The BC Real Estate Discussion Thread

[Shift-4]

2 minutes ago, Harvey Spector said:

It's the standard in North America.  Look at the gong show happening in the US right now.  We have a racist TV celebrity going up against someone who looks to be terminally ill with a doctor and an ambulance at her side 24/7.  Compare that to BC politicians and we look quite tame comparatively speaking.

They are taking it to a whole new level down there right now  

[taxi]

http://globalnews.ca/news/2939485/vancouver-mayor-to-release-plan-on-empty-homes-tax/

 

The city finally gets around to implementing change on their own...incredible that both levels of government waited until the market was already in a downturn to do something about it.

[AV's Coin]

On 9/12/2016 at 3:28 PM, Harvey Spector said:

Quick Update for Greater Vancouver:

 

Sales for Sept. 1-11, 2016:

 

Detached homes - 181

Attached homes (condos and townhomes) - 413

 

Sales for Sept. 1-11, 2015:

 

Detached homes - 455

Attached homes (condos and townhomes) - 739

 

So sales are down 60% for detached homes from the same period last year and 44% for attached homes...

What is the sales to listing ratio or whatever it is? What about prices?

 

Hey do you have stats for Victoria? Sales were up in August but I am just wondering if and when the Vancouver market changes will move over here?

[Harvey Spector]

1 hour ago, taxi said:

http://globalnews.ca/news/2939485/vancouver-mayor-to-release-plan-on-empty-homes-tax/

 

The city finally gets around to implementing change on their own...incredible that both levels of government waited until the market was already in a downturn to do something about it.

0.5% to 2% tax.  What a joke  Should be at least 5% or more.  0.5% is pretty much a zero deterrence for anyone...

[Harvey Spector]

52 minutes ago, AV's Coin said:

What is the sales to listing ratio or whatever it is? What about prices?

 

Hey do you have stats for Victoria? Sales were up in August but I am just wondering if and when the Vancouver market changes will move over here?

I can't get accurate numbers for prices or the sales to active listings ratio until the monthly stats come out at end of month.  I will post at that time.  I don't have access to Victoria MLS stats as the Island runs under a different real estate board.

 

I can tell you Victoria is booming.  Check with a local realtor to see if you can get accurate sales stats.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Harvey Spector

[PhillipBlunt]

5 minutes ago, Harvey Spector said:

0.5% to 2% tax.  What a joke  Should be at least 5% or more.  0.5% is pretty much a zero deterrence for anyone...

Gregor Robertson is also a joke. He's just as complicit to this shady business as Clark has been. 

[sameer666]

1 hour ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Gregor Robertson is also a joke. He's just as complicit to this shady business as Clark has been. 

Yes and no. It is very unconventional for a municipality to have a tax in any capacity at all. This should be an issue addressed at a provincial and federal level. 

[taxi]

2 hours ago, Harvey Spector said:

0.5% to 2% tax.  What a joke  Should be at least 5% or more.  0.5% is pretty much a zero deterrence for anyone...

I actually think 2% is quite a bit. I'm assuming that's on the whole value of the property. So that an extra $20,000 on every 1 million/property per year. So on a $2 million dollar house in Vancouver, which is pretty average, you'd be paying an extra $40,000/year. That's quite a lot. You have to keep in mind that these aren't the only taxes these investors will be paying. So if a house flipper buys a house for $2mil then sells it for $2.5 1 year later. Of  their profits already 40k goes to the city. Then they have the transfer tax, income tax, potentially the 15% foreign tax, and then real estate fees on top. When taxes add up, flipping starts to look a lot less profitable. Particularly in a volatile market.

[Harvey Spector]

1 hour ago, taxi said:

I actually think 2% is quite a bit. I'm assuming that's on the whole value of the property. So that an extra $20,000 on every 1 million/property per year. So on a $2 million dollar house in Vancouver, which is pretty average, you'd be paying an extra $40,000/year. That's quite a lot. You have to keep in mind that these aren't the only taxes these investors will be paying. So if a house flipper buys a house for $2mil then sells it for $2.5 1 year later. Of  their profits already 40k goes to the city. Then they have the transfer tax, income tax, potentially the 15% foreign tax, and then real estate fees on top. When taxes add up, flipping starts to look a lot less profitable. Particularly in a volatile market.

This is true but you have to catch the flippers.  They are declaring these homes their principal residence so again the CRA and the government need to crack down on the tax cheats. 

 

2% on a $2 million home is $40,000. Which amounts to around what you'd rent the house for if it had a basement suite. So if these foreigners are not worried about collecting the $40k to begin with then I'm not sure another $40k on top of that as a penalty would be a huge deterrent. Remember there is a reason they keep these properties empty. Because they come and visit a few times a year it's a pain for them to have these homes rented out. I think you have to make the deferent a lot larger like 5% to make it work. 

 

But anyways it's a start I guess.   Now they have to get the other cities involved as well. 

[Warhippy]

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/homeandproperty/incomeless-students-spent-dollar57-million-on-vancouver-homes-in-past-two-years/ar-BBwbsbP?li=AAggFp5

 

Nine students with no apparent source of income bought $57-million worth of single-family homes in Vancouver’s tony Point Grey neighbourhood over the past two years, according to records compiled by British Columbia’s Opposition New Democrats.

The NDP said the purchases are more evidence that authorities have let the region’s housing market overheat beyond the reach of most locals.

 

The properties include a $31-million mansion that Canaccord Genuity founder Peter Brown sold earlier this year to a buyer whose occupation was listed on the title document as “student.”

Four of the sales to student buyers were covered by mortgages from three major banks – a fact that underscores how Canada’s banks are inflating the region’s housing market, said NDP housing critic David Eby, who provided data from his provincial riding.

 

RELATED: Vancouver’s vacancy tax will rely on owners to declare if homes are empty

 

“How did the students qualify for mortgages? Where did that money come from?” Mr. Eby said at a news conference on Wednesday at which he handed out photos of the homes that included the address and the purchase price.

He said this very small sample size of data he has collected offers a snapshot of problems that are likely plaguing the region’s wider housing supply.

 

“If this work were expanded or done in a systematic way by an academic – or a provincial government – it could raise serious questions about the implications of this bank policy of lending to people with no apparent source of income across Metro Vancouver.”

 

Mr. Eby said he obtained the title documents of the nine homes after reading about a Globe and Mail investigation that found Canadian banks allow foreign clients with no credit history, including students, to qualify for uninsured mortgages without verifying the sources of their income. The practice exempts non-Canadians who have money in the bank from the scrutiny domestic borrowers face when buying a home or an investment property.

BMO, CIBC and HSBC provided mortgages to the four students, Mr. Eby said.

 

Late last year, Mr. Eby and Andy Yan, acting director of Simon Fraser University’s City Program, released an analysis of 172 transactions in three expensive Vancouver neighbourhoods during a six-month period ending last year. That study – which ignited controversy for screening buyers for non-anglicized Chinese names – showed almost a third of all occupations listed on titles held by a single owner was homemaker, followed by business people at 18 per cent and students at 6 per cent.

 

More on MSN Money about Vancouver real estate: Cooling Vancouver home sales cramp average price

 

Mr. Eby said he had no way of knowing if the nine students whose real estate data he released were foreign speculators because citizenship is not included on land-title documents. But he said The Globe’s investigation “explained the rapid inflation in real estate values over the last two years, where people have functionally accessed almost unlimited capital as long as they have a down payment.”

 

The federal regulator of financial institutions warned the banks this summer that income verification is lacking for non-Canadian clients and urged them to be more thorough.

Jean-Yves Duclos, the federal minister responsible for housing, said on Wednesday that his government is reviewing this and other issues brought up in another Globe investigation on allegations that speculators avoided taxes in Metro Vancouver’s real estate market.

 

“We are clearly concerned by the fact that there may be ways in which Canadians are not being treated equally in having access to the housing market,” Mr. Duclos told reporters in Vancouver.

 

Mr. Eby said the provincial Liberal government should immediately review all residential transactions across Metro Vancouver over the past two years to identify how widespread these mortgages are and give qualified academics access to land-title and foreign-buyer data so they can identify trends.

 

B.C. Finance Minister Mike de Jong was unavailable on Wednesday, but an open-data project on foreign investment in local real estate will be released this fall, his spokesman said in an e-mailed statement.

He added that the Conference Board of Canada is expected to complete another taxpayer-funded study of Metro Vancouver’s superheated market before the end of the year.

 

The spokesman said the province’s financial-services regulator is focusing heavily on ensuring that B.C.’s credit unions are verifying that mortgage recipients have enough income to repay their loans. Still, he said, these credit unions “are not significantly involved in foreign buyer financing programs.”

[Harvey Spector]

The banks are "legal" criminal organizations. They are complicit in funding millions of dollars in mortgages to foreigners without so much as even looking at their credit history or employment as well as their financial records. 

 

How are these foreigners laundering their down payments into the financial system to pay for these multi million dollar homes?  

 

The fact is if the banks and the CRA had cracked down on the tax cheats and the money laundering years ago we wouldn't be in this position today. The government, the banks, CRA, they have all failed us...

[Harvey Spector]

Canadian banks’ mortgage guidelines favour foreign home buyers...

 

Canadian banks allow foreign clients with no credit history, including students, to qualify for uninsured mortgages without proving the sources of their income – a practice that exempts non-Canadians who have money in the bank from the scrutiny domestic borrowers face when buying a home or an investment property.

 

Those exceptions to the regular rules are outlined in internal documents from Scotiabank and the Bank of Montreal reviewed by The Globe and Mail. Scotiabank’s guidelines specify that loans officers do not need to verify foreign clients’ sources of income if they make down payments of 50 per cent. At BMO, such clients need only 35 per cent down to qualify for mortgages up to $2-million. The criteria from both banks show income verification is also not required for new immigrants who have been in Canada less than five years if they put 35 per cent down.

 

BMO’s guidelines also require clients, including “foreign students with a valid study permit,” to have the equivalent of one year’s mortgage payments on hand at the time the loan is issued.

 

The exemptions appear to be designed to attract citizens of foreign countries and newcomers to Canada as clients by making it less onerous for them to obtain and build credit here. Canadian applicants must still prove their sources of income. Critics say that puts locals at an unfair disadvantage and inadvertently encourages real estate speculation by foreigners who have easier access to credit.

 

The federal regulator chastised the banks in July for inadequate foreign income verification because they can be exposed to more risk if they do not ensure these clients have the means to pay their mortgages in the long term. The regulator also pointed out that banks can be vulnerable to money laundering if they do not verify that a customer’s money was obtained legitimately. The Globe discovered income verification in such cases is still not mandatory at both banks, two months after all lenders were warned to be more diligent.

 

The revelation stems from a Globe and Mail investigation that showed Vancouver real estate speculator Kenny Gu was able to buy and flip several single-family homes – while prices in the area skyrocketed – using credit from Canadian financial institutions. The case demonstrates how property ownership has become complex and shrouded in secrecy as a network of speculators – local and foreign – park money in Canadian real estate. Ownership and earnings are obscured in private contracts, while the players treat properties as commodities, not homes.

 

Documents provided to The Globe showed that Mr. Gu’s speculative real estate deals were bankrolled with down payments from his clients – Chinese citizens who come and go from Canada – and mortgages issued to some of those clients by Canadian lenders without income verification. The records show that Mr. Gu had a stake in some of the properties, and his deals relied heavily on bank financing.

 

In a statement, BMO said it assesses “every customer’s circumstances individually and considers multiple factors.” However, the statement gave no specifics about income verification criteria for newcomers and foreigners. The statement did not address the suggestion it treats people from abroad more favourably than Canadian citizens.

 

Scotiabank said in a statement that it employs heightened due diligence “in other areas” to compensate, such as full appraisals for all properties. It confirmed that this is an exception from its standard policy for income verification.

 

“It’s very lenient,” a loans officer from one of the major banks told The Globe. “The foreigners can just get a wire transfer to cover the year’s payments [to qualify] or even borrow money from a friend or a relative to put money in the account temporarily.”

 

The bank employee – himself an immigrant from China – fears he will be fired if he is named. He said lenders require all domestic mortgage applicants to produce one to two year’s worth of Canadian income tax records and pay stubs. Because that is impossible for foreigners and newcomers, he said, his bank made the changes to attract those clients.

 

In Vancouver, speculators exploited that, he said, to buy properties they had no intention of living in, hold on to them as demand increased and prices rose and then flip them for a profit.

 

“I have seen many people doing this, many times. I have customers brag about it in my office – about how small money they put in and how much profit they got,” he said. “I can say it is a very big share of the mortgage market … it’s out of control.”

 

The Globe surveyed the remaining three big banks, plus HSBC, asking exactly what terms foreigners and new immigrants must meet to qualify for their mortgages. RBC, TD Canada Trust, CIBC and HSBC sent general statements that indicated they are diligent in several areas when approving mortgages, but gave no specific terms for income verification for those applicants.

 

The federal regulator overseeing Canada’s banks sent The Globe a statement, stressing that banks must attempt to confirm income sources – for all mortgages.

“Whether the borrower is foreign or domestic, OSFI expects that institutions will take reasonable steps to verify income,” said a statement from the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions.

 

“Whether the borrower is foreign or domestic, OSFI expects that institutions will take reasonable steps to verify income,” said a statement from the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions.

 

In a strongly worded letter in July, OSFI told banks that rapid rises in the prices of houses in Vancouver and Toronto call for increased diligence because of the risk of defaults if and when “economic conditions deteriorate.”

 

The regulator made it clear it knows income verification is lacking for non-Canadian clients and it urged lenders to be more thorough.

 

“Inadequate income verification can adversely affect the assessment of credit risk, anti-money laundering and counter terrorist-financing (AML/CTF) compliance,” it said. “Borrowers relying on income from sources outside of Canada pose a particular challenge ... Income that cannot be verified by reliable well-documented sources should be treated cautiously.”

 

New Democrat MP Kennedy Stewart, chair of his party’s B.C. caucus, said if a lender does not know exactly how its customers earn their livings, some clients could be able to launder ill-gotten gains through their mortgage payments.

 

“If that income is being used to secure clean Canadian funds from the banks to pay for a house, it’s a very clever way to clean foreign money. That is what this is,” he said. “It’s almost secret and unexposed – and this is so important.”

 

Mr. Stewart, who is also an economist, is pushing Ottawa to examine every factor contributing to real estate price increases, including mortgage financing.

 

“If the banks are helping facilitate foreign demand, we should take action to curb it,” he said. “If this is widespread, Canadians will be outraged.”

 

Christine Duhaime, a legal expert in money laundering, said banks should be particularly worried about real estate purchases like the ones set up by Mr. Gu, in which the titles and mortgages are in the names of overseas clients but someone else also holds a stake.

 

“The bank doesn’t understand what the risk is,” Ms. Duhaime said. “If the bank were to start from scratch, the outcome might be different. They might not issue the mortgages.”

 

The loans officer said his biggest frustration is telling Canadians they cannot qualify for a mortgage because of income requirements, while foreigners with the same down payments and money in the bank get approved.

 

“If local people – when they go to the bank – say ‘I want to buy a property. I have 35 per cent to put down and enough to support one year of payment,’ I have to say no. I have to verify income before I can say yes,” he said.

 

“I don’t think it is fair. And it pushed the market prices so much higher, because the people who are buying don’t really care if they can afford it – they just want to get the property and flip it.”

[Warhippy]

I wonder if there is any precedent for a normal Canadian such as myself to take the banks to court over competition practices such as this foreign mortgage policy.

 

I, a Canadian citizen with income and lifestyle derived from and in canada cannot qualify for the same quality of mortgage as a foreigner in my own country.  I have to produce far better records and back them all up and need to produce a significant downpayment with proof of where the money came from vs someone outlined in your story who is not of this country.

 

Anyone shed light on that?

[Harvey Spector]

Call Rocco Galati. He already is starting a class action lawsuit against Christy and her cronies for her illegal tax. He might be able to help you. 

 

When in doubt call Rocco, he will get things done...

 

ROCCO GALATI

Rocco Galati Law Firm Professional Corporation

Address:
1062 College St
Toronto ON M6H 1A9

Phone #: (416) 530-9684
Email: Contact by email

Toronto Candidate

[Harvey Spector]

Home sales eclipse resources as B.C.’s top source of revenue

 

JUSTINE HUNTER

VICTORIA — The Globe and Mail

Published Thursday, Sep. 15, 2016 3:56PM EDT

Last updated Thursday, Sep. 15, 2016 9:06PM EDT

 

British Columbia will haul in more tax revenue from the sale of homes this year than its combined revenues from the province’s historical economic foundation of mining, energy, forestry, Crown land tenures and natural gas.

The first fiscal update on this year’s budget, released on Thursday by Finance Minister Mike de Jong, forecasts the property transfer tax will bring $2.2-billion into the treasury, a massive increase from the $1.2-billion predicted in the budget introduced in the spring. Direct revenues from the province’s top five resources are forecast to total $1.8-billion.

Skyrocketing real estate sales have slowed dramatically since a 15-per-cent tax was imposed in August on purchases by foreign buyers in the Vancouver region, and that is expected to reduce the province’s take from the property transfer tax next year. In the current fiscal year, however, the housing frenzy has paved the way for a good-news budget on the eve of the next election.

“Suffice to say, it’s been a pretty good year,” Mr. de Jong said, his treasury awash in higher corporate and personal income taxes in addition to the spike in revenue from the property transfer tax. In all, provincial revenues are $2.5-billion ahead of projections in the first fiscal quarter.

Economist Jock Finlayson, executive vice-president of the Business Council of British Columbia, cautioned that the province’s economic growth, which is leading the country, is heavily reliant on a housing boom that is susceptible to a downturn.

“We estimate the residential real estate complex is generating up to 35 to 40 per cent of all economic growth in the province,” Mr. Finlayson said in an interview. That includes new home construction, the renovation industry, and the spin-off industries of intermediaries – lawyers, realtors, home inspectors and others – who profit from the turnover of real estate.

“For the B.C. government, it is producing something of a revenue bonanza. The question is, is it healthy in the long run to be dependent on it, and the answer is no, because you are vulnerable to a painful correction.”

With the revenue, the province will pay down its debt and top up the “prosperity fund” that was supposed to collect the benefits of the as-yet-unrealized liquefied natural gas industry. In addition, the province will funnel $500-million into a fund to help tackle the shortage of affordable housing that has accompanied the real estate boom.

The province is banking on its new tax on foreign buyers to cool the market, and forecasts a drop in property transfer tax revenues next year. However, Mr. de Jong said it is too early to determine just how the tax will change the market. He will release data next week based on August sales, but said those numbers will record only the immediate chill the tax produced, rather than any trend.

Economists are already tracking a marked drop in the real estate market since the tax was introduced.

“Vancouver has quickly shifted from one of the strongest markets to the weakest in recent months,” noted TD Economics, adding that the overheated market turned “ice-cold” in August. BMO Economics also reported a cooling effect: “Sales in Vancouver slid nearly 19 per cent from the prior month (seasonally adjusted) as the 15-per-cent transfer tax imposed on non-resident buyers deterred investors, and likely also caused domestic buyers to step back and observe the fallout.”

NDP finance critic Carole James said the growing surplus, which also reflects growth in employment, consumer spending, and higher-than-expected returns on corporate and personal income tax, should lead to investments in education and social services. “It’s a little bit ironic,” she added, “that the money coming from the property transfer tax is an issue created because this government did nothing to address the affordability crisis for all those years, and now they are taking a portion of that and putting it into affordable housing. But they created the mess.”

Edited September 16, 2016 by Harvey Spector

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Harvey Spector said:

Home sales eclipse resources as B.C.’s top source of revenue

 

British Columbia will haul in more tax revenue from the sale of homes this year than its combined revenues from the province’s historical economic foundation of mining, energy, forestry, Crown land tenures and natural gas.

The first fiscal update on this year’s budget, released on Thursday by Finance Minister Mike de Jong, forecasts the property transfer tax will bring $2.2-billion into the treasury, a massive increase from the $1.2-billion predicted in the budget introduced in the spring. Direct revenues from the province’s top five resources are forecast to total $1.8-billion.

REVENUE FROM B.C.'S PROPERTY TRANSFER TAX

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Skyrocketing real estate sales have slowed dramatically since a 15-per-cent tax was imposed in August on purchases by foreign buyers in the Vancouver region, and that is expected to reduce the province’s take from the property transfer tax next year. In the current fiscal year, however, the housing frenzy has paved the way for a good-news budget on the eve of the next election.

“Suffice to say, it’s been a pretty good year,” Mr. de Jong said, his treasury awash in higher corporate and personal income taxes in addition to the spike in revenue from the property transfer tax. In all, provincial revenues are $2.5-billion ahead of projections in the first fiscal quarter.

Economist Jock Finlayson, executive vice-president of the Business Council of British Columbia, cautioned that the province’s economic growth, which is leading the country, is heavily reliant on a housing boom that is susceptible to a downturn.

“We estimate the residential real estate complex is generating up to 35 to 40 per cent of all economic growth in the province,” Mr. Finlayson said in an interview. That includes new home construction, the renovation industry, and the spin-off industries of intermediaries – lawyers, realtors, home inspectors and others – who profit from the turnover of real estate.

“For the B.C. government, it is producing something of a revenue bonanza. The question is, is it healthy in the long run to be dependent on it, and the answer is no, because you are vulnerable to a painful correction.”

With the revenue, the province will pay down its debt and top up the “prosperity fund” that was supposed to collect the benefits of the as-yet-unrealized liquefied natural gas industry. In addition, the province will funnel $500-million into a fund to help tackle the shortage of affordable housing that has accompanied the real estate boom.

The province is banking on its new tax on foreign buyers to cool the market, and forecasts a drop in property transfer tax revenues next year. However, Mr. de Jong said it is too early to determine just how the tax will change the market. He will release data next week based on August sales, but said those numbers will record only the immediate chill the tax produced, rather than any trend.

Economists are already tracking a marked drop in the real estate market since the tax was introduced.

“Vancouver has quickly shifted from one of the strongest markets to the weakest in recent months,” noted TD Economics, adding that the overheated market turned “ice-cold” in August. BMO Economics also reported a cooling effect: “Sales in Vancouver slid nearly 19 per cent from the prior month (seasonally adjusted) as the 15-per-cent transfer tax imposed on non-resident buyers deterred investors, and likely also caused domestic buyers to step back and observe the fallout.”

NDP finance critic Carole James said the growing surplus, which also reflects growth in employment, consumer spending, and higher-than-expected returns on corporate and personal income tax, should lead to investments in education and social services. “It’s a little bit ironic,” she added, “that the money coming from the property transfer tax is an issue created because this government did nothing to address the affordability crisis for all those years, and now they are taking a portion of that and putting it into affordable housing. But they created the mess.”

I really don't know if housing as the biggest part of GDP is a big deal or not, but isn't it unusual to have an economic base in it?  What happens to such an economy when the population stops growing?  I could be wrong, but aren't there a lot of empty condo towers in parts of China for this very reason, no population growth?

[Harvey Spector]

So the PTT will bring in $2.2 Billion in revenue while everything else combined will bring in $1.8 Billion. No wonder Christy didn't want this gravy train to stop. These numbers look great when they come out right before an election. 

Edited September 16, 2016 by Harvey Spector

[Harvey Spector]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

I really don't know if housing as the biggest part of GDP is a big deal or not, but isn't it unusual to have an economic base in it?  What happens to such an economy when the population stops growing?  I could be wrong, but aren't there a lot of empty condo towers in parts of China for this very reason, no population growth?

What's gonna happen is if this party ends and the revenue from real estate plummets we will go into a major recession with high unemployment. This of course won't happen until after Christy is re-elected. That's her plan anyways. 

[Alflives]

Just now, Harvey Spector said:

What's gonna happen is if this party ends and the revenue from real estate plummets we will go into a major recession with high unemployment. This of course won't happen until after Christy is re-elected. That's her plan anyways. 

That makes a lot of sense.  I have just never heard of an economy based on housing growth.  Is this not like a house built from a deck of cards?  I don't see a solid foundation for the economy.  

[Harvey Spector]

6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

That makes a lot of sense.  I have just never heard of an economy based on housing growth.  Is this not like a house built from a deck of cards?  I don't see a solid foundation for the economy.  

I don't recall in my lifetime ever having revenue from real estate that high. I mean it's more than the the amount of all others combined. Scary sh**. 

 

Yes if this market does collapse our economy will collapse with it. 

 

It's funny that after all these years and billions made from the PTT Christy is now going to throw a measly $500 million of those billions into addressing the affordability crisis. What a joke. It's like the US bombing and destroying Iraq and stealing all their oil and then going back a year later to try and re-build the country. 

 

Oh wait, the US really did do that...  

Edited September 16, 2016 by Harvey Spector