been rewarded a spot. Hoglander in, Player Name out. They are not catering to anyone, they give opportunities to the guys who stole the opportunity. 
 

You also need to consider OJ hasnt really had a healthy camp or been playing at 100% through rehabbing. You need to give him a fair look to really make a decision. CAMP IS NOT OVER. I dont give a flying f*** if OJ gets beat out hands down by Rathbone, I do not care. I want to see a full camp and a fair evaluation first. OJ has spent the last 4-5 years battling multiple knee surgeries, back surgeries and then finally when he earned a shot to play this year he got destroyed by COVID and he was playing pretty solid up until that point. 

[lmm]

12 minutes ago, captainhorvat said:

He’s definitely getting waived…organization is done with him

and yet he is on the roster tonight