SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 31 minutes ago, Jägermeister said: In addition to coaching, they also aren't good. And possibly unlucky? There've been quite a few good chances that haven't gone in. But yeah, the biggest factor is probably the weakness of the roster. Coaching and puck luck are secondary issues (which isn't to say they're insignificant). It's tough to really know what's going wrong without doing a careful, detailed, multilevel analysis of the games. I'd want to see both stats (differentials for possession, scoring chances, etc) and eye test findings (how engaged do they look, how are they skating, concentration, focus, structure, etc) for the first five minutes from every game. If there's a pattern of poor starts in many in those areas, then I'd agree that the coaches aren't doing their jobs. At the moment, I can't say. I haven't watched the games closely enough, reviewed any video, or crunched the numbers (mostly because I'm too busy with kids since my wife is going back to grad school). But somebody with more time and the right inclination could certainly have a look at these things. But our failure to score first goals, over the limited sample of 15 games (and given the known issues with our roster strength and the poor puck luck several key players have had so far), isn't really enough information to say that Willie Desjardins isn't doing an adequate job in preparing the team. It might be the case. And it probably feels like it's true. But I'd need stronger evidence to support the conclusion that Desjardins deserves the lion's share of the blame for the team's failure to score first goals and their tendency to give up early goals against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOgRook Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 8 minutes ago, LaBamba said: I respectfully disagree. We have a lot of chances at the net. It's skill and finish we lack. Like I said we aren't skilled enough on the blue line to take chances and we aren't heavy enough to dump and chase. Look at this nut cracker. Even if we had a guy on each line willing to, or big enough to stand in front of the net, we still don't have a dman with a shot to use that screen. Lol it's like we don't have any interchangeable components to create offence. I have never seen anything like it. We cant cycle because cause we have no threat at the point. The other team just creates a box in front of the goalie. We past it to the point and the D have no screen because of the box. You can't go cross ice because of the box. You can't get to the net because of the box. We arent big enough to dump and chase. Who do we got in the top 6 that can hit a dman to turn the puck over? We do not have the players to score. We get shots and chances but the quality of shots are low and to the outside . We don't have the dangle to make things happen up close either. Makes me sad to think what it would be like to have a shooter like Laine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanGnome Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 8 minutes ago, TheOgRook said: Makes me sad to think what it would be like to have a shooter like Laine The offense would have been coached out of him, and in fact, WD wouldn't have played him he would have been benched like JV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 50 minutes ago, LaBamba said: if you know so much about coaching, tell us what WD is doing wrong systematically. You can't cycle without a threat at the point. We can't run and gun with 4 top 6 forwards. And we aren't big enough to dump and chase. For how talentless this team is on paper I am absolutely shocked that we are competitive at all. People are acting like giving Jake 5 more minutes of ice time would be the difference maker in our season. Or icing the forth line too much is why we can't score. What a joke. I believe WD will be fired, however who ever comes in is going to have just as much poop to work with. When he can't get it done we are looking at you Jim. Systematic problem: defence 1st strategy Cycle: the Sedins can do that - only chance is to let Loui and them gel Size: check the sheet again: Bo and Jake both 220+, Gaunce 217. Tryamkin is crushing people with regular checks. Talent: We do have an OK top 6 group of vets and kids, but they aren't going to score on Willie's d-1st mentality. Our D is solid and we've got good goalies too. There is a bubble playoff team there. But yes, a new coach exposes JB somewhat if that fails too, which is why we maybe aren't seeing that move just yet. But its not like he created the prospect gap or extended the twins. Bringing in Loui vs. tanking surely had Aquilini's stamp of approval. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOgRook Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 14 minutes ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said: And possibly unlucky? There've been quite a few good chances that haven't gone in. But yeah, the biggest factor is probably the weakness of the roster. Coaching and puck luck are secondary issues (which isn't to say they're insignificant). It's tough to really know what's going wrong without doing a careful, detailed, multilevel analysis of the games. I'd want to see both stats (differentials for possession, scoring chances, etc) and eye test findings (how engaged do they look, how are they skating, concentration, focus, structure, etc) for the first five minutes from every game. If there's a pattern of poor starts in many in those areas, then I'd agree that the coaches aren't doing their jobs. At the moment, I can't say. I haven't watched the games closely enough, reviewed any video, or crunched the numbers (mostly because I'm too busy with kids since my wife is going back to grad school). But somebody with more time and the right inclination could certainly have a look at these things. But our failure to score first goals, over the limited sample of 15 games (and given the known issues with our roster strength and the poor puck luck several key players have had so far), isn't really enough information to say that Willie Desjardins isn't doing an adequate job in preparing the team. It might be the case. And it probably feels like it's true. But I'd need stronger evidence to support the conclusion that Desjardins deserves the lion's share of the blame for the team's failure to score first goals and their tendency to give up early goals against. One of the best posters on here, hands down.. Wether I agree or disagree your posts the are always thoughtful. Ty for being you im not much of a numbers guy and not one to write a novel, but I've seen plenty live and watched the rest on tv. I have more positives than negatives to say. We've only played a stinker or two all season. Rookie mistakes, bad bounces and the occasional mess up from a vet... If we had Ericksson and Baer clicking this season may look different. Anything more specific to a player you were wondering about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOgRook Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 3 minutes ago, VanGnome said: The offense would have been coached out of him, and in fact, WD wouldn't have played him he would have been benched like JV. Lol not sure if you are trolling me? JV is in this place for a reason and it's not some weird personal vendetta from the coach. JV is not near the player Laine is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c00kies Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 Even the Detroit broadcast picked up on the fact that Willie looks nervous behind the bench. I believe the team picks up on this nervousness (or lack of confidence if you will) and plays nervously as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaBamba Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 5 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said: Systematic problem: defence 1st strategy Cycle: the Sedins can do that - only chance is to let Loui and them gel Size: check the sheet again: Bo and Jake both 220+, Gaunce 217. Tryamkin is crushing people with regular checks. Talent: We do have an OK top 6 group of vets and kids, but they aren't going to score on Willie's d-1st mentality. Our D is solid and we've got good goalies too. There is a bubble playoff team there. But yes, a new coach exposes JB somewhat if that fails too, which is why we maybe aren't seeing that move just yet. But its not like he created the prospect gap or extended the twins. Bringing in Loui vs. tanking surely had Aquilini's stamp of approval. This is all a bunch of opinionated rubbish. The Sedin's cycle lives and dies by who is at the point. If they can't stretch that box out in front of the net they are done. We are playing a D 1st system BECAUSE WE HAVE D 1ST D-MEN!!!!! Do you think we would be playing this system with 6 PK Subbans? You are blaming WD for playing more structured? I'm 100% positive Linden and Benning both ASKED WD to play a more structured system. This is well documented on more than 1 occasion. He had to do what he is told. Regardless, how can you use this theory last night for example? The team had plenty of SOG. What else can you possible ask for? We have no dangle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Shotgun Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 Willie D is on borrowed time. The situation is not entirely his fault but the coach is always the first to go. Not always fair but it's standard operating procedure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beary Sweet Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 I wouldn't want to blame Willie for our early season struggles. The team is "rebuilding on the fly" while being "competitive". Whether that remains true or not, I see us being in the mix for a playoff spot but I don't necessarily see us making it. We are done restocking our D and goaltending with Try, Subban, Juolevi, Brisebois, Demko, Garteig, etc. We are missing that one offensive spark plug who can score or set up that tying goal while we're trailing in the game. Patrick, Comtois and Vilardi all yell hello! I don't want to tank but I don't rule out getting #1 overall either. Willie is a great coach but it's more of what he has to work with which is why the team is performing like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hectic Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 I'm confused. Don't you guys want the Canucks to lose so we get a high draft pick? Isn't this exactly what you asked for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIBdaQUIB Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 1 hour ago, LaBamba said: I have played a high level of hockey as well. I have been on great teams and 2016 Canucks bad teams. You know what I have learned? The better players you have the more goals you score. The better the coach the fewer goals you let in. You cannot score on systems alone. You need to know how to fool a goalie. So...if your "good coach" has all his talented players focused on playing defence in a system that does not reward offensive risks, do your talented players still score? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neko Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 Put Horvat on an offensive role, he has shown glimpse of offensive hunger while playing a defensive role... Willie needs to quit doing this stuff to the players. And Dorsett on the second line, can anyone make sense of that? Yeah it's Willie doing things that grinds against the grain of these players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABNuck Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 STATS PARTY!! OK so we are last in goals for, and 3rd to last in SF/GM...let's see how we stack up shall we: CBJ avg 3.08 GF/GM on an avg of 26.7 SF/GM MTL avg 3.29 GF/GM on an avg of 27.5 SF/GM VAN avg 1.80 GF/GM on an avg of 28.1 SF/GM ARI avg 2.77 GF/GM on an avg of 28.1 SF/GM MIN avg 3.08 GF/GM on an avg of 28.1 SF/GM CHI avg 3.43 GF/GM on an avg of 28.3 SF/GM CAL avg 2.47 GF/GM on an avg of 28.5 SF/GM I could do this all night but the facts seem to prove something outright...we get just as many shots on net as teams who are scoring far more than we are...FAR more. So what does that mean? One of two things (and I believe it to be a combination of both): 1/ Our system (COACH) doesn't allow for those shots on net to create good scoring chances (either quality first shot or rebound/crash net second chance)... 2/ Pure scorers (PLAYERS). We lack them. Every year we hope for this or that to happen (not so many injuries, quality F/A to save us all with their goal scoring prowess etc etc)...truth is, we're a team of plugs. I used to complain that we were a team that has a legit 1st line but dropped off to a 3rd line and two 4th lines. This year, due to the speed / creativity that I've witnessed from the twins, I rescind that / modify my assessment: we are a team with a 2nd line / a 3rd line and two 4th lines. Tell me, where are the goals gonna come from? The problem is both the system and the lack of talent. We all wanna blame Willie for the system, but if you had a team full of plugs and you were charged with the task of coming up with a system, wouldn't you lean towards a defensive system too? You gotta play the game with the hand you're dealt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIBdaQUIB Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 WD is on record as saying this is not a development league...that is BS. Every rookie playing is being developed, including McDavid. No one arrives in the NHL as a fully rounded and capable NHLer. The Sedins took years to develop into the offensive force they were/are. Top coaches recognize that young players have warts and there will be mistakes and pain. They are able to develop those players in the pro environment. Wally Buono has turned the Lions around in short order largely because he has allowed rookies (in particular his QB) to develop in the league and make mistakes. When asked about his QB's early struggles, he stated "if you can't stand the pain (of their mistakes) you will never see them attain greatness" - or words to that effect. Scotty Bowman had the same approach to rookies including with Datsyuk, Yzerman and others. WD himself said Jake needs to play where he won't get benched if he makes a mistake. This is NOT how you develop young talent. Putting Baertschi in a 4th line role to learn defence when he got to the league by being a dynamic offensive talent is NOT how you develop youth. Pigeon-holing a mature-beyond-his-years Bo Horvat as a shut down centerman and deploying him as such despite his leading the team last half of last season in points and showing offensive flair is NOT how you develop him. WD's mindset is win now and he believes the way to do that is to play vets or youth (who play like vets) in conservative roles. If the kids make mistakes, they are not to be trusted and instead of putting them in positions to make a difference (and build confidence) you play guys like Dorett in the top 6 in key situations. The Nucks are not an overly talented team but they do have players who can and have scored. The mindset WD has the team playing with is not conducive to generating offence nor is it healthy to develop youth in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIBdaQUIB Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 5 minutes ago, ABNuck said: STATS PARTY!! OK so we are last in goals for, and 3rd to last in SF/GM...let's see how we stack up shall we: CBJ avg 3.08 GF/GM on an avg of 26.7 SF/GM MTL avg 3.29 GF/GM on an avg of 27.5 SF/GM VAN avg 1.80 GF/GM on an avg of 28.1 SF/GM ARI avg 2.77 GF/GM on an avg of 28.1 SF/GM MIN avg 3.08 GF/GM on an avg of 28.1 SF/GM CHI avg 3.43 GF/GM on an avg of 28.3 SF/GM CAL avg 2.47 GF/GM on an avg of 28.5 SF/GM I could do this all night but the facts seem to prove something outright...we get just as many shots on net as teams who are scoring far more than we are...FAR more. So what does that mean? One of two things (and I believe it to be a combination of both): 1/ Our system (COACH) doesn't allow for those shots on net to create good scoring chances (either quality first shot or rebound/crash net second chance)... 2/ Pure scorers (PLAYERS). We lack them. Every year we hope for this or that to happen (not so many injuries, quality F/A to save us all with their goal scoring prowess etc etc)...truth is, we're a team of plugs. I used to complain that we were a team that has a legit 1st line but dropped off to a 3rd line and two 4th lines. This year, due to the speed / creativity that I've witnessed from the twins, I rescind that / modify my assessment: we are a team with a 2nd line / a 3rd line and two 4th lines. Tell me, where are the goals gonna come from? The problem is both the system and the lack of talent. We all wanna blame Willie for the system, but if you had a team full of plugs and you were charged with the task of coming up with a system, wouldn't you lean towards a defensive system too? You gotta play the game with the hand you're dealt. Yo also have to trust your players and give them the freedom to take advantage of mistakes and push the offensive envelope. Sticking to an overly restrictive and inflexible "system" designed to always look after defense sucks the offensive energy out of a team and they end up looking just like the Nukcsk where, yes, they can generate shots but as everyone is cheating on the defensive side, there is no one jamming the net, no one there for rebounds or to push the opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaBamba Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 15 minutes ago, DIBdaQUIB said: So...if your "good coach" has all his talented players focused on playing defence in a system that does not reward offensive risks, do your talented players still score? Biggest problem is our lack of offensively skilled Dmen. I don't care what system we play it's too easy to defend 3 average forwards with no repercussions from abandoning the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIBdaQUIB Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 1 minute ago, LaBamba said: Biggest problem is our lack of offensively skilled Dmen. I don't care what system we play it's too easy to defend 3 average forwards with no repercussions from abandoning the point. Offensive D talent is part of the problem but lots of teams don't have top offensive d men and they still generate far more quality offensive pressure than we are. I think it is part talent, part system combining for an overly restrictive playing style that stymies the offense. You can see how our forwards are always hanging back in the O-zone for fear of getting caught. We are a one-shot and fall back team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaBamba Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 12 minutes ago, ABNuck said: STATS PARTY!! OK so we are last in goals for, and 3rd to last in SF/GM...let's see how we stack up shall we: CBJ avg 3.08 GF/GM on an avg of 26.7 SF/GM MTL avg 3.29 GF/GM on an avg of 27.5 SF/GM VAN avg 1.80 GF/GM on an avg of 28.1 SF/GM ARI avg 2.77 GF/GM on an avg of 28.1 SF/GM MIN avg 3.08 GF/GM on an avg of 28.1 SF/GM CHI avg 3.43 GF/GM on an avg of 28.3 SF/GM CAL avg 2.47 GF/GM on an avg of 28.5 SF/GM I could do this all night but the facts seem to prove something outright...we get just as many shots on net as teams who are scoring far more than we are...FAR more. So what does that mean? One of two things (and I believe it to be a combination of both): 1/ Our system (COACH) doesn't allow for those shots on net to create good scoring chances (either quality first shot or rebound/crash net second chance)... 2/ Pure scorers (PLAYERS). We lack them. Every year we hope for this or that to happen (not so many injuries, quality F/A to save us all with their goal scoring prowess etc etc)...truth is, we're a team of plugs. I used to complain that we were a team that has a legit 1st line but dropped off to a 3rd line and two 4th lines. This year, due to the speed / creativity that I've witnessed from the twins, I rescind that / modify my assessment: we are a team with a 2nd line / a 3rd line and two 4th lines. Tell me, where are the goals gonna come from? The problem is both the system and the lack of talent. We all wanna blame Willie for the system, but if you had a team full of plugs and you were charged with the task of coming up with a system, wouldn't you lean towards a defensive system too? You gotta play the game with the hand you're dealt. Excellent post. I would say the team as a whole is more defensively talented than offensively talented. Bad coaching. IMO would be coaching these guys in a offensively aggressive system. We play to our strengths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanaholic Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 2 hours ago, Jägermeister said: In addition to coaching, they also aren't good. MOSTLY they aren't that good and they know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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