Baggins Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 17 minutes ago, alfstonker said: I don't dispute Burr is a great influence off the ice but I seriously doubt he has it in him now to show rookies "how it's done" I have to disagree with that. Burr still has that give 100% work ethic, is strong on the forecheck, and solid defensively. If you want young guys to learn the two way game Burr is not a bad mentor at all. Both McCann and Virtanen said last year Burr was very vocal on the bench and giving them advice and tips when he was on a line with them. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 8 minutes ago, SaintPatrick33 said: You are correct in that Kesler and the Sedins earned their ice time. They were given what amounts to third line minutes to develop. However, Trymak is not even being played right now, and Jake is given scrap minutes while plugs like Skille (a joke we even signed this guy) are given more time? That makes no sense at all. Versus Washington, Jake created a goal while on a line with some offensive talent, imagine that? I admit he has not looked in shape yet, but he still got a great shot on net which was eventually put in the net by Bo. This kid needs confidence, last year he was roofing shots top shelf and this year he is missing shots 10 feet wide, that is a confidence issue, which is the whole point of why we have coaches. Enough with plugs like Skille, Vey etc, let these kids play and if the coaches are worth their salary they will allow them to learn from their mistakes. We sure as hell aint winning the cup this year, so let the kids learn on the job. Jake has one good play in 9 games and he's the next coming. Last year Vey had a higher shooting percentage than Jake. I honestly thought Jake should have been sent back to junior last season. Neither he or McCann really impressed me. We weren't winning the cup when the Sedins came into the league and they had to earn their ice time. The same goes for Kesler. I have no problem with players working for what they get rather than having it handed to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintPatrick33 Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 17 minutes ago, Baggins said: Jake has one good play in 9 games and he's the next coming. Last year Vey had a higher shooting percentage than Jake. I honestly thought Jake should have been sent back to junior last season. Neither he or McCann really impressed me. We weren't winning the cup when the Sedins came into the league and they had to earn their ice time. The same goes for Kesler. I have no problem with players working for what they get rather than having it handed to them. I suppose my question boils down to the fact that Skille is getting more mins than Jake. Do you think our organization benefits from a plug like Skille getting more minutes than our 1st round pick Jake? What has Skille done to earn his contract and role on this team? He is a horrid player, yet we are rebuilding and give a PTO player more ice than our 1st rounder? Way to hurt his confidence. No wonder Jake is shooting wide on his scoring chances. Jake has matched Skille's NHL career high in his rookie season. If you think that is whats best after watching this organization squander numerous talents, then I do not have a rebuttal my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 38 minutes ago, SaintPatrick33 said: @Baggins and yourself, I think Trymak 20 pounds out of shape is better than watching Sbisa or Larsen turn the puck over constantly. The potential for talent trumps anything limited players like Sbisa, Larsen, Weber, Bart, Higgins, Vey etc can do. This is my point,and I am sure numerous others share my opinion. Aaaaah! Tryamkin had to wait 10 games to get his lazy arse in shape.....but I want him nowwww!!!! And some wonder why so many of us say this fanbase doesn't have the patience for a full tank rebuild. Can't even wait 10 games for a mid level prospect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfstonker Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 44 minutes ago, SaintPatrick33 said: Not sure what you mean by "Bo didn't learn his game in the deep end"? He was given limited minutes his rookie year, limited minutes last year and yet the last third of the season when he was given some QUALITY minutes he was our leading scorer? Sure, even in a defensive role he is our leading goal scorer right now. Are you asking that our leading goal scorer be kept in his sheltered defensive role? That makes no sense, since he has proven he can be a difference maker unlike anyone else in our lineup right now. Instead of letting him loose, this management keeps him in a limited role. Defense is much easier to learn than scoring goals, this is what we need right now as evidenced by our low goal scoring total. Look at the Jets with Laine. They told him to focus on his offence (because scoring in the NHL is much harder to teach than being a defensive plug) and he is all of a sudden the early leader for the Richard trophy. This organization does not know how to develop young players, instead they ruin their offensive potential or trade them (Bure, Neely, Linden) during their prime years. Enough is enough, and honestly, if you want to pay to watch Sbisa, Larsen etc etc play then be my guest but I bet you haven't even gone to a game. A few posters have already said they wouldn't even take free tix, and look at the empty seats. Heck when the Oilers were here I heard more "lets go oilers" chants than anything. How embarrassing. @Baggins and yourself, I think Trymak 20 pounds out of shape is better than watching Sbisa or Larsen turn the puck over constantly. The potential for talent trumps anything limited players like Sbisa, Larsen, Weber, Bart, Higgins, Vey etc can do. This is my point,and I am sure numerous others share my opinion. With respect Bo is not Laine. I meant he was sheltered on the 4th and latterly the 3rd in his first season as opposed to how elite, top 3 players are often expected to play on the 1st or 2nd lines from the off. Sbisa has been decent so far this season. He is being played with Larsen who, let's face it is a bit of a defensive liability. Do you think that helps Sbisa's game? Sadly if every team had your philosophy there would only be rookies in the league and every year would be a race to the bottom in order to replace the young guys who couldn't cut it in their first season. Do you even care about the game, or is it all about winning with you? Every team can't win all the time and it is farcical we are even having this conversation after 9 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintPatrick33 Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 Just now, Baggins said: Aaaaah! Tryamkin had to wait 10 games to get his lazy arse in shape.....but I want him nowwww!!!! And some wonder why so many of us say this fanbase doesn't have the patience for a full tank rebuild. Can't even wait 10 games for a mid level prospect. Well my friend, there have not been too many physical specimen like Trymak in the NHL. Chara was the last example, and if you watch Chara with the Sens at the same age, he was a clunky mess. Maybe Willie D has a plan in place for Trymak, but I bet he doesn't given his track record of developing players not related to Medicine Hat. Much praise? Yes indeed, because I want to see if Trymak can continue his progression. Even Bob Cole noticed how smooth and shifty Trymak was during our game vs the Oilers last year. All long suffering fans want to see is potential being allowed to succeed, instead I have to watch Sbisa and Larson turn the puck over while providing no intimidation for the rest of our players. I admit Sbisa tried to get at Lucic, but did not drop the gloves after his big hit. Do not think Trymak would have been in that situation given what he did vs the Ducks. I ask what is your alternative? Do you wish to see Sbisa continue on his trajectory of turning the puck over? He is a horrible player, so is Larson in his own end, although I love Larson walking the line on the PP. What do you suggest we do, and how would Trymak "earn" his ice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintPatrick33 Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 2 minutes ago, alfstonker said: With respect Bo is not Laine. I meant he was sheltered on the 4th and latterly the 3rd in his first season as opposed to how elite, top 3 players are often expected to play on the 1st or 2nd lines from the off. Sbisa has been decent so far this season. He is being played with Larsen who, let's face it is a bit of a defensive liability. Do you think that helps Sbisa's game? Sadly if every team had your philosophy there would only be rookies in the league and every year would be a race to the bottom in order to replace the young guys who couldn't cut it in their first season. Do you even care about the game, or is it all about winning with you? Every team can't win all the time and it is farcical we are even having this conversation after 9 games. I am not even sure what you are trying to say, you jump from answer to answer based on the best comeback. Bo has improved his offence greatly since his rookie year, do you not see the toe drags and improved speed he has added since he broke in? Maybe watch that Sens game again and ask who was that one player who split the D on a toe drag and almost roofed it. BTW he is our leading scorer right now who is in defensive purgatory under our managements guidance. Maybe look at how Drouin, once he was given the keys to offence scored in the playoffs to see proper development. If Laine was on this team, he would be put into a 4th line role and asked to defend rather than score. This is what Willie will do with any prospect because he does not have the chops to develop scoring, its not like this team is devoid of talent, we have the Twins, Bear, Ericksonn, Bo, Hansen, Sutter, all guys who have scored 20 plus in the NHL doing nothing right now. My only point is that why play plugs like Skille, Vey, higgins, Sbisa, larson, Weber, Bart? Play the players who have potential, not these scraps who are worthless even on waivers. I appreciate the reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfstonker Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 1 minute ago, SaintPatrick33 said: I am not even sure what you are trying to say, you jump from answer to answer based on the best comeback. Bo has improved his offence greatly since his rookie year, do you not see the toe drags and improved speed he has added since he broke in? Maybe watch that Sens game again and ask who was that one player who split the D on a toe drag and almost roofed it. BTW he is our leading scorer right now who is in defensive purgatory under our managements guidance. Maybe look at how Drouin, once he was given the keys to offence scored in the playoffs to see proper development. If Laine was on this team, he would be put into a 4th line role and asked to defend rather than score. This is what Willie will do with any prospect because he does not have the chops to develop scoring, its not like this team is devoid of talent, we have the Twins, Bear, Ericksonn, Bo, Hansen, Sutter, all guys who have scored 20 plus in the NHL doing nothing right now. My only point is that why play plugs like Skille, Vey, higgins, Sbisa, larson, Weber, Bart? Play the players who have potential, not these scraps who are worthless even on waivers. I appreciate the reply. My point is Bo is where he is BECAUSE of how he was handled. When Willie was forced to put him on the 2nd line due to injury he struggled badly. So just flinging a rookie into the top 2 lines and playing him for 15mins is not always the best way to build confidence. Drouin improved because he was brought into line, it had nothing to do with where he was played. Your point about Laine going on the 4th is moot. He is was drafted 2nd and I doubt if he showed well in the pre season he would have started on the 4th. Stecher was played for 22mins because he had already proved himself in the pre season. We ARE playing the players who have potential. Just because you don't think Skille Vey, Sbisa, Larsen are worth playing doesn't make you right (I think you will find these players in most teams in the league) Where is all this TALENT coming from to replace these guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 7 hours ago, WhoseTruckWasIt said: So by not worrying about succeeding, we will put the young guys in a position to succeed. NAILED IT. Why protect them from failure? Failure is where greatness is born right? McDavid is succeeding, so does Eichel. Oh there is that Matthews kid too. These are very young players, given opportunities to succeed, by playing big minutes in offensive roles. Where were they picked in their draft years? Where were our best prospects picked? Odds are these young players, who are able to succeed, when given opportunity come at the top of their drafts. We DO NOT have those guys. (Well, we do have the Twins - picked 2/3 - but they are old now) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoseTruckWasIt Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 5 hours ago, SaintPatrick33 said: Now it seems like you really NAILED IT. To my knowledge, Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, Toews, Kane, heck the Sedins and Kesler all experienced losing and the weight of expectations. You do not know what you have until you play these players. Just letting them sit there while coddling works for some, but not the truly elite players. Who knows what we have unless you test them? Playing guys like Prust, Burrows, Sbisa, Larsen, Weber, Bartkowski, Vey, higgins does not really make a lot of sense since you kind of get the drift that these guys are what they are, marginal NHL players at this point. Play the youngsters that you have, and work with them rather than trying to shelter them, these are competitive professional athletes, if they are worth their salt they will step up to the challenge and learn like the greats did. This is why they brought Willie "I won a calder cup with youngsters" D was brought in to do, so far who has he developed? Horvat? He would have been developed no matter who was coach because he has that inner will to succeed. The rest need guidance and good coaching to reach their potential. Once again, you are the purveyor of all hockey knowledge and correct yet again. I remember when Kesler came in. I'm pretty sure we traded our top players for picks and asked him to play 25 minutes a night against the other teams best players while producing offense. After 4 years of that he was suddenly good. GREAT EFFING EXAMPLE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoseTruckWasIt Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 1 hour ago, SaintPatrick33 said: Well my friend, there have not been too many physical specimen like Trymak in the NHL. Chara was the last example, and if you watch Chara with the Sens at the same age, he was a clunky mess. Maybe Willie D has a plan in place for Trymak, but I bet he doesn't given his track record of developing players not related to Medicine Hat. Much praise? Yes indeed, because I want to see if Trymak can continue his progression. Even Bob Cole noticed how smooth and shifty Trymak was during our game vs the Oilers last year. All long suffering fans want to see is potential being allowed to succeed, instead I have to watch Sbisa and Larson turn the puck over while providing no intimidation for the rest of our players. I admit Sbisa tried to get at Lucic, but did not drop the gloves after his big hit. Do not think Trymak would have been in that situation given what he did vs the Ducks. I ask what is your alternative? Do you wish to see Sbisa continue on his trajectory of turning the puck over? He is a horrible player, so is Larson in his own end, although I love Larson walking the line on the PP. What do you suggest we do, and how would Trymak "earn" his ice? Jeez, obviously we should just throw him in the deep end because there is just no way it could go badly. And think of how soothing it would be for "long-suffering" fans. Seriously, at least you're emotional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oregon.Duck Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 10 hours ago, JamesB said: Yes, but to succeed, Benning needs to be a better GM than other GMs, not just be more knowledgeable that us. And we can assess how he is done relative to other GMs. To put the point differently, I freely admit that guys like Bartkowski or Prust are vastly better hockey players than I am or ever was. But I can still see that they not good enough to contribute much at the NHL level and it does not surprise me that neither one has an NHL contract this year. I can also see that Virtanen is performing like an NHL 4th liner while Nylander is a solid top 6 forward on a trajectory to be a star. Benning signed Bart, traded for Prust (and overpaid both guys) and picked Virtanen over Nylander (and Ehlers), not to mention paying big money for Eriksson for a 6-year deal despite his age. I am not saying I knew any better but I am saying that those moves and many others are not looking good relative to what other GMs have done. All valid points, but we have the opportunity to use hindsight (which is always 20/20). When you're in the decision room trying to build a team that's competitive yet still dealing with all the political pressures that come with dealing with ownership and management. - Prust met the "meat and potatoes" mindset and build, but didn't pan out. - JB had previous rapport built with Bartkowski and may have thought he'd flourish here, didn't pan out. - Eriksson is worth it based on historical performance (really the only indicator to success). It's still early in the season and too early to write him off. - Virtanen, again, meets a need where we have a void in our prospect pool, a big scoring winger. Will he pan out? Not sure, but at that point was certainly at the top of many peoples lists to take at 6. I'm not defending JB, but I am saying that people are unwarranted many times in attacking professionals without truly trying to be in their shoes. There are always 2 sides to a coin and it's easy to focus on the side that doesn't go in one's favor. Just think of a time at work when a decision has to be made. Is it always right? Nope. And in hindsight it's easy to say what could've been done better. If JB continues to make the same mistake consistently, then it's an issue, but I have yet to see that trend occur. These are separate decisions made in silo's that people lump together. The job is hard and again, it's easy not to sympathize or empathize with the individual, especially when they're in a position of power and seemingly in charge of making decisions, but one's gotta try. My $0.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goblix Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 22 hours ago, Baggins said: You can call the Sedins the 4th line if you want but the opposition is still going to play their top defenders against them not Bo. That Daniel Sedin guy is a goon anyways so that's where he belongs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 13 hours ago, JamesB said: [...] Good call. I like Baer with Granlund, Virtanen with Horvat, and the Sedins with Hansen instead of Eriksson. That leaves Eriksson with Sutter. Burrows, Dorsett and Gaunce or Skille can slot into wing positions, and that would give the Canucks 4 decent lines. I still don't think they have enough talent to contend, but I like those line combinations best. Yes, for a while yet the Sedins will attract the other teams' top D pairing and a lot of attention from good shutdown forwards. But sooner or later other team will change match-ups if the Sedins don't pick up the pace. If the Sedins are still playing like borderline second liners in January (as they are now -- and that is pretty good for 36-year-olds) look for other teams to start making the switch. And, frankly, if no one can overtake the Sedins as the Canucks top forwards, we are in for a very low-scoring season. Burrows, Dorsett, Skille are not suited for the top-9. I would keep them on the 4th with Gaunce. Eriksson is not really an off the rush player unlike Sutter. Henrik speaks of how Eriksson likes to make quick and small passes with his linemates - that's not Sutter. Baer plays that style and he can thread pass - he's got numerous assists in the past incl in Calgary where he hits the guy just at the front of the net which is where Eriksson likes to be. Baer-Granlund-Eriksson would be a more natural fit. Horvat-Virtanen with Sutter or Hansen should work save for handedness as they are all more north-south players. It feels like right now there's a mismatch in playing styles on the different lines. Is that really more efficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 6 hours ago, SaintPatrick33 said: Well my friend, there have not been too many physical specimen like Trymak in the NHL. Chara was the last example, and if you watch Chara with the Sens at the same age, he was a clunky mess. Maybe Willie D has a plan in place for Trymak, but I bet he doesn't given his track record of developing players not related to Medicine Hat. Much praise? Yes indeed, because I want to see if Trymak can continue his progression. Even Bob Cole noticed how smooth and shifty Trymak was during our game vs the Oilers last year. All long suffering fans want to see is potential being allowed to succeed, instead I have to watch Sbisa and Larson turn the puck over while providing no intimidation for the rest of our players. I admit Sbisa tried to get at Lucic, but did not drop the gloves after his big hit. Do not think Trymak would have been in that situation given what he did vs the Ducks. I ask what is your alternative? Do you wish to see Sbisa continue on his trajectory of turning the puck over? He is a horrible player, so is Larson in his own end, although I love Larson walking the line on the PP. What do you suggest we do, and how would Trymak "earn" his ice? What progression? He's played 13 NHL games. Well Trymak could have started by putting in something of an effort in the offseason. Not doing that and refusing Utica, I have no sympathy for him at all. He can wait for a spot now and go from there to prove he's the better choice. Then maybe next year he'll actually show up ready. Btw, way I didn't see Try drop the gloves against the Ducks. All he did was try to evade. Sbisa has 16 NHL fights and 10 WHL fights. Compare that to Tryamkins one fight in which he got his face bloodied. I don't think he goes looking for fights. You're confusing him with Pedan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 4 hours ago, Oregon.Duck said: All valid points, but we have the opportunity to use hindsight (which is always 20/20). When you're in the decision room trying to build a team that's competitive yet still dealing with all the political pressures that come with dealing with ownership and management. - Prust met the "meat and potatoes" mindset and build, but didn't pan out. - JB had previous rapport built with Bartkowski and may have thought he'd flourish here, didn't pan out. - Eriksson is worth it based on historical performance (really the only indicator to success). It's still early in the season and too early to write him off. - Virtanen, again, meets a need where we have a void in our prospect pool, a big scoring winger. Will he pan out? Not sure, but at that point was certainly at the top of many peoples lists to take at 6. I'm not defending JB, but I am saying that people are unwarranted many times in attacking professionals without truly trying to be in their shoes. There are always 2 sides to a coin and it's easy to focus on the side that doesn't go in one's favor. Just think of a time at work when a decision has to be made. Is it always right? Nope. And in hindsight it's easy to say what could've been done better. If JB continues to make the same mistake consistently, then it's an issue, but I have yet to see that trend occur. These are separate decisions made in silo's that people lump together. The job is hard and again, it's easy not to sympathize or empathize with the individual, especially when they're in a position of power and seemingly in charge of making decisions, but one's gotta try. My $0.02 Eriksson had 2 goals in the first 10 games last year and had a 9 game goal drought. Still scored 30 goals. The year before he had 2 goals in his first 14 games and had 12 game goal drought. Still scored 22 goals. That's on a team he was both familiar and comfortable with. There's really no reason to worry this early in the season. It's just the typical Vancouver panic button syndrome going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino#29 Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 15 minutes ago, Baggins said: What progression? He's played 13 NHL games. Well Trymak could have started by putting in something of an effort in the offseason. Not doing that and refusing Utica, I have no sympathy for him at all. He can wait for a spot now and go from there to prove he's the better choice. Then maybe next year he'll actually show up ready. Btw, way I didn't see Try drop the gloves against the Ducks. All he did was try to evade. Sbisa has 16 NHL fights and 10 WHL fights. Compare that to Tryamkins one fight in which he got his face bloodied. I don't think he goes looking for fights. You're confusing him with Pedan. the only person saying he's out of shape is WD.i'm not taking a complete idiots word.the guys 6;7 260,who gives a hit if he can't out time stecher on grouse grind.i'd rather put my money on the fighter thats 0-1 rather than the one who's 0-16.sbisa is a complete embarrassment when he drops the gloves.every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 another poster who is a great argument for #postcountminimunrequirementbeforethreadstartprivileges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 1 minute ago, gino#29 said: the only person saying he's out of shape is WD.i'm not taking a complete idiots word.the guys 6;7 260,who gives a hit if he can't out time stecher on grouse grind.i'd rather put my money on the fighter thats 0-1 rather than the one who's 0-16.sbisa is a complete embarrassment when he drops the gloves.every time. Why would Benning ask him to take a conditioning stint in Utica then? You think Benning based that on just Willie's word? Do you realize how many coaches and trainers are wiith the team? Do you think Benning may have taken a glance at the fitness testing results? You don't think he paid any attention to training camp or preseason? I don't think Willies is the complete idiot in these parts. I'd say some others have a firm hold on that title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakrami Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 1. WD doesnt think anyone plays better than the Sedins 2. The only coach, coaching a Canucks team, who has the guts to demote the Sedins to the 3rd line is named Tortorella and we already shipped him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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