Noble 6 Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 2 hours ago, HomeBrew said: The highschool thing is definitely over blown given the fact that he game back to the USHL and continued to lead the league, but it worth noting for sure that it leaves more questions than answers them. Further, some of those clips of "poor quality of competition" are actually highly touted prospects such as some of the more impressive work done in the U18. I do take your point though about whether this style of play will translate. The question then becomes what makes the "razzle dazzle" of a player like William Nylander translate seemlessly, but not the "razzle dazzle" of say Hunter Shinkaruk? Where do you see those differences? PS I should add that I am not 100% sold on Mittelstadt either as a top 3-5 pick, but his skill set does intrigue me as it is exactly what we could use on this team - if it did actually translate. It should also be noted that he is not just a goal scorer, but is very good at being a play maker and pushing the pace with his speed game. I think there's a very fine line that is extremely difficult to navigate when it comes to judging a prospect's hockey IQ and whether it will translate or not. @ForsbergTheGreat already made some good points on the Nylander vs. Shinkaurik question. I'm not sure if there is a definitive definition for hockey IQ and even if there is it's probably extremely controversial. I think there are a lot of different ways a player can be smart. The Sedins in their prime would bring in 2 defenders into the corner and create a 2 on 2 situation, and it would end up with Daniel being alone on front. They recognized how to confuse defenders and open up space at other spots in the rink. A different example would be Laine. If you watch him in the zone, he is amazing at finding that perfect amount of space between him and the defender to release his insanely deadly shot. Here's an example, I can't help myself (the first goal mainly): Then you look at someone like Nylander, who does things a little differently. He has that innate ability to draw in 2 or 3 guys towards him, leaving someone open. He holds on to the puck for that extra second and hits the open man. Another video example: Then there's guys like Crosby and McDavid, who have such insane physical abilities that you need 2 guys just to cover them, always leaving one guy open. Like when Crosby beats his man down low with his insane strenght, edgework, hip positioning, etc and the second defender comes in to support, leaving someone else open. Or when McDavid has the defenseman beat wide so his partner collapses back, leaving someone else open. Those are just some of the ways you could define hockey IQ. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RetroCanuck Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 On 7/1/2016 at 7:02 PM, Odd. said: Since we're looking to finish between 15th overall to 25th overall, I'd focus around there. Kristian Vesalainen would be my pick. 6'3 203lbs. He's a big boy and he's a left winger, a position of need. He's got a heavy shot and he's also very quick. Plays physical too and he's from Finland ;p Another would be Cal Foote. Two way defenseman with offensive upside. Had a really good year with Kelowna this year and might be a top 10 pick. Also a righty to boot, would look nice with Juolevi in the future. An offensive defenseman paired up with a two-way defenseman... He's been compared to with the likes of Brent Seabrook as well so he's a player to watch for next season. Liljegren would be great but he's a top 5 pick. This draft does have some good players in the first round. Not too familiar with the players in the 2nd round and beyond. haha couldn't have been more wrong lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odd. Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 3 minutes ago, RetroCanuck said: haha couldn't have been more wrong lol I was waaay off. Although, Vesalainen was regarded as a top 10 pick heading into this year alongside Comtois but both may not even be drafted in the 1st round. I still agree with my Cal Foote comments. If we were picking around 10-15, Cal Foote would be my guy. Guys a stud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RetroCanuck Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 25 minutes ago, Odd. said: I was waaay off. Although, Vesalainen was regarded as a top 10 pick heading into this year alongside Comtois but both may not even be drafted in the 1st round. I still agree with my Cal Foote comments. If we were picking around 10-15, Cal Foote would be my guy. Guys a stud. HAHA true enough but were way worse then 15. or better...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DownUndaCanuck Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 On 4/13/2017 at 9:56 PM, shiznak said: Arizona still needs a lot of work to do in their rebuild. They are already phasing out the vets (Stone, Hanzel, maybe Doan), and starting to inject their youth in the lineup. So, they certainly won't be trading their first round pick, a guarantee top 8 pick, for a defensemen in his prime years, who might I add is often injured. You also need to realize, by the time Arizona is ready to compete for the playoffs, Tanev will be well past his prime. It would be a complete waste if they trade for Tanev. If Tanev were to be traded, I could see him fetching us a first round pick in the mid-teens, not a top 10 pick. Despite how "weak" the draft is. I agree, they could use a shutdown D-man who's got some years left in him and quite frankly won't want to take another center with a top-3 pick. If they end up picking 2nd overall I say we gun hard for their pick and grab Hirschier. Otherwise, lets see if Strome or Keller are available. They've got Domi as well, and with their top-5 pick they won't need yet another center. We on the other hand have plenty of decent young defencemen, a trade is certainly do-able between these two teams. I'm assuming Keller is untouchable and Strome might be the odd man out, unless they want to fly with Keller, Strome and Domi as their top-3 centers in which case a top-3 draft pick would be useless to them, might as well trade down for Owen or a defenceman. TO ARI: Tanev + 1st TO VAN: 1st or 2nd overall TO ARI: Tanev + 1st + Virtanen TO VAN: Strome or Keller + 3rd round pick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N4ZZY Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 20 minutes ago, DownUndaCanuck said: I agree, they could use a shutdown D-man who's got some years left in him and quite frankly won't want to take another center with a top-3 pick. If they end up picking 2nd overall I say we gun hard for their pick and grab Hirschier. Otherwise, lets see if Strome or Keller are available. They've got Domi as well, and with their top-5 pick they won't need yet another center. We on the other hand have plenty of decent young defencemen, a trade is certainly do-able between these two teams. I'm assuming Keller is untouchable and Strome might be the odd man out, unless they want to fly with Keller, Strome and Domi as their top-3 centers in which case a top-3 draft pick would be useless to them, might as well trade down for Owen or a defenceman. TO ARI: Tanev + 1st TO VAN: 1st or 2nd overall TO ARI: Tanev + 1st + Virtanen TO VAN: Strome or Keller + 3rd round pick i'm loathe to give up on virtanen so early. i'd take the first option: tanev + 1st for Arizona's first or 2nd overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DownUndaCanuck Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 15 minutes ago, N4ZZY said: i'm loathe to give up on virtanen so early. i'd take the first option: tanev + 1st for Arizona's first or 2nd overall. The question there really is, is Hirschier/Nolan going to be as good as Keller or Strome? Probably not, and then, are they 1 x Virtanen less worthy? To be honest Strome and Keller are going to be bonified top line centers in the NHL on the same team, I'd rather go hard for one of them but Hirschier + Virtanen is pretty similar value to Strome or Keller. Either way, we need to pull something like this off to get a top line center. Makes our team better and makes Horvat a much better player too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DownUndaCanuck Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 On 4/13/2017 at 11:27 PM, Eastcoast meets Westcoast said: Liljgren is far better than Hutton at the same age. He is being compared to OEL and if he hadn't gotten Mono there would not be much doubt. He he is a RHD that we had briefly once with Erhoff, except likely better. That team went to the cup finals. Not saying JB should pick him if Nico or Patrick are still on the board, that's up to JB. Any of the 3 are going to help out the team. That being said, Liljegren is a guy that could solidify this defence. If JB can add a mid round pick or SJS wins it all, Go Sharks! Then JB can take the sure thing with his first pick and swing for the fences with his other picks. If JB gets a RHD top flight offensive d man in the mold of OEL/Fowler then I won't be upset. Liljegren and OJ could be a fantastic PP quarterback crew. For all those that cried foul when Forsling was traded, Liljegren is far far better. EW I think Liljegren is going to be this year's Fowler or Chychrun. Whatever the issue is with his defensive play isn't bad enough that he should be dropped so low in people's rankings. He's IMO still a top-10 draft pick and the biggest high-risk high-reward guy of the bunch. He'll probably go 15th overall or something rediculous like that to a very decent playoff team, get sent to the AHL for a bit then burst out in the NHL similar to how the Ducks D-men did. I don't think we should take him if Hirschier, Nolan, Mittelstatd or Vilardi are available, but if we slip to 5th and there's no decent centers to take, Liljegren has to be considered. Makar and co. are decent but their ceiling isn't as high as Liljegren, however they are a safer bet. We took the safe defenceman in Juolevi last year, Liljegren may really explode under the right team and development schemes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post D.B Cooper Posted April 15, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted April 15, 2017 6 hours ago, messier's_elbow said: Have you seen Liljegren play? Why are you so high on him? He's got skill that's not a debate but from what I've seen he needs a lot of work defensively. His d game really isn't that bad. I'm a huge 'Dmen should play D first' kinda guy, but after hearing about Liljegrin from my dad, I decided to scout him. His potential is unreal. The kid skates like no other. He is as mobile as I've ever seen a dman and would change the look of ourbd core totally in 2 years. He walks the line like a 10 year pro. He could turn our garbage PP into something special. I had him at #3. For me, 1-Patrick/Hischier 2-Patrick/Hischier 3-Liljegrin 4-Vilardi/Middlestat 5-Vilardi/Middlestat that is how I'd pick. Id be through the roof happy with any of these 5, but I guess this is how I'd go. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeBrew Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 2 hours ago, Horvat is a Boss said: I think there's a very fine line that is extremely difficult to navigate when it comes to judging a prospect's hockey IQ and whether it will translate or not. @ForsbergTheGreat already made some good points on the Nylander vs. Shinkaurik question. I'm not sure if there is a definitive definition for hockey IQ and even if there is it's probably extremely controversial. I think there are a lot of different ways a player can be smart. The Sedins in their prime would bring in 2 defenders into the corner and create a 2 on 2 situation, and it would end up with Daniel being alone on front. They recognized how to confuse defenders and open up space at other spots in the rink. A different example would be Laine. If you watch him in the zone, he is amazing at finding that perfect amount of space between him and the defender to release his insanely deadly shot. Here's an example, I can't help myself (the first goal mainly): Then you look at someone like Nylander, who does things a little differently. He has that innate ability to draw in 2 or 3 guys towards him, leaving someone open. He holds on to the puck for that extra second and hits the open man. Another video example: Then there's guys like Crosby and McDavid, who have such insane physical abilities that you need 2 guys just to cover them, always leaving one guy open. Like when Crosby beats his man down low with his insane strenght, edgework, hip positioning, etc and the second defender comes in to support, leaving someone else open. Or when McDavid has the defenseman beat wide so his partner collapses back, leaving someone else open. Those are just some of the ways you could define hockey IQ. I would agree that those two examples, creating space by drawing defenders and positioning yourself advantageously, are good indicators of high hockey IQ. I haven't looked at this in depth with the top 5 prospects yet, but where would you determine to rank the projected top 4 centers (Patrick, Hischier, Valardi and Mittelstadt) in terms of IQ? At this point without looking at more tape, I would put Hischier above all of them. But, the use and size of Patrick and Valardi allows them to create space for themselves to make solid plays but neither would be really considered "playmakers". Mittelstadt is kind of a mixture of size, speed and skill and may not use any one in particular more than the other, but also doesn't use any to their full extent either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenhodgejr Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Watching the playoffs and how physically intense they are we are going to need fast skating big hitting players. Virtanen is built for playoff hockey. I would like more big body players and less soft non hitting/fighting players. The refs will let other players take runs at us. We need guys who like to dish it back out. I hope with our second we can add a big body forward who likes to hit and fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runtzguy Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Watched Nolan and Hischier's highlights and to be honest I do not like either of them. However, I keep hearing the name Liljegren and WOW. This is guys really good Offensive Dman. The thing that impresses me the most is how he fakes his slapshots. He looks for an open pass first and if he doesn't see anything then he takes the shot. Also, he can flex his stick like crazy for snap shots and he skates incredibly well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoneypuckOverlord Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, The 5th Line said: Cody Glass is my boy future 3rd line player. that said a good one. Not sure if we willing to use a top 5 pick on a future 3rd line player. top 5 goes like this. 1 and 2 is Nolan nico 3 is Lilgeren 4 is Cale Makar 5 is Martin Necas Edited April 15, 2017 by MoneypuckOverlord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phat Fingers Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said: I think Liljegren is going to be this year's Fowler or Chychrun. Whatever the issue is with his defensive play isn't bad enough that he should be dropped so low in people's rankings. He's IMO still a top-10 draft pick and the biggest high-risk high-reward guy of the bunch. He'll probably go 15th overall or something rediculous like that to a very decent playoff team, get sent to the AHL for a bit then burst out in the NHL similar to how the Ducks D-men did. I don't think we should take him if Hirschier, Nolan, Mittelstatd or Vilardi are available, but if we slip to 5th and there's no decent centers to take, Liljegren has to be considered. Makar and co. are decent but their ceiling isn't as high as Liljegren, however they are a safer bet. We took the safe defenceman in Juolevi last year, Liljegren may really explode under the right team and development schemes. I put him on par with Mittlestad. I would take him before Vlardi. This is were JB's assessment comes in. The safest picks are Nico and Vlardi, they will be top six players. Nico is ranked higher cause he could be a top center. Patrick has more risk, but is built the way a top center should be. Mathews Beta. Mittlestad is playing against weak comp, but shows great abilities. Big question as to what happens when the comp gets better. Vlardi is Bo 2.0 which is great, but is he a 2nd line player or a 1st line player? Top 5 should all become 1st liners or top pairing players. . Liljegren is getting the Chychrun treatment, but it's even less valid. Mono is a really $&!#ty experience. His skills and abilities are not in question, his poorer season can clearly be linked to one event and is understandable. The likely hood of a repeat event is nil, so he should return to the path he was on prior to Mono without much worry. EmW Edited April 15, 2017 by Eastcoast meets Westcoast 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeeBee51 Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 5 hours ago, HomeBrew said: I would agree that those two examples, creating space by drawing defenders and positioning yourself advantageously, are good indicators of high hockey IQ. I haven't looked at this in depth with the top 5 prospects yet, but where would you determine to rank the projected top 4 centers (Patrick, Hischier, Valardi and Mittelstadt) in terms of IQ? At this point without looking at more tape, I would put Hischier above all of them. But, the use and size of Patrick and Valardi allows them to create space for themselves to make solid plays but neither would be really considered "playmakers". Mittelstadt is kind of a mixture of size, speed and skill and may not use any one in particular more than the other, but also doesn't use any to their full extent either. Hockey IQ is also knowing where the puck is going to be before it goes there, How to find the open spaces, how to read the play when your team does not have the puck(who to cover and when). Thats just for starters but probably most of the main ones plus what you already covered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camel Toe Drag Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 8 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said: The question there really is, is Hirschier/Nolan going to be as good as Keller or Strome? Probably not, and then, are they 1 x Virtanen less worthy? To be honest Strome and Keller are going to be bonified top line centers in the NHL on the same team, I'd rather go hard for one of them but Hirschier + Virtanen is pretty similar value to Strome or Keller. Either way, we need to pull something like this off to get a top line center. Makes our team better and makes Horvat a much better player too. Keller and Strome are far from being sure #1 centres. They are both A prospects at this point but I would not sell the farm to get one or the other at this point in their young careers. I don't even think I would do that trade for PLD who was drafted higher than both. If Keller made the switch to wing I could see him being much more successful however. Strome is the definition of underwhelming/ mediocre IMO. He's good but not THAT good. Flame away, but I would not sell valuable assets for either of those two. It's better value for us to draft Nico or Nolan and develop them how we like. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Dizzle Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 2 hours ago, MoneypuckOverlord said: future 3rd line player. that said a good one. Not sure if we willing to use a top 5 pick on a future 3rd line player. top 5 goes like this. 1 and 2 is Nolan nico 3 is Lilgeren 4 is Cale Makar 5 is Martin Necas Not saying you're wrong, but putting up the kind of numbers glass has put up in the W as a 17 year old is pretty impressive... #7 point producer this year. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
73 Percent Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Just now, J-Dizzle said: Not saying you're wrong, but putting up the kind of numbers glass has put up in the W as a 17 year old is pretty impressive... #7 point producer this year. Isn't he like 11 months younger than patrick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Dizzle Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 (edited) April 1, 99 edit: thought I hit the quote button.... response to @73 Percent Edited April 15, 2017 by J-Dizzle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Dizzle Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 4 minutes ago, 73 Percent said: Isn't he like 11 months younger than patrick? I'll ask my buddy who has Cougars seasons tickets what he thinks of glass... he got a pretty good look at him recently lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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