Canucks future 1C

[ForsbergTheGreat]

32 minutes ago, TimberWolf said:

Bo is capable of being around a 70 point center but I'd rather have someone so good (90/100 points) that Bo is on the second line.

Sorry but this is exactly what I meant in my post with people having ridiculous expectations of a number one center.  In the last 5 season only 6 players have passed the 90 point mark.  Crosby, Malkin, Giroux, Stamkos, Sedin, Backstrom. Only 4 of those players did this more than once. 

We've been blessed with Hank, but he's not where the bar is set for #1 centers,  If people lowered these expectations to be more realistic they'd see a 70 point center is more of the league average and that Bo is more than able to carry a team.  To add further onto this.

 

In 2016 the penguins won the cup, their #1 center Crosby had 85 points
In 2015 the Hawks won the cup, their #1 center Toews had 66 points
In 2014 the Kings won the cup, their #1 center Kopitar had 70 points
In 2013 the Hawks won the cup, their #1 center Toews had 48 points (80.3 ppg pace)
In 2012 the Kings won the cup, their #1 center Kopitar had 76 points
In 2011 the Bruins won the cup, their #1 Bergeron had 64 points
In 2010 the Hawks won the cup, their #1 center Toews had 68 points

 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

I see a similar role for Bo as well (re: Kesler). He'll be 2C on the lineup chart but likely lead all forwards in TOI when he hits his prime (due to 5v5 matching against the opposition first line, PP, and PK).

 

Hoping to still acquire an elite scoring centre for future 1C duties (hopefully via the draft).

Nolan Patrick would be nice as a forward compliment....you never know.  Next years draft isn't looking too shabby, nothing in the system that looks 1C but sometimes hockey players do better in the NHL than any of the feeder leagues so there is a slim chance we could be in for a surprise.  BO and Sutter are looking like the two centers fighting for the number one spot at this point, it's possible we could be running two second lines for a while.  A hockey trade or UFA signing is likeliest route to fill this spot....but having Hortvat fill that role isn't the worst thing in the world either.

[TimberWolf]

8 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Sorry but this is exactly what I meant in my post with people having ridiculous expectations of a number one center.  In the last 5 season only 6 players have passed the 90 point mark.  Crosby, Malkin, Giroux, Stamkos, Sedin, Backstrom. Only 4 of those players did this more than once. 

We've been blessed with Hank, but he's not where the bar is set for #1 centers,  If people lowered these expectations to be more realistic they'd see a 70 point center is more of the league average and that Bo is more than able to carry a team.  To add further onto this.

 

In 2016 the penguins won the cup, their #1 center Crosby had 85 points
In 2015 the Hawks won the cup, their #1 center Toews had 66 points
In 2014 the Kings won the cup, their #1 center Kopitar had 70 points
In 2013 the Hawks won the cup, their #1 center Toews had 48 points (80.3 ppg pace)
In 2012 the Kings won the cup, their #1 center Kopitar had 76 points
In 2011 the Bruins won the cup, their #1 Bergeron had 64 points
In 2010 the Hawks won the cup, their #1 center Toews had 68 points

 

 

I gave you a preference and not an expectation. Don't take everything you don't like about this forum and apply it to me. That's annoying. I want a center so good there is no debate.

 

Also as we see now, Bo is at best a potentially great second line center or a good first line if we have nothing better. I wouldn't trade Bo for a sack of gold but keep your expectations realistic if you demand the same of others. Bo doesn't compare to any names on your list and would exceed his potential to do so at this time

 

[Hairy Kneel]

It's when we start looking at our forwards that's when I am reminded of why I wanted Tkachuk with the pick. Part of me would want to go back and still switch the pick to strengthen our forward group. But it is what it is. Go Nux Go!

 

[Salacious Crumb]

1 minute ago, Hairy Kneel said:

It'swhen we start looking at our forwards that'swhen I am reminded of why I wanted Tkachuk with the pick. Part of me would go back and still switch the pick to strengthen our forward group. But it is what it is. Go Nux Go!

I believe he is listed as a left winger. But heck ya Go Canucks Go!

 

Perhaps Juolevi makes us forget all about picking 5th rather than 3rd.

[aGENT]

TBD

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

I see a similar role for Bo as well (re: Kesler). He'll be 2C on the lineup chart but likely lead all forwards in TOI when he hits his prime (due to 5v5 matching against the opposition first line, PP, and PK).

 

Hoping to still acquire an elite scoring centre for future 1C duties (hopefully via the draft).

Nolan Patrick would be nice as a forward compliment....you never know.  Next years draft isn't looking too shabby, nothing in the system that looks 1C but sometimes hockey players do better in the NHL than any of the feeder leagues so there is a slim chance we could be in for a surprise.  BO and Sutter are looking like the two centers fighting for the number one spot at this point, it's possible we could be running two second lines for a while.  A hockey trade or UFA signing is likeliest route to fill this spot....but having Hortvat fill that role isn't the worst thing in the world either.

[AlwaysACanuckFan]

For me, unless Benning is in a position to draft a 1st line center in the next couple years I believe Horvat has a great opportunity to become 1st line center when Hank steps aside from 1st line duties. 

[Hairy Kneel]

"The need for forward strength is great with these one's yes."

[DSVII]

I was hoping that McCann and Horvat would become our Kreiji/Bergeron combo, but Horvat alone isn't enough, we'll need to secure a centreman in this draft.

 

Stupid columbus and the lottery....

[messier's_elbow]

I'm one of Horvats biggest fans, but to win the cup you need 2 stud centerman usually... Horvat with another high end young C from the draft and we will be on our way. Our D looks to be rock solid for the future along with our goaltending.

[appleboy]

Last year we all worried about the defense but with the addition of Gudbranson and Juolevi things are looking up. One step at a time.

 

[Stinking Puck]

It will be Bo Horvat all right, but only as part of the trade package to bring a 1C from somewhere else. 

[appleboy]

2 minutes ago, Stinking Puck said:

It will be Bo Horvat all right, but only as part of the trade package to bring a 1C from somewhere else. 

So we will trade a center for a center? 

[erkayloomeh]

I thought a future of bo   mccann sutter  would be an excellent cast of centers. If one of either mccann of bo didnt quite pan out as a number one then certainly i  thought both would pan out as number two's. Sutter is arguably a number two center as well. 

Thats not bad. If we dont find a bonifide number one center im okay with center depth like that as long as we have the wingers to compliment them.

So mccann is gone though. But i still believe in that theory of four strong lines that can defend and score . So if we can find that other second line caliber center i beleive we can win with that. Especially if we increase offense from our d. 

[Crabcakes]

3 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Defining what #1 center is, isn’t an easy task.  I think the problem  when people think of a #1 center players like Crosby, McDavid and Tavares always jump to people’s minds.  There are many different types of centers in the league, so thinking we need an exact replacement for our once 110 point Henrik isn’t exactly a reality.      

 

 

 

Skilled, playmaking center. 

 

Not overly fast of physical, thrives on the power play and it able to put up points. 

 

Sedin, Thornton, Backstrom, Spezza, Kuznetsov, Reinhart, RNH

 

 

 

Goal Scoring Center

 

A fast skating center that likes to score goals. 

 

Stamkos, Carter, McKinnon

 

 

 

All around Offense Lite

 

An offensive focussed center that can score and set up plays.  Not very physical, doesn’t have extremely strong defensive play and often inconsistent from year to year performance.

 

Duchene, Turris, Kadri, Koivu, Galchenyak, Monahan, Scheifele

 

 

 

All around offense Elite

 

Can score or make plays, has some grit to their game and is able to put up bigger offensive numbers. Not overly strong in the defensive zone

 

Giroux, Pavelski, Johansen, Draisaitl

 

 

 

2 way center Elite

 

They can play in both ends of the ice, they can shut down the best players as well as score timely goals.  They also have offensive to their game and can put up around 65-80 points in a season.

 

Bergeron, Toews, Kopitar, Getzlaf and could probably make a case for Barkov, and Matthews reaching this level,

 

 

 

2 way center Lite

 

Two way centers that can’t drive the play as much as “2 way center Elite”,  they aren’t quite as offensively as gifted and will put up 55-65 points in a year. 

 

Kesler, O’Reilly, Backes

 

 

 

All Around Elite

 

Has the ability to do it all.  Score, Pass and drive the play game in and game out.  These are the rare breeds that don’t enter the league every year.

 

Crosby, Malkin, Tavares, McDavid, Seguin

 

 

 

Some of the younger players might be able to develop new skills that would put then into new categories.  Example, right now Monahan and Scheifele are in the “All around Offense Lite” category but as they get older and bigger they could develop into the “All around offense Elite“ or “2 way center Elite”.  Same with Bo, right now most have him pegged into the “2 way center Lite” but if he turns up the offensive he could be put into the “2 way center Elite”

 

 

 

Once you break down the categories centers can be placed it you can start to see how other teams acquired those players.  For example “All Around Elite” & “Skilled, playmaking center” tend to come from picks in the top 3 of the draft, but have been traded before.   “2 way center Lite” tend to be players picked in the late first/second round picks, also very tradable.  In a dream world we get a  “All Around Elite” but those players are rare and are based on pure luck on getting with the new draft lottery.

 

Thanks for posting this useful definition.  It gives some context and a breath of reality as to what kind of future centres the Canucks have.

 

I wanted to add that of the top 30 scoring centres last season, the Average was 64.5 points. 

 

The range was 85 for Crosby and 55 for Sedin. 

The median is 62/63

 

Without crunching the stats precisely, we can see that average is much closer to the bottom (difference of 9.5) than the top (20.5) which would tell us that the stats are skewed by a few really top performers.  Incidentally, only 3 achieved a point per game: Crosby (85 in 80 games), Thornton (82 in 82) and Seguin (73 in 70).

 

Bottom line, the typical #1 NHL centre posts points in the low 60's (60-65)

 

Incidentally, the 2nd group of 30 centers range from 54 to 42 points.  Horvat was #66 with 40 points.

 

[Crabcakes]

I think that Horvat is capable of posting average NHL numbers (60-65 points) if he is given the role of a #1C.

 

If they make Horvat a defensive specialist, his numbers would be somewhat less.  This would depend on whether they could obtain an offensive centre capable of being a #1. 

 

Otherwise, don't they already have a centre who is a defensive specialist (Sutter) who could be a #2? 

 

I think that we're all holding out for acquiring a centre who would at least push Sutter down to the #3 hole.

 

The Canucks could end up being a team with 2  top 6 centres much like the Bruins were with Bergeron and Krejci.  That wouldn't be so bad.

 

 

 

 

[ABNuck]

Couple of points:

1/ I'm certain that Bo will come close to the league average for 1C's...but is average all we're hoping for? I agree with the 1-2 punch (Bo as #2...or as we had a few years back...1b).

2/ I also disagree with the theory that we have no assets worth trading. The media critics have us finishing at or near the bottom therefore making our 2017RD1 pretty valuable. We picked up our stud D with our 2016RD1, so let's flip our 2017 for an upper level 1C on a team looking to free up some cap space. I'm still interested in Sam Reinhart. I realize Buffalo isn't up against the cap right now BUT...they still need to sign Ristolainen this year, they have a TON of contracts coming up next year, AND they have both Reinhart AND Eichel coming due together. How about our 2017RD1 + Jordan Subban for Sam? Their D prospects are weak to average so this may prop it up, plus alleviate a potential logjam/cash crisis in the next 48 months.

[SamJamIam]

2 hours ago, ABNuck said:

Couple of points:

1/ I'm certain that Bo will come close to the league average for 1C's...but is average all we're hoping for? I agree with the 1-2 punch (Bo as #2...or as we had a few years back...1b).

Think about it this way.  If Bo is an average producer for a 1C but is above average in his goals against, he would be an above average 1C.  Depending on how poor defensively some of the 1Cs above him are, he could be exceptional while only posting average numbers.  (See: Krejci, Toews, Kopitar, Bergeron)

[kloubek]

3 hours ago, ABNuck said:

Couple of points:

1/ I'm certain that Bo will come close to the league average for 1C's...but is average all we're hoping for? I agree with the 1-2 punch (Bo as #2...or as we had a few years back...1b).

2/ I also disagree with the theory that we have no assets worth trading. The media critics have us finishing at or near the bottom therefore making our 2017RD1 pretty valuable. We picked up our stud D with our 2016RD1, so let's flip our 2017 for an upper level 1C on a team looking to free up some cap space. I'm still interested in Sam Reinhart. I realize Buffalo isn't up against the cap right now BUT...they still need to sign Ristolainen this year, they have a TON of contracts coming up next year, AND they have both Reinhart AND Eichel coming due together. How about our 2017RD1 + Jordan Subban for Sam? Their D prospects are weak to average so this may prop it up, plus alleviate a potential logjam/cash crisis in the next 48 months.

Just because the media expects us to finish low doesn't mean we will.   No,  we won't compete for the cup,  but we should really make the playoffs.   I'm one of the ones who say we don't have the assets,  and we likely won't....  Even come to this seasons close.  Even a top ten first round pick would need to be added to a real decent player to get a return for anything close to a 1st line center. 

 

Not sure how you can be so certain about Horvat when we don't even know who we have who may be good enough to play with him on the first line.  We have good depth now,  but unless both Virtanen and Boeser become awesome,  we are in tough to acquire that talent in a couple years time. 

 

I really like Horvat.   I like everything he brings both on and off the ice,  and consider him to be a key to our team going forward.   However,  Im not yet convinced he will be quite elite enough to be an ideal first line center.   

 

But then,  Sutter isn't an ideal 2nd center either.   We are going to be in tough to place our talent where they belong in our lineup due to our lack of high end depth....