Putting the kids where they need to be to succeed.

[RetroCanuck]

Last year coaching and management put the young guns in spots where they wouldn't succeed in the way they're projected development looks. Virtanen and McCann on the fourth line will not allow they're offensive game to develop and in my mind can hurt they're development. The kids need to be put into the roles they are supposed to be in to succeed. I see this as a rebuilding team on the fly that has a chance to compete for the playoffs in 2017-18. I think having Virtanen in the AHL or Utica would really help develop his game.

 

Next year

 

Sedin-Sedin-Eriksson

Baertschi-Horvat-Etem--->All have offensive upside that needs to be put to the test.

Gaunce-Sutter-Hansen--->great defensive line with scoring upside

Burrows-Granlund-Dorsett---->hurts granlund but i can see him developing into a good 3rd line centre.

 

Edler-Tanev----->barring a trade(anywhere in lineup)

Hutton-Gudbranson-->good mix of offence and defence skill

Sbisa-Tryamkin-Larsen-Pedan--->give these guys turns to show what they can do and trade one of Edler-Tanev-Sbisa

 

2017-18...Bunch of young kids potentially ready to make the leap

 

Sedin-Sedin-Boeser--->Boeser gets to learn and play beside some of the greats

Baertschi-Horvat-Eriksson--->good mix of young talents with old

Gaunce-Sutter-Virtanen--->Virtanen and Gaunce get to develop they're defensive and offensive ability

Zalewski-Granlund-Grenier--->young kids with some size that can make an impact

 

Juolevi-Tanev--->Solid D with offensive upside, Don't have a set 1st pair but play top two pairs equally

Hutton-Gudbranson--->Good mix offence and defence

Tryamkin-Pedan--->Russian wall. Tough aspect to our team.

 

Markstrom

Garteig/Demko or vet backup(take in some cap in a treated get prospect)

 

Trade the vets missing above and try to get a number 1C prospect to replace Henrik. If players develop as they are believed to then the Canucks could have a very strong young group soon. Canucks have good young depth but need more top line young talent. Maybe at the end of Sedins contract make a trade and then bring them back.

[riffraff]

Seemed to work with Vey.

[You Mad Bro?]

[Green Building]

15 minutes ago, riffraff said:

Seemed to work with Vey.

Nothing works %100 of the time. No-one can say he didn't get a fair shake to prove himself and couldn't. Using Vey as an example to not do it anymore would be silly. 

 

 

[Nuckles80]

34 minutes ago, RetroCanuck said:

Last year coaching and management put the young guns in spots where they wouldn't succeed in the way they're projected development looks. Virtanen and McCann on the fourth line will not allow they're offensive game to develop and in my mind can hurt they're development. The kids need to be put into the roles they are supposed to be in to succeed. I see this as a rebuilding team on the fly that has a chance to compete for the playoffs in 2017-18. I think having Virtanen in the AHL or Utica would really help develop his game.

 

Next year

 

Sedin-Sedin-Eriksson

Baertschi-Horvat-Etem--->All have offensive upside that needs to be put to the test.

Gaunce-Sutter-Hansen--->great defensive line with scoring upside

Burrows-Granlund-Dorsett---->hurts granlund but i can see him developing into a good 3rd line centre.

 

Edler-Tanev----->barring a trade(anywhere in lineup)

Hutton-Gudbranson-->good mix of offence and defence skill

Sbisa-Tryamkin-Larsen-Pedan--->give these guys turns to show what they can do and trade one of Edler-Tanev-Sbisa

 

2017-18...Bunch of young kids potentially ready to make the leap

 

Sedin-Sedin-Boeser--->Boeser gets to learn and play beside some of the greats

Baertschi-Horvat-Eriksson--->good mix of young talents with old

Gaunce-Sutter-Virtanen--->Virtanen and Gaunce get to develop they're defensive and offensive ability

Zalewski-Granlund-Grenier--->young kids with some size that can make an impact

 

Juolevi-Tanev--->Solid D with offensive upside, Don't have a set 1st pair but play top two pairs equally

Hutton-Gudbranson--->Good mix offence and defence

Tryamkin-Pedan--->Russian wall. Tough aspect to our team.

 

Markstrom

Garteig/Demko or vet backup(take in some cap in a treated get prospect)

 

Trade the vets missing above and try to get a number 1C prospect to replace Henrik. If players develop as they are believed to then the Canucks could have a very strong young group soon. Canucks have good young depth but need more top line young talent. Maybe at the end of Sedins contract make a trade and then bring them back.

I was going to say you really were over simplifying things, then looked at your lines and 'bolded' comment and for the most part agree.

 

However, your comment of Virtanen and McCann on the 4th line not helping them I disagree with. Here's why:

 

1. There are many parts of development for a young hockey player, physical, mental, offensive, defensive, confidence, etc.

 

2. If any of those parts are missing (which they generally are for most young players and more than 1 at the start of their career unless they are Eric Lindros 2.0), then putting them in a position 'over their heads' can lead to disasterous consequences otherwise known as 'busting a player'.

 

3. We all saw how much pressure Bo put on himself last year with Sutter out, and that it hurt his game. Now Bo is also an 'exception' when it comes to his maturity, mental prep and attitude. Not all players can withstand that much pressure and failure early in their careers.

 

4. A perfect example of throwing kids into the fire and the sink or swim attitude is the Oilers. Sure their offensive young guns can score, but too bad they have zero ability to defend, play hard and compete. They never learned that in the NHL you can't just rely on your offensive talent to win games, you need to outwork, outskate, out think and out compete.

 

5. By playing Virtanen and McCann on the third and fourth lines, the Nucks were taking a very measured and intelligent approach to development. Both of them had and have deficiencies in their game that need to be addressed and developed. As most here know, they would both have been better off in the AHL to correct those issues but could not given their age. Clearly you recognize this as your roster for this season has Virtanen (I assume since he's not there) in the AHL.

 

6. Virtanen has offensive skill and can score, that won't 'disappear' from playing on the 3rd and 4th lines for a few years (nor would have McCann's). If you believe that, you clearly were not around when the Twins came into the NHL and played on the third for 2-3 seasons, or Kesler / Burr starting on the 4th and working their way up.

 

7. What playing there did and would do for Virtanen (since we can ignore McCann now) is :

 

A. Help him develop his ability to forecheck and get in top of dmen, to hit, this is needed and will be a big part of his contribution to any top line. If we was playing top 2 there is a good chance he'd want to play a 'pretty' game as a young offensive player, and get away from what both this team will need from him and what will make him successful (eventually) at creating room for himself and his linemates offensively in the future - which leads to goals

 

B. His play away from the puck - similar to above - that is a priority for young players to learn in the NHL. You make a bad read, its not like the CHL, where speed or talent of other players makes up, usually in the NHL, you make a mistake, it = a scoring chance and probably is in your net. This is EXACTLY why the Nucks take this approach.

 

C. Confidence. You place a player in over his head, he screws up repeatedly, he loses his confidence and you could bust him. Play him in a role that's manageable, let him get his feet wet and ease him in. Let him find his success via effort and worry less about goals to start and more about 'overall' play and learning the 'right way to play'. The offense generally comes from that over time if you have talent.

 

D. Finally, just the effect on the team. You don't 'gift' players a spot, they earn it. You gift players a spot a mentality of entitlement vs earned trickles down through the team and you no longer have a 'team'. You have a group of those willing to play their hearts out and those who think they don't have to work as hard because of their natural talent and draft position - this guy is not Pavel Bure or Wayne. You don't want a group / a team with that type of attitude permeating, it the quickest way to destroy a dressing room.

 

That being said the third line is the right spot for him if not in the AHL this year. I think Gaunce should be battling for 4c and Bo should be back at 3c so that Sutter can take the heavy defensive lifting. Those 2 lines (2 and 3) are basically a 2a and 2b anyways. But let Bo take a breather on lining up against Kesler and Getzlaf .

 

The Nucks know what they are doing and are doing it the right way.

[RetroCanuck]

9 minutes ago, Green Building said:

Nothing works %100 of the time. No-one can say he didn't get a fair shake to prove himself and couldn't. Using Vey as an example to not do it anymore would be silly. 

 

 

Exactly, you need to put the kids into the lineup where they will succeed. Not fourth line cannon fodder. And considering the personal issues along with Vey, its amazing what the kid was able to accomplish.

[Green Building]

1 minute ago, RetroCanuck said:

Exactly, you need to put the kids into the lineup where they will succeed. Not fourth line cannon fodder. And considering the personal issues along with Vey, its amazing what the kid was able to accomplish.

The only thing I would caution is your immediate assignment of Virt to the AHL. I have no problem with him playing there next season, but if he comes to camp in crazy shape and forces WD to keep him on the roster I'm okay with that as well, 

 

Like you though, I have zero interest in him playing 4th line minutes. The man needs icetime.

[RetroCanuck]

3 minutes ago, Nuckles80 said:

I was going to say you really were over simplifying things, then looked at your lines and 'bolded' comment and for the most part agree.

 

However, your comment of Virtanen and McCann on the 4th line not helping them I disagree with. Here's why:

 

1. There are many parts of development for a young hockey player, physical, mental, offensive, defensive, confidence, etc.

 

2. If any of those parts are missing (which they generally are for most young players and more than 1 at the start of their career unless they are Eric Lindros 2.0), then putting them in a position 'over their heads' can lead to disasterous consequences otherwise known as 'busting a player'.

 

3. We all saw how much pressure Bo put on himself last year with Sutter out, and that it hurt his game. Now Bo is also an 'exception' when it comes to his maturity, mental prep and attitude. Not all players can withstand that much pressure and failure early in their careers.

 

4. A perfect example of throwing kids into the fire and the sink or swim attitude is the Oilers. Sure their offensive young guns can score, but too bad they have zero ability to defend, play hard and compete. They never learned that in the NHL you can't just rely on your offensive talent to win games, you need to outwork, outskate, out think and out compete.

 

5. By playing Virtanen and McCann on the third and fourth lines, the Nucks were taking a very measured and intelligent approach to development. Both of them had and have deficiencies in their game that need to be addressed and developed. As most here know, they would both have been better off in the AHL to correct those issues but could not given their age. Clearly you recognize this as your roster for this season has Virtanen (I assume since he's not there) in the AHL.

 

6. Virtanen has offensive skill and can score, that won't 'disappear' from playing on the 3rd and 4th lines for a few years (nor would have McCann's. If you believe that, you clearly were not around when the Twins came into the NHL and played on the third for 2-3 seasons, or Kesler / Burr starting on the 4th and working their way up.

 

7. What playing there did and would do is for Virtanen (since we can ignore McCann now):

 

A. Help him develop his ability to forecheck and get in top of dmen, to hit, this is needed and will be a big part of his contribution to any top line. If we was playing top 2 there is a good chance he'd want to play a 'pretty' game as a young offensive player, and get away from what both this team will need from him and what will make him successful (eventually) at creating room for himself and his linemates offensively in the future - which leads to goals

 

B. His play away from the puck - similar to above - that is a priority for young players to learn in the NHL. You make a bad read, its not like the CHL, where speed or talent of other players makes up, usually in the NHL, you make a mistake, it = a scoring chance and probably is in your net. This is EXACTLY why the Nucks take this approach.

 

C. Confidence. You place a player in over his head, he screws up repeatedly, he loses his confidence and you could bust him. Play him in a role that's manageable, let him get his feet wet and ease him in. Let him find his success via effort and worry less about goals to start and more about 'overall' play and learning the 'right way to play'. The offense generally comes from that ovr time if you have talent.

 

D. Finally, just the effect on the team. You don't 'gift' players a spot, they earn it. You gift players a spot a mentality of entitlement vs earned trickles down through the team and you no longer have a 'team'. You have a group of those willing to play their hearts out and those who think they don't have to work as hard because of their natural talent and draft position - this guy is not Pavel Bure or Wayne. You don't want a group / a team with that type of attitude permeating, it the quickest way to destroy a dressing room.

 

That being said the third line is the right spot for him if not in the AHL this year. I think Gaunce should be battling for 4c and Bo should be back at 3c so that Sutter can take the heavy defensive lifting. Those 2 line 2 and 3 are basically a 2a and 2b anyways. But let Bo take a breather on lining up against Kesler and Getzlaf .

 

The Nucks know what they are doing and are doing it the right way.

I agree with you for the most part on this especially with Virtanen who has size but playing McCann on a fourth line with Prust and Dorsett does nothing for McCanns abilities which is offence. Personally I think it would have been better for McCann to share some of the load on the 2nd/3rd lines with Horvat. Play McCann with other players that can score such as Baertschi and then see what he can do. Players will only develop if they are playing their style game and then working on the other aspects

[Nuckles80]

Just now, RetroCanuck said:

I agree with you for the most part on this especially with Virtanen who has size but playing McCann on a fourth line with Prust and Dorsett does nothing for McCanns abilities which is offence. Personally I think it would have been better for McCann to share some of the load on the 2nd/3rd lines with Horvat. Play McCann with other players that can score such as Baertschi and then see what he can do. Players will only develop if they are playing their style game and then working on the other aspects

I would agree other than, if McCann is playing 2c he's lining up against Carter/Kopitar, Getlzaf /Kesler. We tried that and saw him get rag dolled. He should have been back in Junior because of his size.

They were (and rightfully so) concerned about injury and impacting his confidence. There was thought behind bookending him with our 2 biggest wingers. (outside of the other points I mentioned)

[RWMc1]

21 minutes ago, You Mad Bro? said:

Wow!! Tom Cochrane really let himself go. The years have not been kind.

[Where's Wellwood]

I don't see Horvat getting 2nd C over Sutter.

[Green Building]

3 minutes ago, Where's Wellwood said:

I don't see Horvat getting 2nd C over Sutter.

I missed that on my first read, I don't either. Especially if WD keeps his word about not playing Horvat with Baer, although that remains to be seen.

[chon derry]

17 minutes ago, RWMc1 said:

Wow!! Tom Cochrane really let himself go. The years have not been kind.

[captainhorvat]

Utica

[Laheys Liquor]

Or... we could just wait until after pre-season and see if he belongs on the team.. I trust management will make the right call here, and they wont be gifting Virtanen a spot by any means. 

Horvat played with Dorsett his first year and he seems to be doing quite fine now.

You could also argue that 'rushing' McCann got us Gudbranson, and I think increasing his value was JB's plan. 

He wasn't very strong on face-offs, and got his chance to contribute offensively when Henrik was injured. I don't think he would of been successful playing in the west for a number of years. 

[Where'd Luongo?]

I'm of the opinion that rookies shouldn't play on lines together. Every rookie (1-3 seasons) should be integrated into veteran lines so that they have a better opportunity to learn, plus that way there is someone to cover them when they make an inevitable mistake.

 

Sedin-Sedin-Virtanen

Baerstchi-Sutter-Eriksson

Rodin-Horvat-Hansen

Burrows-Granlund-Dorsett

 

Edler-Tanev

Hutton-Gudbranson

Sbisa-Tryamkin

 

Markstrom

Miller

 

Personally I feel this would be an ideal way of integrating youth into the lineup rather than having a Baerstchi-Horvat-Virtanen/Etem line that although exciting, would be highly risky. I know I left out Etem and Gaunce, and that Rodin is normally RW, but this is in my opinion our best possible lineup at present.

[PhillipBlunt]

2 hours ago, RetroCanuck said:

Last year coaching and management put the young guns in spots where they wouldn't succeed in the way they're projected development looks. Virtanen and McCann on the fourth line will not allow they're offensive game to develop and in my mind can hurt they're development. The kids need to be put into the roles they are supposed to be in to succeed. I see this as a rebuilding team on the fly that has a chance to compete for the playoffs in 2017-18. I think having Virtanen in the AHL or Utica would really help develop his game.

 

Next year

 

Sedin-Sedin-Eriksson

Baertschi-Horvat-Etem--->All have offensive upside that needs to be put to the test.

Gaunce-Sutter-Hansen--->great defensive line with scoring upside

Burrows-Granlund-Dorsett---->hurts granlund but i can see him developing into a good 3rd line centre.

 

Edler-Tanev----->barring a trade(anywhere in lineup)

Hutton-Gudbranson-->good mix of offence and defence skill

Sbisa-Tryamkin-Larsen-Pedan--->give these guys turns to show what they can do and trade one of Edler-Tanev-Sbisa

 

2017-18...Bunch of young kids potentially ready to make the leap

 

Sedin-Sedin-Boeser--->Boeser gets to learn and play beside some of the greats

Baertschi-Horvat-Eriksson--->good mix of young talents with old

Gaunce-Sutter-Virtanen--->Virtanen and Gaunce get to develop they're defensive and offensive ability

Zalewski-Granlund-Grenier--->young kids with some size that can make an impact

 

Juolevi-Tanev--->Solid D with offensive upside, Don't have a set 1st pair but play top two pairs equally

Hutton-Gudbranson--->Good mix offence and defence

Tryamkin-Pedan--->Russian wall. Tough aspect to our team.

 

Markstrom

Garteig/Demko or vet backup(take in some cap in a treated get prospect)

 

Trade the vets missing above and try to get a number 1C prospect to replace Henrik. If players develop as they are believed to then the Canucks could have a very strong young group soon. Canucks have good young depth but need more top line young talent. Maybe at the end of Sedins contract make a trade and then bring them back.

Hmmmm.....

[Googlie]

2 hours ago, RetroCanuck said:

I agree with you for the most part on this especially with Virtanen who has size but playing McCann on a fourth line with Prust and Dorsett does nothing for McCanns abilities which is offence. Personally I think it would have been better for McCann to share some of the load on the 2nd/3rd lines with Horvat. Play McCann with other players that can score such as Baertschi and then see what he can do. Players will only develop if they are playing their style game and then working on the other aspects

And yet he had his best games and did most of his scoring on that line, being fed juicy passes by both Prust and Dorsett.  They both did the heavy lifting and let him be the goalscorer. After Prust's injury, McCann's production plummeted.

[kingofsurrey]

3 hours ago, RetroCanuck said:

Last year coaching and management put the young guns in spots where they wouldn't succeed in the way they're projected development looks. Virtanen and McCann on the fourth line will not allow they're offensive game to develop and in my mind can hurt they're development. The kids need to be put into the roles they are supposed to be in to succeed. I see this as a rebuilding team on the fly that has a chance to compete for the playoffs in 2017-18. I think having Virtanen in the AHL or Utica would really help develop his game.

 

Next year

 

Sedin-Sedin-Eriksson

Baertschi-Horvat-Etem--->All have offensive upside that needs to be put to the test.

Gaunce-Sutter-Hansen--->great defensive line with scoring upside

Burrows-Granlund-Dorsett---->hurts granlund but i can see him developing into a good 3rd line centre.

 

Edler-Tanev----->barring a trade(anywhere in lineup)

Hutton-Gudbranson-->good mix of offence and defence skill

Sbisa-Trya

Like your post. Agree mostly with  your lineup.

Let Gaunce and Virt battle for the L3 and L 4  spots.... throughout the early season..  move Burrows up to the press box as a healthy scratch..

 

Looks good. 

[Honky Cat]

2 hours ago, Laheys Liquor said:

Or... we could just wait until after pre-season and see if he belongs on the team.. I trust management will make the right call here, and they wont be gifting Virtanen a spot by any means. 

Horvat played with Dorsett his first year and he seems to be doing quite fine now.

You could also argue that 'rushing' McCann got us Gudbranson, and I think increasing his value was JB's plan. 

He wasn't very strong on face-offs, and got his chance to contribute offensively when Henrik was injured. I don't think he would of been successful playing in the west for a number of years. 

McCann wasn't rushed,he earned his roster spot fair and square at training camp...It just turns out that that he didn't have the physicality to withstand an entire season...He will be an NHL top six within 2 years..IMO