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Why Your Team Sucks: Vancouver Canucks


MJDDawg

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4 minutes ago, LaBamba said:

I thought he had horrific underlying numbers as well. 

Not if people correctly consider usage, zone starts, QOC , line mates etc.

 

Same 'problem' with Gudbranson. He's got 'terrible underlying numbers' as well until you consider how he was used, who he played against, who he played with, zone starts etc. Then you start realizing he actually looks pretty good for the being the guy tasked with pushing a boulder uphill night in and out.

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6 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Not if people correctly consider usage, zone starts, QOC , line mates etc.

 

Same 'problem' with Gudbranson. He's got 'terrible underlying numbers' as well until you consider how he was used, who he played against, who he played with, zone starts etc. Then you start realizing he actually looks pretty good for the being the guy tasked with pushing a boulder uphill night in and out.

Interestingly enough when contextualizing for those factors it shows his defence isn't quite up to par but his offense is, very much the opposite of the popular opinion on him. 

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6 minutes ago, smithers joe said:

or we can wait and see how he does this season and then judge him. he was brought in to allow horvat to develop slower. we don't know how many points he would have got if he had stayed healthy. fans on here where complaining that bonino's lack of foot speed was holding his line back. pittsburgh put him with 2 speedsters where his lack of speed didn't matter so much..why slag a guy who hasn't even played a full season of games. bonino thrived playing with 2 speedsters. when the right combo of talent and skill play along side sutter, then lets judge him..people don't seem to be happy unless they're tearing the team down. go figure.

I didn't slag the guy.  I said we lost the trade then used stats to back my claim up.  I think Bonino is better than Sutter.  I think Sutter is a good 3rd line C and will be a bad 2nd line C.  I don't see how Sutter allows Horvat to develop any more than Bonino did.  At this point I would argue that Horvat is better than Sutter.

 

You're right.  I do tear this team down like I never have before.  I take no joy in it but I call it how I see it.  I started doing it when they signed Miller/Vrbata instead of rebuilding.  I hope I'm proven wrong and the retool or whatever you want to call it works.  However so far Benning has been been a total disaster. 

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26 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

Once again, points aren't everything.

True.  But they're the most important things for a forward.


 

Bonino wasn't good in the playoffs for Vancouver, which was a big reason why he was traded. 
By that argument the whole team should have been traded other than Edler & Tanev.


He was also brought over to run the 2nd PP unit, which he didn't. I'm glad Bones did well in Pittsburgh, but he wouldn't have had that success here.

Sutter won't have that success here (neither would have Bonino).  But at least Bonino had it in Pittsburgh.  Sutter won't have it here and wouldn't have had in in Pittsburgh either as he's not a setup guy and wouldn't have been setting Kessel up.  Also, the 2nd PP unit sucking is all on Bonino?  There are 4 other guys on the ice with him.

It depends on what type of forward they are. You're acting like Ovechkin is always the better pick over Toews, who is making 10.5M for around 60 points per season. Toews does so much more outside of point getting.

Actually the Sedins were dominating play against Calgary, it was Boninos line that was getting destroyed by Gaudreau and co.

Sutters success is going to be a different kind of success, you obviously have very little knowledge of hockey and how the game actually works. Let me help you out... if only just a little bit.

Playmaking Centres, example being Bonino Jumbo Joe, are probably not the guys you want taking PK draws in your own zone with the opposing goalie pulled with 1:30 left, but you'll toss out there on the PP or when you need a guy who can set up your sniper while your teams top line is facing Weber all night.

Shutdown C, examples being Kesler, Sutter, Toews. These guys win faceoffs and stifle your opponents top line with good defensive play. They don't generally take too many risks, but rather look for the smart plays. Offensively they are in front of the net being a nuisance. They try to be the forward back on the play. This is the type of guy you want out there taking PK draws in your own zone with the opposing goalie pulled with 1:30 left. You can rely on him to win a draw against Crosby or Couture, he at least gives you the best chance to do so.

Bonino isn't even a great playmaker. He's an average second liner who was playing with some pretty talented linemates, especially the speedy Kessel.

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33 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

I didn't slag the guy.  I said we lost the trade then used stats to back my claim up.  I think Bonino is better than Sutter.  I think Sutter is a good 3rd line C and will be a bad 2nd line C.  I don't see how Sutter allows Horvat to develop any more than Bonino did.  At this point I would argue that Horvat is better than Sutter.

 

You're right.  I do tear this team down like I never have before.  I take no joy in it but I call it how I see it.  I started doing it when they signed Miller/Vrbata instead of rebuilding.  I hope I'm proven wrong and the retool or whatever you want to call it works.  However so far Benning has been been a total disaster. 

you definately have more hockey knowledge than me because i haven't been able to make that determination yet. if your right, i'll eat crow. i'm sure you will too. i'm just going to enjoy the team we have.

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2 hours ago, baumerman77 said:

Interestingly enough when contextualizing for those factors it shows his defence isn't quite up to par but his offense is, very much the opposite of the popular opinion on him. 

Which goes to show your 'analytics' guys penchant for outsmarting yourselves.

 

"Interesting" in the sense of how confused you get, trapped in data that dominates you lol.

 

The "analyticzzzz"!!!!  Gudbranson isn't really a shutdown D - but, but he's an offensive dynamo!!  Thanalyticzzzz sayzz zo!

 

Image result for contradiction

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3 hours ago, 5Fivehole0 said:

It depends on what type of forward they are. You're acting like Ovechkin is always the better pick over Toews, who is making 10.5M for around 60 points per season. Toews does so much more outside of point getting.

Actually the Sedins were dominating play against Calgary, it was Boninos line that was getting destroyed by Gaudreau and co.

Sutters success is going to be a different kind of success, you obviously have very little knowledge of hockey and how the game actually works. Let me help you out... if only just a little bit.

Playmaking Centres, example being Bonino Jumbo Joe, are probably not the guys you want taking PK draws in your own zone with the opposing goalie pulled with 1:30 left, but you'll toss out there on the PP or when you need a guy who can set up your sniper while your teams top line is facing Weber all night.

Shutdown C, examples being Kesler, Sutter, Toews. These guys win faceoffs and stifle your opponents top line with good defensive play. They don't generally take too many risks, but rather look for the smart plays. Offensively they are in front of the net being a nuisance. They try to be the forward back on the play. This is the type of guy you want out there taking PK draws in your own zone with the opposing goalie pulled with 1:30 left. You can rely on him to win a draw against Crosby or Couture, he at least gives you the best chance to do so.

Bonino isn't even a great playmaker. He's an average second liner who was playing with some pretty talented linemates, especially the speedy Kessel.

yes ..this.

most have no issue with the trade even after Bonino streaked and had success with 2 star wingers. They had chemistry and Pittsburg won the cup larger due to this lines success. Would another centre have had success with Kessel and Hagelin.. probably.

Will Sutter be an upgrade over Bonino this year on faceoffs, PK, goals and speed and a shutdown role.? yes.

Is Sutter a bona-fide 2nd line centre? no I think he's a tweener, but he's an upgrade over Bonino for sure.

 

The article is hilarious! and from an outsiders view has accuracy in some areas. I'm liking this new underdog role we have. Just cannot wait for the season to start and  show what we really have!

 

 

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Just now, LaBamba said:

I was talking about his time with the Penguins. I remember the nerds up in arms. 

That particular type of nerd overvalues any player with offensively weighted deployment.

Not much more sophistocated tbh than plus/minus.   Obsessed with the plus/minus of on-ice shot attempts.

Extremely undervalue the Manny Malhotras of the NHL - who of course, are the guys that provide the Sedin types with all those opportune zone starts.

 

Nerds prop up reductive, negative-analytical-value "hero charts" to devalue players like Sutter.  

It's crap I say!  

I can't wait to see this guy play a full season here.

Anyone that can put up 20 goals in a hard minutes role with the kind of linemates he had in Pittsburgh deserves an opportunity to step up.

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6 hours ago, oldnews said:

Seriously?  I think you should go read the trade thread instead of rehashing this dead horse.

Yeah, zone starts matter.  Yeah linemates matter.  Etc.

Have a look at who Sutter played with in Pittsburgh - compare them to Kessel and Hagelin (on a third line following the Crosby and Malkin lines) - and get back to us.

Hey, I'll save you the effort.  Craig Adams, Tanner Glass, Joe Vitale, Steve Downie, Nick Spaling.

Yeah - 20 goals playing with those guys = not bad.

This exactly.....

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6 hours ago, CanadianRugby said:

3 points in 6 playoff games is useless?  The team leader had 4 points.  If you want to see useless, look at Sutter's first season here.  Considering how Sutter apparently wasn't brought in to score (and he's never been a setup guy) he better be one hell of a shut down guy (which he's never been).  Because we gave up a lot to get him and now he's getting paid a lot of money. 

He scored 20 goals in his last season with Pittsburgh and had lesser quality line mates compared to Bonino....he only played 20 games last season, why don't you shut up until he plays a full season then talk..

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13 hours ago, alfstonker said:

Don't take up scouting - you haven't a clue. 

 

 

Quote

mccann was a softy that dipsey doodles too much. He played on the perimeter too much, fell down a lot, and didn't seem to withstand the riggors of the NHL. His departure does not heart our depth at all because of the aquisition of Markus Granlund early in the season.

^Let's watch & see how long it takes for him to make an impact in the NHL.   I don't like his playing style. His defensive game needs a ton of work. He needs to get way way stronger.    

Although he has the potential his overall game still needs  a lot of refinement . And he also needs to learn to play a grittier all around  game if he intends to be successful.

 

If you can't admit all of the above is true then you haven't got a clue son, I got 99 problems but scouting ain't one . :bigblush:

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