Our Plan Has Failed

[asian player]

     When Jim Benning took over in 2014, we had finally wrapped up the most painful season in recent memory. He was left with a decent core group of players, around $20 million in cap-space (iirc), and a very bare looking cupboard of prospects. Understandably, Benning decided to try his best to ice a competitive team while finding younger players through draft and trade. Whether you disagree with this philosophy or not, it was a legitimate plan and many teams have been successful with this recipe. 

 

     In his first season, he signed Ryan Miller and Radim Vrbata to help the group we already had. Kesler was also traded for a package and this was the start of the transformation. We had 2 first round picks, our 2014 draft was a huge success. The team was definitely strong enough to compete for a playoff spot and so they decided to keep Horvat up. The Canucks made the playoffs that year and lost out to the Flames in the first round. While the playoffs was disappointing, almost everything went according to plan. Playoff experience was valuable for Bo and the loss helped us identify the weaknesses in the team. 

 

     The next season, we brought up 3 rookies and acquired Sven Baertschi. It was not difficult to tell Bonino was a little slow and bit small to play that 2C position. Benning traded Bonino for Sutter to solidify the position and recognized him as a "foundational player". Everything at this point looked like it was going according to plan. We were icing a competitive team while slowly inserting our youth into the lineup. However as the season went on, our players were dropping like flies. We were forced to rush Bo into a position we did not expect we had to. With all the injuries, we finished the season close to last and we ended up drafting a very solid defenseman. 

 

    In the summer of 2016, Jim took a look at where we were as a team. He thought last year was simply unlucky as we had many of our core guys injured. He decided to trade McCann for Gudbranson to bolster our back end. Again, we slowly worked our rookies into the lineup with Gaunce, Tryamkin and a bit of Stecher. After our quick 3-0 start, we have lost every game after that and it seems like we can't seem to buy a goal. 

 

Now, looking at where we are as a team right now, are we still going according to plan? Obviously, things could quickly turn around and we could even make the playoffs. However, it just seems unlikely. It's clear we have a very weak forward group. If by trade deadline we are still struggling, shouldn't we adjust to what is happening? If we are no longer winning, we are no longer developing our youth in a winning environment. At this point, it does not seem like there are many options for us in terms of bringing in help. Our youth are suffering in a losing culture right now. Right now, we have several players that will be young enough to compete for the next cup push. Horvat, Baertschi, Virtanen, Stecher, Hutton, Gaunce, Tryamkin, Gudbranson are all young. Additionally, we have 3 top tier prospects as well as several very promising kids in the minors. Should we flip some of our guys for draft picks or young players like Vrana? 

 

TL;DR: If we are no longer bringing up our young players in a winning culture, things are not going according to plan. If we are losing regardless, should we move some of our guys for picks or younger players? 

[Kevin Biestra]

I think that if this continues, moving older players for picks and young players at the deadline is a no-brainer.  Nobody would advocate against it.

 

I would say that if we are actually still this bad at the 50 game mark, it might even be worth it to have guys like Virtanen go down to the A and take a shot at the Calder Cup or something.

 

And give the team credit where credit is due...we won 4 games (not three) before embarking on our plummet to the center of the earth.

[wai_lai416]

who are the very promising kids in the minor you speak of? other than Boeser who's doing well in NCAA.. the entire utica team is so bad right now it's not even funny.. other than Grenier who's not really a prospect.. and subban realistically will never make the team whom are producing right now.. the entire team have 0 offense just like their parent club.. and both goalies are getting lit up like xmas trees..

[Junkyard Dog]

Gradually start a rebuild. Trade veterans as the youth prove capable of handling responsibility. Keep enough veterans to help transition these young men into the new core. During the off-season only sign UFA's to add grit and physicality to protect our youth, if we are going to lose games then our opponents will be black and blue by the end of it.

 

We have a lot of young depth at defense. That's where we can start. We can afford to move one of Tanev or Edler this season and then the other eventually later.

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

So you are putting a lot of the onus on Jim Benning.  If there was one thing I really don't like about him, it is his arrogance or pride.  I sometimes feel as though he is too proud to admit his mistakes, and puts pressure on the coach and team to make sure his vision becomes reality.  I think he pressured WD to continue playing Vey and Virtanen.  He decided to not pull any trades last deadline because he did not feel like he was getting a fair deal.  He did not re-claim Emerson Etem even though he had every right and cause to do so.  

 

There's always other sides to this argument but he is definitely stubborn and probably very arrogant.  Now the team is paying the price.

[N4ZZY]

1 minute ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

So you are putting a lot of the onus on Jim Benning.  If there was one thing I really don't like about him, it is his arrogance or pride.  I sometimes feel as though he is too proud to admit his mistakes, and puts pressure on the coach and team to make sure his vision becomes reality.  I think he pressured WD to continue playing Vey and Virtanen.  He decided to not pull any trades last deadline because he did not feel like he was getting a fair deal.  He did not re-claim Emerson Etem even though he had every right and cause to do so.  

 

There's always other sides to this argument but he is definitely stubborn and probably very arrogant.  Now the team is paying the price.

Benning's pride and arrogance might eventually be his downfall. 

 

He may eventually lose his job as GM over this club, because of his pride. Admit your mistakes, and people have a tendency to be more forgiving. This is the beginning of a painful rebuild. I think Benning may have to eventually accept that, whether he wants to or not. The team just does not have enough assets to make meaningful trades that benefit the club. We have players like Horvat, but are we going to trade him? If Benning does, he should be fired and should be gone. 

 

[N4ZZY]

I agree that we need to begin to accumulate high end draft picks. Nolan Patrick may not be a first line centre, but if he's an excellent 2nd line centre, he may be a decent first liner, and Horvat could be the excellent second line centreman. 1-2 punch down the middle for years to come. Sutter is your prototypical third line centreman. But Benning just doesn't want to admit it. I wouldn't be surprised if Sutter doesn't make it to 20 goals this year, considering the team's offensive woes. 

 

[Scorevat]

47 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

who are the very promising kids in the minor you speak of? other than Boeser who's doing well in NCAA.. the entire utica team is so bad right now it's not even funny.. other than Grenier who's not really a prospect.. and subban realistically will never make the team whom are producing right now.. the entire team have 0 offense just like their parent club.. and both goalies are getting lit up like xmas trees..

Gaudette, Lockwood are doing fine in the NCAA are they not?

[wai_lai416]

1 minute ago, Kassassinate said:

Gaudette, Lockwood are doing fine in the NCAA are they not?

lol that's not the minor league.. competition level is not even comparable

[Bruce Boudreau]

8 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

So you are putting a lot of the onus on Jim Benning.  If there was one thing I really don't like about him, it is his arrogance or pride.  I sometimes feel as though he is too proud to admit his mistakes, and puts pressure on the coach and team to make sure his vision becomes reality.  I think he pressured WD to continue playing Vey and Virtanen.  He decided to not pull any trades last deadline because he did not feel like he was getting a fair deal.  He did not re-claim Emerson Etem even though he had every right and cause to do so.  

 

There's always other sides to this argument but he is definitely stubborn and probably very arrogant.  Now the team is paying the price.

 

His main problem is he thinks the Canucks are similar to Boston he has mentioned a few times in the past how Vancouver is like Boston in that when he showed up Boston was a bad team and by 20111 were Cup champs so he believes in a 5 year plan.

 

Well this is year 3 now and looking more like a 10 year plan to get back to the Cup Finals instead of 5. Or at least having a team capable of winning more than 1 playoff round is gonna take a minimum of 4 more years forget the Cup just to have a legit playoff team will take that long.

 

They need guys like Subban and Stecher and Boeser and Juolevi and Demko to develop as expected along with Virtanen and continued improvement from Horvat and Baertschi plus a surprise or two from guys like Gaudette, Cassels, Lockwood, Tryamkin and or Pedan etc.

 

That is a lot to ask not every young player I mentioned will be on the Canucks in 3-4 years as expected by some Canucks fans.

 

A quarter of the current prospect group will probably bust meaning they will not reach their potential expected when they were drafted.

[asian player]

2 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol that's not the minor league.. competition level is not even comparable

correct, it is not even comparable. NCAA is much higher level of competition. 

[asian player]

18 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

So you are putting a lot of the onus on Jim Benning.  If there was one thing I really don't like about him, it is his arrogance or pride.  I sometimes feel as though he is too proud to admit his mistakes, and puts pressure on the coach and team to make sure his vision becomes reality.  I think he pressured WD to continue playing Vey and Virtanen.  He decided to not pull any trades last deadline because he did not feel like he was getting a fair deal.  He did not re-claim Emerson Etem even though he had every right and cause to do so.  

 

There's always other sides to this argument but he is definitely stubborn and probably very arrogant.  Now the team is paying the price.

That wasn't really my point. I thought he drew up a solid plan to ice a competitive team. The team is no longer competitive and we'll see if he adjusts. I've defended Benning and his moves many times and he hasn't done anything for that to change. What may now be a problem is not what he is doing, but what he is not doing. If he continues down this path, it may be problematic. 

[Hairy Kneel]

A trial of futility.

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

TL;DR: Benning's legacy will consist of a few things.  That arrogant, stubborn attitude and unwillingness to admit his mistakes.  A good eye for scouting at the draft (not perfect but pretty remarkable), serious asset mismanagement, and rushing his prospects.

 

To go further on that last point.  He has taken our three best prospects during his time here and fast-tracked them into the NHL.  It is so risky and the team is now paying the price.  Horvat was quiet but good in his first games and earned his spot.  McCann had an excellent preseason and seemed to offer that much needed scoring.  Nine games in it was clear that he was a bit too small and a bit too young still.  Benning rushed him and now we have to move on.

 

I think Virtanen will get Benning fired.  We can say he's not getting chances but his NHL career so far has been unremarkable.  He was totally rushed last year.  Did not stand out early on but he stayed with the team.  Now it's become a frustrating time for himself and for the fans.

 

It is a godsend that Brock Boeser is still in college and playing good hockey.  Because he would 100% be playing on this crap team right now and suffering like everyone else if he went pro.  This might also be a tendency of Desjardins rushing his prospects, but it feels like Benning here.  I think WD knows how tough it is to scratch or bench developing bluechips. Or maybe not.

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

19 minutes ago, asian player said:

That wasn't really my point. I thought he drew up a solid plan to ice a competitive team. The team is no longer competitive and we'll see if he adjusts. I've defended Benning and his moves many times and he hasn't done anything for that to change. What may now be a problem is not what he is doing, but what he is not doing. If he continues down this path, it may be problematic. 

That seems pretty much in line with my post.  Benning... never does anything.  It's the story of his time here.  Prospects struggling after nine games?  Leave them.  Trade deadline?  Make excuses.  Reclaim Etem?  Nope.  Mistakes made?  Never!

[Twilight Sparkle]

1 hour ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

TL;DR: Benning's legacy will consist of a few things.  That arrogant, stubborn attitude and unwillingness to admit his mistakes.  A good eye for scouting at the draft (not perfect but pretty remarkable), serious asset mismanagement, and rushing his prospects.

 

To go further on that last point.  He has taken our three best prospects during his time here and fast-tracked them into the NHL.  It is so risky and the team is now paying the price.  Horvat was quiet but good in his first games and earned his spot.  McCann had an excellent preseason and seemed to offer that much needed scoring.  Nine games in it was clear that he was a bit too small and a bit too young still.  Benning rushed him and now we have to move on.

 

I think Virtanen will get Benning fired.  We can say he's not getting chances but his NHL career so far has been unremarkable.  He was totally rushed last year.  Did not stand out early on but he stayed with the team.  Now it's become a frustrating time for himself and for the fans.

 

It is a godsend that Brock Boeser is still in college and playing good hockey.  Because he would 100% be playing on this crap team right now and suffering like everyone else if he went pro.  This might also be a tendency of Desjardins rushing his prospects, but it feels like Benning here.  I think WD knows how tough it is to scratch or bench developing bluechips. Or maybe not.

the virtanen deal is a tough one for me. you can't blame benning for "rushing" anyone, but we also have to factor in how ownership wants things run-- we can't forget that. for years, canucks fans screamed for a youth movement, but under vigs, any young guys saw very little ice time, because he knew what he was doing, and we all wanted him gone for that. we'll forget about the tortorella year, but even the biggest torts hater had to have saw where he was coming from in how he dealt with ownership, being the puppet that he was, which lead to his firing, and that whole burial article tsn or cbc, whichever hierarchy media outlet, wrote that story of the aquillinis micromanaging every move gillis made at the time, before he was let go; this team was a mess

 

now they bring in a coach, who is clearly not an NHL level coach and he had a pretty good first year, but that was due that we still had a pretty decent team, but losing in that flames series really exposed willie that he can't keep up in this league. the following year further reflected that, and here we are now, 8 losses in a row, and i've stated that willie's done by december, he has to be. i'm not one of these people are are all, "fire the coach just cause," but this team has zero structure and it's absolute agony to watch

 

but when it all comes down to it, how much of the blame is really on the coach, or the gm, or the president. you look at who's really running the show

[SaintPatrick33]

Lets be realistic, since we never had the chance to pick a true franchise player at the top of the draft, in particular this past year where we dropped down to 5th with the 3rd worst record, this will be at the very least a 4 to 5 year plan.

 

Our current batch of prospects will take a minimum of 4 years to develop, just like the Sedins and Kesler. The only thing JB could have done better would be to add draft picks and not sign any big name FA, but then he has the pressure to win now. Some may attribute this to the owner, others may attribute this to the lack of fan support during losing seasons. The reality right now his that the Sedins have lost a step and our coach is not able to put our youngsters in positions to succeed. We would be saying the same thing about any other GM who was hired after Gillis. I will give JB, as I have stated from the beginning a min of 5 years and then see how the team is. 

 

I think most of you guys started watching the Nucks during the WCE. Having seen the 70s and 80s, this is nothing. 

[Twilight Sparkle]

3 minutes ago, SaintPatrick33 said:

Lets be realistic, since we never had the chance to pick a true franchise player at the top of the draft, in particular this past year where we dropped down to 5th with the 3rd worst record, this will be at the very least a 4 to 5 year plan.

 

Our current batch of prospects will take a minimum of 4 years to develop, just like the Sedins and Kesler. The only thing JB could have done better would be to add draft picks and not sign any big name FA, but then he has the pressure to win now. Some may attribute this to the owner, others may attribute this to the lack of fan support during losing seasons. The reality right now his that the Sedins have lost a step and our coach is not able to put our youngsters in positions to succeed. We would be saying the same thing about any other GM who was hired after Gillis. I will give JB, as I have stated from the beginning a min of 5 years and then see how the team is. 

 

I think most of you guys started watching the Nucks during the WCE. Having seen the 70s and 80s, this is nothing. 

some people here weren't even watching then. i started watching during the messier era and a 10 year old me wasn't happy what i was seeing. i'm not gonna go back and watch seasons of the 70's and 80's because i don't care. what people care about now, is what's happening in the present time. in present time, it doesn't matter if you compare the team's struggles now, to, like 1973, it doesn't matter. this is bullcrap TV, and this team, from top to bottom, is a gong show

[SaintPatrick33]

17 minutes ago, Twilight Sparkle said:

some people here weren't even watching then. i started watching during the messier era and a 10 year old me wasn't happy what i was seeing. i'm not gonna go back and watch seasons of the 70's and 80's because i don't care. what people care about now, is what's happening in the present time. in present time, it doesn't matter if you compare the team's struggles now, to, like 1973, it doesn't matter. this is bullcrap TV, and this team, from top to bottom, is a gong show

 

Agree on the not watching the earlier years, because those were horrible. Right now, all we can do is watch the Sedins decline while our coach refuses to give ice time to the younger players. In fact, there is little to no chemistry because we change lines literally every 10 minutes. No wonder Jake popped off on the lines and his ice time. Watching other teams in this salary cap era who play their youngsters in top 6 minutes makes me frustrated as well. If anything needs to change right away, it is this BS about playing certain players over others because of politics. We did the same with Higgins, Burr, Weber, Bartkowski last year etc etc. 

 

We need a coach who knows how to develop and give confidence to young guys, because right now there is none. Yea sure lets teach Bo defence when he has improved his offensive skillset more than anyone would imagine. Jake has regressed from his rook year, doesnt even throw a big hit nowadays. Bear is invisible. 

 

Not sure what else we can do to make this season a benefit to our future other than changing some of these brain dead strategies. IE vs the Leafs, why were the Sedins out on draws in the defensive zone? Led to 2 goals on us. 

 

Nuck Luck is what it is, we are always stuck with bad luck. 

[Twilight Sparkle]

3 minutes ago, SaintPatrick33 said:

 

Agree on the not watching the earlier years, because those were horrible. Right now, all we can do is watch the Sedins decline while our coach refuses to give ice time to the younger players. In fact, there is little to no chemistry because we change lines literally every 10 minutes. No wonder Jake popped off on the lines and his ice time. Watching other teams in this salary cap era who play their youngsters in top 6 minutes makes me frustrated as well. If anything needs to change right away, it is this BS about playing certain players over others because of politics. We did the same with Higgins, Burr, Weber, Bartkowski last year etc etc. 

 

We need a coach who knows how to develop and give confidence to young guys, because right now there is none. Yea sure lets teach Bo defence when he has improved his offensive skillset more than anyone would imagine. Jake has regressed from his rook year, doesnt even throw a big hit nowadays. Bear is invisible. 

 

Not sure what else we can do to make this season a benefit to our future other than changing some of these brain dead strategies. IE vs the Leafs, why were the Sedins out on draws in the defensive zone? Led to 2 goals on us. 

 

Nuck Luck is what it is, we are always stuck with bad luck. 

speaking of coaches who develop young players, call me crazy, but i actually loved how hartley ran the flames' young guys while he was there. he did it all-- let them play but also showed them tough love when they needed it, and he really made that a pretty threatening club to play against because he knew what those kids were capable of, because, whether people like bob hartley or not, he was an NHL coach.

 

i have flames fans friends who werent happy when hartley got canned, and they're even more pissed off that they have gulutzen, because he's just not an NHL level coach, and was canucks spare parts. the flames have all the talent in the world, and they shouldn't be shut out 5-0; embarrassed by an injury-riddled LA kings team. upper management ****s up, and the only people who really suffer, are the fans