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Hey Willie- Time to do something different


captaincowbasher

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2 minutes ago, captaincowbasher said:

guess what, I've been to games this year and the seats are a plenty empty, so I guess some fans are a little more astute then owners think. I cannot rationalize spending anymore money on a team that i love, revel in slow, boring hockey. The place was loudest when Gudbranson drop the mitts with Kassian.

I agree with you.  The owner and JB don't really have a true understanding of what we want as fans.  We want hope for an exciting future.  We want more Bo Horvats - young exciting players to cheer for.  WE KNOW THE TEINS TIME IS OVER. 

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20 minutes ago, captaincowbasher said:

agreed

 

Too many veteran  players are mostly concerned with their own ice time  / zone starts and production.  Everyone has a short time in the league and an even shorter time as a high wage earning vet.  Every few extra points will factor into the next contract.   Would you be excited about a younger guy at  your job taking over from you and your salary getting reduced....  your boss no longer asks for  / values your opinion......

Hockey teams are a workplace for players.....   Players are trying to maximize salary to take care of their families....

 

If the vets are sat or given less icetime - it will cost them financially. 

 

Thats what i do love about guys like Higgins and Burrows. They just wanna win and don't care about their production. They will play any role the coach asks to the best of their ability.  That is character.  

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21 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I agree with you.  The owner and JB don't really have a true understanding of what we want as fans.  We want hope for an exciting future.  We want more Bo Horvats - young exciting players to cheer for.  WE KNOW THE TEINS TIME IS OVER. 

 

As Tiger Williams once said  " they are done like Dinner "

 

I sure wish we had a character like Tiger on our team this year......  true  sandpaper......

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11 hours ago, shattenkirk8 said:

If only we found the right line combo, then we could win the cup

 

 

Well put. I was going to say that changing the line combinations and changing how we assign numbers to lines (first, second, etc.) is too much like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Right now the Canucks do not appear to have enough talent at the forward position and just rearranging lines won't change that.

 

It seems that age has finally caught up with Sedins. Eriksson is experiencing regression to the mean after a big year last year, Horvat and Sutter and good players, but not great players and cannot carry the team. Gaunce has 2 pts in 29 NHL games. Virtanen has 14 pts in 63 NHL game or about 0.22 PPG -- a bit less than you would expect of a solid 4th liner, and Skille is like the definition of a replacement player -- at best a marginal 4th liner at the NHL level, etc.

 

And it seems like the Canucks mishandled Rodin -- overplaying him in preseason and causing a setback. Rodin is now seeing his own doctor for a second opinion. The Canucks say they are all in favor, but any time a player gets his own doctor, that is a bad sign.

 

Too bad we don't have more Jannik Hansen's. He makes whichever line he is on better. He is good on the first line. perfect for the second line, great on the third line, and an excellent guy on the 4th line. Maybe the Canucks can just play him on every line. And Granlund has been pretty good also. But, add it up and we can see why the Canucks are last in the league in scoring.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Legendary10 said:

Sorry if this is the wrong post to say this is but I thought the title would be relevant and didn't want to to start a new thread in fear of getting vilified. 

 

If if we all know that we're not contenders, would it not make sense to play the young guys more?  Instead of protecting these guys from failure, why not put them in a position to succeed more rapidly. We're supposed to have a good core leadership, wouldn't that be enough to show the kids how to play, behave, speak, act and grow as professional hockey players?  I'm sure our veteran players wouldn't grumble about reduced rows but understand that to help this team mature faster, they have to show true professionalism and be mentors to the kids. 

So by not worrying about succeeding, we will put the young guys in a position to succeed.  NAILED IT.  Why protect them from failure?  Failure is where greatness is born right?

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11 hours ago, Oregon.Duck said:

Instead of trying to put a label on lines, how about just letting them play, gel, create some chemistry, and earn playing time. So I agree with you to a degree, but we need to get out of the EA Sports mindset of setting lines in a designated order.

 

I do beg to differ with regards to the Sedin's. They still are our most talented players, albeit they're slowing down significantly. Benching our best players doesn't get anyone anywhere.

 

 

But eh, what do I know, as I always say, I'll never make a definitive point on how to run a sports team. These people are in their positions for a reason, they've earned it through years of hard work. Let's not belittle them by thinking we can do their jobs better.

 

Yes, but to succeed, Benning needs to be a better GM than other GMs, not just be more knowledgeable that us. And we can assess how he is done relative to other GMs.

To put the point differently, I freely admit that guys like Bartkowski or Prust are vastly better hockey players than I am or ever was. But I can still see that they not good enough to contribute much at the NHL level and it does not surprise me that neither one has an NHL contract this year.  I can also see that Virtanen is performing like an NHL 4th liner while Nylander is a solid top 6 forward on a trajectory to be a star.

 

Benning signed Bart, traded for Prust (and overpaid both guys) and picked Virtanen over Nylander (and Ehlers), not to mention paying big money for Eriksson for a 6-year deal despite his age. I am not saying I knew any better but I am saying that those moves and many others are not looking good relative to what other GMs have done.

 

 

 

11 hours ago, mll said:

 

Sedins Eriksson is not working re lack of foot-speed.

Also Baer-Horvat-Virtanen is not really a natural chemistry given their different style of play - Baer the odd man out.   Maybe it's because of usage - they were used offensively but Baer looked more recognisable with Granlund as his C.

 

Good call. I like Baer with Granlund, Virtanen with Horvat, and the Sedins with Hansen instead of Eriksson. That leaves Eriksson with Sutter. Burrows, Dorsett and Gaunce or Skille can slot into wing positions, and that would give the Canucks 4 decent lines. I still don't think they have enough talent to contend, but I like those line combinations best.

 

11 hours ago, Baggins said:

 

You can call the Sedins the 4th line if you want but the opposition is still going to play their top defenders against them not Bo. :lol:

Yes, for a while yet the Sedins will attract the other teams' top D pairing and a lot of attention from good shutdown forwards. But sooner or later other team will change match-ups if the Sedins don't pick up the pace. If the Sedins are still playing like borderline second liners in January (as they are now -- and that is pretty good for 36-year-olds) look for other teams to start making the switch.

 

And, frankly, if no one can overtake the Sedins as the Canucks top forwards, we are in for a very low-scoring season.

 

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2 hours ago, WhoseTruckWasIt said:

So by not worrying about succeeding, we will put the young guys in a position to succeed.  NAILED IT.  Why protect them from failure?  Failure is where greatness is born right?

 

Now it seems like you really NAILED IT. To my knowledge, Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, Toews, Kane, heck the Sedins and Kesler all experienced losing and the weight of expectations. You do not know what you have until you play these players. Just letting them sit there while coddling works for some, but not the truly elite players. Who knows what we have unless you test them? 

 

Playing guys like Prust, Burrows, Sbisa, Larsen, Weber, Bartkowski, Vey, higgins does not really make a lot of sense since you kind of get the drift that these guys are what they are, marginal NHL players at this point. Play the youngsters that you have, and work with them rather than trying to shelter them, these are competitive professional athletes, if they are worth their salt they will step up to the challenge and learn like the greats did.

 

This is why they brought Willie "I won a calder cup with youngsters" D was brought in to do, so far who has he developed? Horvat? He would have been developed no matter who was coach because he has that inner will to succeed. The rest need guidance and good coaching to reach their potential. 

 

Once again, you are the purveyor of all hockey knowledge and correct yet again. 

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4 hours ago, captaincowbasher said:

not for long because that would mean their top D pairing would be on for 12-15 minutes per game...

44 minutes ago, Baggins said:

And their other 8 minutes would be on Sutter.

Bingo. Or if not Sutter's line, someone else's. They wouldn't just sit and wait for the Sedins, they'd be used in part against other lines as well.

 

So you want the other team's top pairing and defensive forwards to have more minutes to play against our other lines who are already producing less? And how about if the Sedins produce more than they are already if they happen to get away from top matchups while the other lines suffer, do they stay in this reverse order? Yeah, didn't think so.

 

4 hours ago, captaincowbasher said:

I have been giving solutions for years, and every time I get a person like you who post skewed stats like the ones you posted to rationalize your opinion. The Sedins points are higher then everyone because 1. they play more than everyone- even strength, and 2. they play the majority of the PP. they also get scored on most then any other line and it's not because they play the most, it's because 1. they are slow, 2. they don't back check or pick up their man, it's truly pathetic to watch.

So, the only score more because they play more, but they don't get scored on more because they play more? Sounds like it makes total sense to use one point for one argument but completely discount it for another that's intrinsically linked to the first.

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1 hour ago, SaintPatrick33 said:

 

Now it seems like you really NAILED IT. To my knowledge, Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, Toews, Kane, heck the Sedins and Kesler all experienced losing and the weight of expectations. You do not know what you have until you play these players. Just letting them sit there while coddling works for some, but not the truly elite players. Who knows what we have unless you test them?

Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, Toews, and Kane all came into the league elite players. The Sedins and Kesler on the other hand were sheltered and had to develop into elite players. We currently don't have any prospects on our roster that doesn't need time to be developed. The deep end tends to be for the generational guys. Guys that show they can handle it and produce get larger roles, those that can't are given time to develop in lesser roles to start.

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58 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, Toews, and Kane all came into the league elite players. The Sedins and Kesler on the other hand were sheltered and had to develop into elite players. We currently don't have any prospects on our roster that doesn't need time to be developed. The deep end tends to be for the generational guys. Guys that show they can handle it and produce get larger roles, those that can't are given time to develop in lesser roles to start.

 

Baggins, I agree with you in that those players I mentioned at first were generational talents. However, the Sedins and Kesler were given playing time in the NHL for about 3 to 4 years before they finally became elite. As I said, playing stopgaps like Sbisa, Larson, Weber, Bart, Higgins, Burr, Vey makes no sense. We need to see which one of our prospects can hack the NHL grind and make it. So far, only Bo has proven he can handle the grind. The rest, especially Virtanen, have proven to be nothing but babies needing to be coddled (as that horrid WJC he played attests to). 

 

I hope to god these players Benning drafted turn out to be something, otherwise I am just waiting for Boeser, he is the only prospect we have who is capable of handling the NHL in his first year. 

 

Remember Keenan gave Kovalev a 5 minute shift just to prove a point? Well Kovy during that shift created about 3 scoring chances, and after he was asked about it and he thought Keenan was complimenting him. I do not see this type of prove it or lose it mentality in Willie D right now, he should play Jake and Trymak until they suffer, only then will they learn. If they mess up then punish them, but why punish them when they haven't even gotten a chance to mess up? 

 

I will not pay to watch Sbisa, Larsen or Burr mess up, but I sure will to watch our young guys learn the game. Maybe our gracious owner would understand, but I do not think he does. As other posters have mentioned, I wouldn't take free tickets right now because I do not see any potential being played, only plugs who are nothing but stopgaps. 

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6 hours ago, Alflives said:

I agree with you.  The owner and JB don't really have a true understanding of what we want as fans.  We want hope for an exciting future.  We want more Bo Horvats - young exciting players to cheer for.  WE KNOW THE TEINS TIME IS OVER. 

 

Alf I hate to break it to you but you don't have the patience or tolerance for more Bo Horvats.

We would be through 3 more coaches (and 2 GMs probably) after Willie if this team went into a tear down rebuild. 

You apparently don't even have the stomach for the present rebuild.

 

We drafted Boeser didn't we (you are always banging on about him) well maybe we will get 2 or 3 more in the next couple of years. You keep harping on about the owner, what you are saying is he should just sit there and take the million dollar hit as if it was nothing while at the same time it's ok for fans to say they will not buy tickets - I think that's called hypocrisy.

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5 minutes ago, SaintPatrick33 said:

 

Baggins, I agree with you in that those players I mentioned at first were generational talents. However, the Sedins and Kesler were given playing time in the NHL for about 3 to 4 years before they finally became elite. As I said, playing stopgaps like Sbisa, Larson, Weber, Bart, Higgins, Burr, Vey makes no sense. We need to see which one of our prospects can hack the NHL grind and make it. So far, only Bo has proven he can handle the grind. The rest, especially Virtanen, have proven to be nothing but babies needing to be coddled (as that horrid WJC he played attests to). 

 

I hope to god these players Benning drafted turn out to be something, otherwise I am just waiting for Boeser, he is the only prospect we have who is capable of handling the NHL in his first year. 

 

Remember Keenan gave Kovalev a 5 minute shift just to prove a point? Well Kovy during that shift created about 3 scoring chances, and after he was asked about it and he thought Keenan was complimenting him. I do not see this type of prove it or lose it mentality in Willie D right now, he should play Jake and Trymak until they suffer, only then will they learn. If they mess up then punish them, but why punish them when they haven't even gotten a chance to mess up? 

 

I will not pay to watch Sbisa, Larsen or Burr mess up, but I sure will to watch our young guys learn the game. Maybe our gracious owner would understand, but I do not think he does. As other posters have mentioned, I wouldn't take free tickets right now because I do not see any potential being played, only plugs who are nothing but stopgaps. 

 

I'm on the opposite side of the fence. The Sedins only played around 13 minutes a game, including PP time, for their first three or four seasons. kesler, Burrows, and Hansen all started on the fourth line and worked their way up. You assess where a player is at and slot them in accordingly. If you just keep tossing guys in the deep end you will likely ruin more than a few.

 

I honestly don't see Jake or Tryamkin as being punished. Jake hasn't played well enough to get more than he has. Although I thought he had a decent game against Washington. Tryamkin showed up in poor shape, likely because he felt he'd be handed a spot due to his contract. Not a good attitude and he should be rewarded? So he gets to work his bag off just to get in. That's what he's earned. You start gifting young players undeserved time and what incentive is there to get better? It's really about trying to get prospects to their full potential as opposed to giving a few fans their kiddy fix.

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6 minutes ago, SaintPatrick33 said:

 

Baggins, I agree with you in that those players I mentioned at first were generational talents. However, the Sedins and Kesler were given playing time in the NHL for about 3 to 4 years before they finally became elite. As I said, playing stopgaps like Sbisa, Larson, Weber, Bart, Higgins, Burr, Vey makes no sense. We need to see which one of our prospects can hack the NHL grind and make it. So far, only Bo has proven he can handle the grind. The rest, especially Virtanen, have proven to be nothing but babies needing to be coddled (as that horrid WJC he played attests to). 

 

I hope to god these players Benning drafted turn out to be something, otherwise I am just waiting for Boeser, he is the only prospect we have who is capable of handling the NHL in his first year. 

 

Remember Keenan gave Kovalev a 5 minute shift just to prove a point? Well Kovy during that shift created about 3 scoring chances, and after he was asked about it and he thought Keenan was complimenting him. I do not see this type of prove it or lose it mentality in Willie D right now, he should play Jake and Trymak until they suffer, only then will they learn. If they mess up then punish them, but why punish them when they haven't even gotten a chance to mess up? 

 

I will not pay to watch Sbisa, Larsen or Burr mess up, but I sure will to watch our young guys learn the game. Maybe our gracious owner would understand, but I do not think he does. As other posters have mentioned, I wouldn't take free tickets right now because I do not see any potential being played, only plugs who are nothing but stopgaps. 

 

Bo didn't learn the game in the deep end. That refutes your argument.

You don't "prove" players by trying to destroy them. Keenan was so good for this club he only lasted a season, yet you put him forward as an example of what this club needs.

 

Well it wouldn't take long for others to see what we were doing and Vancouver wouldn't get any prospect to sign for them.

 

Just because you have been spoilt by relative success and now don't have the attention span to weather a rebuild does not mean the Canucks are doing it wrong. If we had gone through what the Oilers have gone through you would have abandoned this team long ago I suspect.

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6 hours ago, Alflives said:

I agree with you.  The owner and JB don't really have a true understanding of what we want as fans.  We want hope for an exciting future.  We want more Bo Horvats - young exciting players to cheer for.  WE KNOW THE TEINS TIME IS OVER. 

 

Well Christmas is coming, maybe Santa will bring a bag full of top prospects. If not maybe Benning can stop by the NHL store in January for the after Christmas elite prospects sale.

 

Benning has had 3 drafts here so far. Less than two and a half years. Just how many "exciting" NHL ready players did you expect to see in that time?

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6 hours ago, kingofsurrey said:

 

Too many veteran  players are mostly concerned with their own ice time  / zone starts and production.  Everyone has a short time in the league and an even shorter time as a high wage earning vet.  Every few extra points will factor into the next contract.   Would you be excited about a younger guy at  your job taking over from you and your salary getting reduced....  your boss no longer asks for  / values your opinion......

Hockey teams are a workplace for players.....   Players are trying to maximize salary to take care of their families....

 

If the vets are sat or given less icetime - it will cost them financially. 

 

Thats what i do love about guys like Higgins and Burrows. They just wanna win and don't care about their production. They will play any role the coach asks to the best of their ability.  That is character.  

 

I'm afraid you haven't a clue bud.

 

Vets don't mind rookies on their line if they are firstly, equipped to play on it and secondly graft hard enough to allow these vets to play "their" game. 

It is when rookies are "over promoted" that the problem comes. If they are constantly requiring the vets to baby sit them and cover for their mistakes or lack of stamina, it is not long before the vets themselves are sliding off their game. Now I'll give you one guess who the fans pick on to vent their ignorant hate.

 

The only way that has to do with ice time or contracts/money is the fact the vets own game might suffer. The twins DON'T WANT Jake on their line because he is not ready, in either stamina (to play with the twins) or understanding of the game.

 

So lowering a vet's performance is not the purpose of playing rookies as I'm sure you will understand.

 

Bo (and now Gaunce) were handled the right way. They were played on the 4th to build up their confidence, stamina and acclimatise them to what the NHL is all about while playing against opponents who were 4th liners. In Bo's case he was lucky, he played with Dorsett who has the ability to raise his game with talented youngsters.

 

Your comment about Higgins and Burr is perplexing. I seriously doubt either at this stage of their careers had a firm enough grip on their own game let alone be able to nurture rookies on the ice.

I don't dispute Burr is a great influence off the ice but I seriously doubt he has it in him now to show rookies "how it's done"

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28 minutes ago, alfstonker said:

 

Bo didn't learn the game in the deep end. That refutes your argument.

You don't "prove" players by trying to destroy them. Keenan was so good for this club he only lasted a season, yet you put him forward as an example of what this club needs.

 

Well it wouldn't take long for others to see what we were doing and Vancouver wouldn't get any prospect to sign for them.

 

Just because you have been spoilt by relative success and now don't have the attention span to weather a rebuild does not mean the Canucks are doing it wrong. If we had gone through what the Oilers have gone through you would have abandoned this team long ago I suspect.

 

Not sure what you mean by "Bo didn't learn his game in the deep end"? He was given limited minutes his rookie year, limited minutes last year and yet the last third of the season when he was given some QUALITY minutes he was our leading scorer? Sure, even in a defensive role he is our leading goal scorer right now. Are you asking that our leading goal scorer be kept in his sheltered defensive role? That makes no sense, since he has proven he can be a difference maker unlike anyone else in our lineup right now. Instead of letting him loose, this management keeps him in a limited role.

 

Defense is much easier to learn than scoring goals, this is what we need right now as evidenced by our low goal scoring total. 

 

Look at the Jets with Laine. They told him to focus on his offence (because scoring in the NHL is much harder to teach than being a defensive plug) and he is all of a sudden the early leader for the Richard trophy. This organization does not know how to develop young players, instead they ruin their offensive potential or trade them (Bure, Neely, Linden) during their prime years. 

 

Enough is enough, and honestly, if you want to pay to watch Sbisa, Larsen etc etc play then be my guest but I bet you haven't even gone to a game. A few posters have already said they wouldn't even take free tix, and look at the empty seats. Heck when the Oilers were here I heard more "lets go oilers" chants than anything. How embarrassing. 

 

@Baggins and yourself, I think Trymak 20 pounds out of shape is better than watching Sbisa or Larsen turn the puck over constantly. The potential for talent trumps anything limited players like Sbisa, Larsen, Weber, Bart, Higgins, Vey etc can do. This is my point,and I am sure numerous others share my opinion. 

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44 minutes ago, Baggins said:

 

I'm on the opposite side of the fence. The Sedins only played around 13 minutes a game, including PP time, for their first three or four seasons. kesler, Burrows, and Hansen all started on the fourth line and worked their way up. You assess where a player is at and slot them in accordingly. If you just keep tossing guys in the deep end you will likely ruin more than a few.

 

I honestly don't see Jake or Tryamkin as being punished. Jake hasn't played well enough to get more than he has. Although I thought he had a decent game against Washington. Tryamkin showed up in poor shape, likely because he felt he'd be handed a spot due to his contract. Not a good attitude and he should be rewarded? So he gets to work his bag off just to get in. That's what he's earned. You start gifting young players undeserved time and what incentive is there to get better? It's really about trying to get prospects to their full potential as opposed to giving a few fans their kiddy fix.

 

You are correct in that Kesler and the Sedins earned their ice time. They were given what amounts to third line minutes to develop. However, Trymak is not even being played right now, and Jake is given scrap minutes while plugs like Skille (a joke we even signed this guy) are given more time? That makes no sense at all. 

 

Versus Washington, Jake created a goal while on a line with some offensive talent, imagine that? I admit he has not looked in shape yet, but he still got a great shot on net which was eventually put in the net by Bo. This kid needs confidence, last year he was roofing shots top shelf and this year he is missing shots 10 feet wide, that is a confidence issue, which is the whole point of why we have coaches. 

 

Enough with plugs like Skille, Vey etc, let these kids play and if the coaches are worth their salary they will allow them to learn from their mistakes. We sure as hell aint winning the cup this year, so let the kids learn on the job. 

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