Hortankin Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, manroth19 said: Him leaving shouldn't change the teams plans. We are rebuilding are we not? Tanev should be moved for a mid 1st same with edler for a late 1st/high 2nd (prolly the latter) and replaced with some stop gap dmen via ufa. The organizations goal should be as many picks in the top 65 as possible. Tank away one more season and hope we've acquired enough talent to replaced the sedins. JB wouldn't move Tanev for anything short of a sure thing. We're talking Nylander/Ehlers type of sure thing If Tanev gets traded for anything less than a top 10 pick and/or top prospect I will cheer for the Bruins from then on Burrows got Dahlen Hansen got Goldobin Tanev gets a late first in a weak draft? JB respects players too much too much to just dump them for maybes. Take the Hamhuis situation for example, JB knew Hammer meant more to the team than the low ball offers they were getting on him so he kept him around and let Hamhuis finish out his final year. I say we trade Edler and keep Tanev longterm. Also trade Loui after Sedins retire. Virtanen Horvat Boeser Goldobin (Hischier?) Dahlen Baertschi Granlund Gaudette --------------- Sutter --------------- (Dahlin?) Gudbranson Juolevi Stecher Hutton Tanev Demko Solid core shaping up. Really disappointed in Tryamkin taking off, he could of been a very solid piece for us moving forward. Hopefully JB tries to get him back Edited April 21, 2017 by Hortankin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post kenhodgejr Posted April 21, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted April 21, 2017 We still take the best center available with our first pick. 1.Patrick 2. Hieschier 3. Vilardi 4. Mittlestadt 5. Glass 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiznak Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 With Tryamkin gone, I bet Eemeli Rasanen has skyrocketed up Benning's list. Still hoping for JAD at 33, but its looking more like he's going to be selected in the first round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derp... Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 (edited) I think Rasanen could be available around pick 59 where we get the CBJ pick. I'd rather see us go after a slightly smaller D man with some better skating and passing ability if possible. Urho Vaakanainen Henri Jokiharju Conor Timmins David Farrance Max Gildon Edited April 21, 2017 by Derp... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 6 hours ago, manroth19 said: Him leaving shouldn't change the teams plans. We are rebuilding are we not? Tanev should be moved for a mid 1st same with edler for a late 1st/high 2nd (prolly the latter) and replaced with some stop gap dmen via ufa. The organizations goal should be as many picks in the top 65 as possible. Tank away one more season and hope we've acquired enough talent to replaced the sedins. Tanev is worth at least a top 10. Edler a mid 1st. Both might get a + on that even. It's a possibility. But I doubt management goes that far. We shall see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DownUndaCanuck Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 This Dahlin talk is all a bit much too soon and a bit rich, chances are the Canucks get a decent coach to drag them to 9th in the Conference and the one year they draft low in the rebuild is the year there's a generational future Norris-trophy defenceman. We obviously still need a center badly but now we need some help on defence too with a future top-4 young D-man in Tryamkin out, and we need some size and physicality too. 1) Draft Hirschier > Nolan > Vilardi > Mittelstatd in that order with our early 1st round pick. We'll get one of those 4 centers for sure. They're all about 2-3 years off the NHL anyway. 2) Trade Tanev + 3rd for a mid-1st round pick. Draft a defenceman. Makar if we're lucky, Foote or Liljegren if we're unlucky. Either way there's a future top-4 defenceman. 3 years off the NHL again anyway. 3) In 2018 draft we draft a stud defenceman with our first round pick. Baertschi - Horvat - Boeser Goldobin - 2017 1st rounder - Virtanen Granlund - Sutter - Dahlen UFA - Gaunce - UFA Juolevi - Liljegren Sbisa - Stecher Hutton - 2018 pick Demko UFA 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flickyoursedin Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 19 hours ago, Warhippy said: Chances of him pulling a Parise? Guess the only real way to avoid this is to only draft players from Vancouver! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 39 minutes ago, J.R. said: Tanev is worth at least a top 10. Edler a mid 1st. Both might get a + on that even. It's a possibility. But I doubt management goes that far. We shall see. 17 hours ago, Scruffy05 said: Agreed, Edler is worth at least a mid 1st round pick. I find player valuations on this site to be very intriguing and highly concerning... They seem to prioritize progression much higher than actual value. I don't know where you believe Edler alone is worth a mid 1st. Maybe in the exact right circumstances, but his market value alone likely isn't getting a first. Look through D trades of the last 3 years. D in his range are getting far less. Holden got a 4th Smith only got a 2nd and 3rd Petry (UFA) got a 2nd and 5th Hainsey (UFA) got a 2nd and a low prospect Stone (UFA) got a 3rd Boychick got 2x 2nds Leddy got 4 prospects Garrison got a 2nd Gelinas got a 2nd Bieksa got a 2nd Edler isn't in the Sekera, Hamilton, Yandle, value who were in the 40+ point range. Reinhart was a bad move by the oilers. but Not even Gudbranson got a 1st round pick. The one deal that could give hope is Coburn who got an injured Gudas, + a 1st and a 3rd round pick, but that was a move made by a desperate team at the TD. And even still we can clearly see how much of an over payment that was. Unless we wait for TD and find a very desperate team, we likely aren't seeing that happen. When considering a trade you have to look at all the circumstances. Like Expansion draft, player cap hit, other teams cap, other teams needs, market demand, NTC, and desperation of the demand. If we were moving edler prior to Expansion draft his value is even lower as teams would be required to protect him, forcing them to lose another player of their own. But if we move him at draft day, without adding, expect value close to the Bieksa and Garrison deals. At the time of their trades Garrison 29 years old, .38ppg (previous two years), NTC, Avg 21 min per game, 4 years left on his contract, moved at TD, Garrison + Costello + 7th round pick returned a 2nd round pick., Traded by JB Bieksa 33 years old, .278ppg (previous two years), NTC, Avg 21 min per game, 1 year left on his contract, Bieksa returned a following year 2nd round pick. Traded by JB Edler 31 years old, .31ppg (previous two years), NTC, Avg 24 min per game, 2 years left on his contract, if we were to move Edler alone at draft day, i'd expect a 2nd +, who would be traded by the same guy who moved the other two D. I don't really buy the ice time as I think he'd be better suited playing 18-20 minutes a night as his play is digressed substantially since his back injury. I also don't buy the (+/-) stat that makes people think he's worthless. He's still a top 4 D, he's still a good player but I think expecting a mid first round pick between now and trade deadline for Edler alone is a pipe dream, nothing in the past 3 years of trading supports that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odd. Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 32 minutes ago, DownUndaCanuck said: This Dahlin talk is all a bit much too soon and a bit rich, chances are the Canucks get a decent coach to drag them to 9th in the Conference and the one year they draft low in the rebuild is the year there's a generational future Norris-trophy defenceman. We obviously still need a center badly but now we need some help on defence too with a future top-4 young D-man in Tryamkin out, and we need some size and physicality too. 1) Draft Hirschier > Nolan > Vilardi > Mittelstatd in that order with our early 1st round pick. We'll get one of those 4 centers for sure. They're all about 2-3 years off the NHL anyway. 2) Trade Tanev + 3rd for a mid-1st round pick. Draft a defenceman. Makar if we're lucky, Foote or Liljegren if we're unlucky. Either way there's a future top-4 defenceman. 3 years off the NHL again anyway. 3) In 2018 draft we draft a stud defenceman with our first round pick. Baertschi - Horvat - Boeser Goldobin - 2017 1st rounder - Virtanen Granlund - Sutter - Dahlen UFA - Gaunce - UFA Juolevi - Liljegren Sbisa - Stecher Hutton - 2018 pick Demko UFA I like this idea. We could even package Baertschi/Granlund and try and grab a very good player to play alongside Horvat/Boeser (someone like Chrs Kreider or Ryan Hartman) basically anyone with size and grit to balance out the line-up. Bring up Labate and he'll fit nicely with Gaunce. I'd trade Baertschi, Granlund, Hutton + to get Landeskog anyday of the week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 1 hour ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: I don't know where you believe Edler alone is worth a mid 1st. Maybe in the exact right circumstances, but his market value alone likely isn't getting a first. Look through D trades of the last 3 years. D in his range are getting far less. Holden got a 4th Smith only got a 2nd and 3rd Petry (UFA) got a 2nd and 5th Hainsey (UFA) got a 2nd and a low prospect Stone (UFA) got a 3rd Boychick got 2x 2nds Leddy got 4 prospects Garrison got a 2nd Gelinas got a 2nd Bieksa got a 2nd Edler isn't in the Sekera, Hamilton, Yandle, value who were in the 40+ point range. Reinhart was a bad move by the oilers. but Not even Gudbranson got a 1st round pick. The one deal that could give hope is Coburn who got an injured Gudas, + a 1st and a 3rd round pick, but that was a move made by a desperate team at the TD. And even still we can clearly see how much of an over payment that was. Unless we wait for TD and find a very desperate team, we likely aren't seeing that happen. When considering a trade you have to look at all the circumstances. Like Expansion draft, player cap hit, other teams cap, other teams needs, market demand, NTC, and desperation of the demand. If we were moving edler prior to Expansion draft his value is even lower as teams would be required to protect him, forcing them to lose another player of their own. But if we move him at draft day, without adding, expect value close to the Bieksa and Garrison deals. At the time of their trades Garrison 29 years old, .38ppg (previous two years), NTC, Avg 21 min per game, 4 years left on his contract, moved at TD, Garrison + Costello + 7th round pick returned a 2nd round pick., Traded by JB Bieksa 33 years old, .278ppg (previous two years), NTC, Avg 21 min per game, 1 year left on his contract, Bieksa returned a following year 2nd round pick. Traded by JB Edler 31 years old, .31ppg (previous two years), NTC, Avg 24 min per game, 2 years left on his contract, if we were to move Edler alone at draft day, i'd expect a 2nd +, who would be traded by the same guy who moved the other two D. I don't really buy the ice time as I think he'd be better suited playing 18-20 minutes a night as his play is digressed substantially since his back injury. I also don't buy the (+/-) stat that makes people think he's worthless. He's still a top 4 D, he's still a good player but I think expecting a mid first round pick between now and trade deadline for Edler alone is a pipe dream, nothing in the past 3 years of trading supports that. In all fairness to those other two guys and despite CDC's hate for they guy, Edler's a better D than either of those two even with his 'regression' (which while yes, slightly age related, is far more a reflection of the team around him, than him IMO). It also doesn't consider the context that we all but 'had' to move those guys. We weren't trading from a position of strength with either of those. We don't 'have' to move Edler. We'd 'like' to move Edler. (But again, this is another reason I see Tanev as the easier, more valuable and more likely move). I'll grant you the ED probably goes a long way to nixing much of that ^^^ value though. There's plenty of teams where he'd be an upgrade on their 3rd D. I don't think they'd blink if they can upgrade. Particularly a team like Tampa who is in far more of a 'win now' mode and is looking to lose a lesser player there regardless. They'd simply have two #4 D's to offer the LVK instead of one. They're likely losing one of those guys either way. Upgrading with Edler just makes them better. But I'd be fine moving Edler after the ED but before the draft as well. Especially if we're moving Tanev as well before the ED. Edler's value would be even higher to a contender after the ED (and possibly losing a top 4 D) and there's a couple day window there to make moves. If Benning's willing to move both, that's likely the best route to gain value. Move Tanev before the ED (and before his NTC) to a team that can protect him (ARZ for example) and then Edler between the ED and the draft to a playoff team who just lost a top 4 D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 29 minutes ago, J.R. said: In all fairness to those other two guys and despite CDC's hate for they guy, Edler's a better D than either of those two even with his 'regression' (which while yes, slightly age related, is far more a reflection of the team around him, than him IMO). It also doesn't consider the context that we all but 'had' to move those guys. We weren't trading from a position of strength with either of those. We don't 'have' to move Edler. We'd 'like' to move Edler. (But again, this is another reason I see Tanev as the easier, more valuable and more likely move). How much better is Edler? I have haven't seen a dominate edler in 3 years. Right now I'd take Juice and what he brings over edler. But even still, Is edler that much better that he commands a 1st.. Probably not, so that where the 2nd + comes in the (+) could be another 2nd or a 3rd but alone I don't see teams giving up thier 1st round pick for him. And we were in a position of strength with the other two, we didn't need to move either. Garrison just opened up cap for July first, but it wasnt a need, and same with Juice. We still had a full year on his cap, we probably could have got more had we waited till TD, but I think mgmt was hoping to move Hamhuis at that time and trying to move two D would have been a challenge. 29 minutes ago, J.R. said: I'll grant you the ED probably goes a long way to nixing much of that ^^^ value though. There's plenty of teams where he'd be an upgrade on their 3rd D. I don't think they'd blink if they can upgrade. Particularly a team like Tampa who is in far more of a 'win now' mode and is looking to lose a lesser player there regardless. They'd simply have two #4 D's to offer the LVK instead of one. They're likely losing one of those guys either way. Upgrading with Edler just makes them better. Why pay a 1st for a player that now cost you to lose a player for nothing. That's a double loss..Tampa needs to shed lots of cap, they wouldn't be able to take on Edler without dumping salary. They have some big contract to dish out this summer, they'd have more interest in tanev than Edler. 29 minutes ago, J.R. said: But I'd be fine moving Edler after the ED but before the draft as well. Especially if we're moving Tanev as well before the ED. Edler's value would be even higher to a contender after the ED (and possibly losing a top 4 D) and there's a couple day window there to make moves. If Benning's willing to move both, that's likely the best route to gain value. Move Tanev before the ED (and before his NTC) to a team that can protect him (ARZ for example) and then Edler between the ED and the draft to a playoff team who just lost a top 4 D. I'm fine with moving edler, but 1st round picks on the draft floor hold a lot of value. The only time it happens is when a young top D is up for grabs, not aging D on their down turn. 2 out of 3 years we've moved similar D with NTC at the draft, and neither came close to 1st round pick territory.. Teams would rather wait until UFA than send off a 1st round pick. I think Edler could get a first if were willing to swap 2nds with the team were dealing with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: How much better is Edler? I have haven't seen a dominate edler in 3 years. Right now I'd take Juice and what he brings over edler. Isn't it funny how much 'better' Juice looks on a good team with depth...hmmm. Edler actually looked fantastic at the beginning of the year before things started going South, injuries started piling up and he was back being over extended on minutes and situations again. He was fresh, playing physical and hardly making the mental errors he's famous for on CDC, due to fatigue. Funny how that works... 11 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Why pay a 1st for a player that now cost you to lose a player for nothing. That's a double loss..Tampa needs to shed lots of cap, they wouldn't be able to take on Edler without dumping salary. They have some big contract to dish out this summer, they'd have more interest in tanev than Edler. dealing with. They're losing a player (a #4D) for nothing regardless of trading for Edler or not. Right now, they simply get to pick which one. Adding Edler simply upgrades their 3rd D and gives LVK the option of two, #4D instead of one. I'm fine taking back (or retaining) salary. They could have Tanev instead if the prefer but they'd have to add more to that 14th pick IMO. Edited April 21, 2017 by J.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 9 minutes ago, J.R. said: Isn't it funny how much 'better' Juice looks on a good team with depth...hmmm. Juice looked good in vancouver too, he still played over 21 min a game despite not getting much PP time, unlike edler who was getting 3 min a game. 9 minutes ago, J.R. said: Edler actually looked fantastic at the beginning of the year before things started going South, injuries started piling up and he was back being over extended on minutes and situations again. He was fresh, playing physical and hardly making the mental errors he's famous for on CDC, due to fatigue. Funny how that works... So what your saying it edler isn't a 24 minute D? and is better off with the 20 minutes? The reality is, your memory might be a bit flawed, elder was terrible to start the year off and he actually played more minutes at start this year, than he did at the end. He started this year off with 3 points in the first 20 games, averaging 24:40 min per game. 29 shifts per game and a 51.66% ozone starts 5on5. He ended the last 20 games with 6 points, averaging 24:13, 27 shift per game and only 44.34% ozone starts 5on5. 9 minutes ago, J.R. said: They're losing a player (a #4D) for nothing regardless of trading for Edler or not. Right now, they simply get to pick which one. Adding Edler simply upgrades their 3rd D and gives LVK the option of two, #4D instead of one. Not really, right now the two looks are Stralman and Hedman, Adding edler to their protected list means the two most likely pick ups by VK is a young Koekkoek or their next best D in Sustr. Two players with low cap hits. You're line of thinking only works if you think there isn't much of a skill drop between their current #3 and #4. For example with canucks forward. There's a huge drop between our #7 forward and our #8, Granlund will be protected at #7 and we leave Gaunce exposed at #8. If canucks add another forward to our protected list we lose a way more meaningful player in granlund, than if we were just going to lose Gaunce. Sustr has been tampa best #3 this year. Coburn has dropped down to 16 min at the end and garisson is a turn over machine, tampa is hoping vegas would take one of those two off there cap books. I think people have the old 25 year old, per injury edler in their minds, (even the coaches) take out those years and he's not better than Hamhuis, Juice and slightly better than Garisson. His play over the last 4 years is not of a top pairing D. He's #3 or #4 D in the same way that Hamhuis and Juice were. Again, using the past 3 years of D trading as a reference, it's a pipe dream to think he alone can get a mid 1st round pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Juice looked good in vancouver too, he still played over 21 min a game despite not getting much PP time, unlike edler who was getting 3 min a game. So what your saying it edler isn't a 24 minute D? and is better off with the 20 minutes? The reality is, your memory might be a bit flawed, elder was terrible to start the year off and he actually played more minutes at start this year, than he did at the end. He started this year off with 3 points in the first 20 games, averaging 24:40 min per game. 29 shifts per game and a 51.66% ozone starts 5on5. He ended the last 20 games with 6 points, averaging 24:13, 27 shift per game and only 44.34% ozone starts 5on5. Not really, right now the two looks are Stralman and Hedman, Adding edler to their protected list means the two most likely pick ups by VK is a young Koekkoek or their next best D in Sustr. Two players with low cap hits. You're line of thinking only works if you think there isn't much of a skill drop between their current #3 and #4. For example with canucks forward. There's a huge drop between our #7 forward and our #8, Granlund will be protected at #7 and we leave Gaunce exposed at #8. If canucks add another forward to our protected list we lose a way more meaningful player in granlund, than if we were just going to lose Gaunce. Sustr has been tampa best #3 this year. Coburn has dropped down to 16 min at the end and garisson is a turn over machine, tampa is hoping vegas would take one of those two off there cap books. I think people have the old 25 year old, per injury edler in their minds, (even the coaches) take out those years and he's not better than Hamhuis, Juice and slightly better than Garisson. His play over the last 4 years is not of a top pairing D. He's #3 or #4 D in the same way that Hamhuis and Juice were. Again, using the past 3 years of D trading as a reference, it's a pipe dream to think he alone can get a mid 1st round pick. Bieksa looked old, slow and over matched here before he left. I'd say Edler's sweet spot is right around 22 minutes actually (with depth around him). I'm not talking points, I'm talking about how he was playing (which was quite well). And yeah more and harder minutes at the end of the year = over extended. Tough for any D-men to get points when the entire team can't score. Edler's a complimentary player in that regard and the PP was an entirely separate problem from Edler. Koekkoek isn't eligible FWIW (he's also not likely ready for top 4...yet). They protect Hedman, Sustr and Edler , they're set to lose one of Garrison/Stralman (or a forward), both of whom Edler is an upgrade on IMO. No, I think people can't separate the player from the team is the problem in valuation of Edler. He's still a very good D, his team sucks. Edited April 21, 2017 by J.R. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 33 minutes ago, J.R. said: Bieksa looked old, slow and over matched here before he left. I'd say Edler's sweet spot is right around 22 minutes actually (with depth around him). I'm not talking points, I'm talking about how he was playing (which was quite well). And yeah more and harder minutes at the end of the year = over extended. Tough for any D-men to get points when the entire team can't score. Edler's a complimentary player in that regard and the PP was an entirely separate problem from Edler. Koekkoek isn't eligible FWIW (he's also not likely ready for top 4...yet). They protect Hedman, Sustr and Edler , they're set to lose one of Garrison/Stralman (or a forward), both of whom Edler is an upgrade on IMO. No, I think people can't separate the player from the team is the problem in valuation of Edler. He's still a very good D, his team sucks. Edler an upgrade on stralman? I don't think so, not even team sweden would agree with you on that, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 (edited) 25 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Edler an upgrade on stralman? I don't think so, not even team sweden would agree with you on that, They're pretty much on par with Edler being on a FAR crappier team. Stral is a better skater, Edler has more size. Offer LVK a 3rd or whatever to not take Stralman (if they weren't already taking a forward). Hedman, Sustr Edler, Stral KoekKoek, Coburn Winning. Edited April 21, 2017 by J.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 18 minutes ago, J.R. said: They're pretty much on par with Edler being on a FAR crappier team. Stral is a better skater, Edler has more size. Offer LVK a 3rd or whatever to not take Stralman (if they weren't already taking a forward). Hedman, Sustr Edler, Stral KoekKoek, Coburn Winning. But then you've essentially paid a mid 1st + a 3rd for that top 4. It's paying that much really an upgrade. Hedman, Stralman Coburn, Sustr KoekKoek Dotchin And if they are really consdered they can go after a UFA this summer to. One of Russell, Alzner, Smith, Gelina, Stone, Kulikov will all fill in that hole, And they likely get to draft Foote. But this we've taken this thread off topic, this isn't the edler trade thread, so we should probably get back on topic. 8 days until we find out where we are drafting.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush17 Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 12 hours ago, kenhodgejr said: We still take the best center available with our first pick. 1.Patrick 2. Hieschier 3. Vilardi 4. Mittlestadt 5. Glass is glass a C? I thought he was a winger lol clearly I'm out of the loop lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 Button on 1040: Sees him as for sure top 10, wouldn't be surprised if Hesikanen goes top 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
250Integra Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 I had a dream last night that the Canucks came out with the 2nd overall pick. Looks like we're getting Patrick or Hischier! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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