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Canucks slow starts are a failure of coaching


*Buzzsaw*

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5 hours ago, *Buzzsaw* said:

What we are seeing as a common characteristic throughout this season are very slow starts for the Canucks.

 

We can't score first, we can't score in the first period, and most worryingly, we get scored on early... often in the first minute.

 

Other teams are very much aware of the Canucks weakness early... teams are told 'Canucks are shaky early', 'they can't score goals', 'get one early and the game is over'....  you can see it in every opponent... they come very hard and fast and just like Detroit, they are often rewarded.

 

And once the first goal happens, it sets the tone of the game... Canucks are fighting an uphill battle.

 

There is absolutely no excuse for the team giving up goals in the first 30 seconds or minute.  Any decently coached team should be able to weather the first few minutes of a game without conceding a goal.  Everyone is fresh, the coach can start his best defense pairing and best shutdown line, the instructions of the coaching staff should be clear.

 

So why are the Canucks consistently allowing goals early?

 

Sorry, but the blame has to be laid at the feet of the coaching staff and in particular Willie Desjardins.  If things don't change very soon, he should be replaced.

 

What BS. We have been all over teams even after losing the first. Montreal comes to mind. Go watch that game again and say the game is over or the Rangers game and even the Detroit game.

 

You plough through verbiage and half truths just to get to a conclusion that is not supported by your rant that Willie Desjardins is responsible. This is the AV witch hunt all over again. I wish you people would find another team or another sport an stop spewing more unsubstantiated rubbish in order to get another decent coach fired.

 

For your information I would suggest every team comes out intending to play hard, it's what teams do.

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1 minute ago, oldnews said:

Yeah I don't know - he came out of it last year, but seems to have regressed again.  WD is showing a lot of patience in him - again - but there comes a point where it's squarely on Baertschi and he's going to have to step up or move over.  Luckily for him, Rodin was injured and Etem didn't progress, but the patience only goes so far.

 

So I ask you this, And believe me I'm frustrated with Jakes effort level; why som much patience. With Sven and not with Jake?

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15 minutes ago, elvis15 said:

Why? Are you just saying this, or do you have actual reasons for why coaching decisions have led to the things you were talking about rather than those things being the fault of players?

 

It's a BuzzFeed thread. There is no rhyme, reason or sense to much of the verbal diarrhea he posts.

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Just now, riffraff said:

 

So I ask you this, And believe me I'm frustrated with Jakes effort level; why som much patience. With Sven and not with Jake?

Because our head coach is a friggin moron, who plays favourites.  I can see veterans getting the benefit of extra minutes to work their way through tough times, but they have proven before what they can do.  This shouldn't be the same for guys who have zero resume, like Baer and Granlund.  And isn't JV our best defence minded forward, considering the stats?

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2 minutes ago, riffraff said:

 

So I ask you this, And believe me I'm frustrated with Jakes effort level; why som much patience. With Sven and not with Jake?

I think Virtanen injured his shoulder early this year and is limited in the kind of physicality we want from him - just guessing, but the signs are there.

Second point would be that Jake is more important to the future of the franchise imo - and he's considerably younger, so they're working to make a "pro" of him in the early stages.

Baertschi is also waiver ineligible - whereas there is the option of big minutes for Jake in the AHL, so there is more flexibility and development options with Virtanen, whereas Baertschi either works it out in the lineup, or he's in the press box, and the next step would be waivers.  Those aren't really options imo given the loss of depth with injuries (and those scumbag Ducks taking from the poor on the waiver wire).  I guess the last point would be that Baertschi evidenced he can come out of it last year - and seems to have a pretty good relationship and chemistry with Horvat.....I honestly don't think WD has much of an option but to be patient with Baertschi, but if he's feeling anything like I am, I'd be giving him the odd bang on the ear (or whatever it is he needs to wake tf up).

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2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Because our head coach is a friggin moron, who plays favourites.  I can see veterans getting the benefit of extra minutes to work their way through tough times, but they have proven before what they can do.  This shouldn't be the same for guys who have zero resume, like Baer and Granlund.  And isn't JV our best defence minded forward, considering the stats?

 

He was until recently.  See @SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME Posts on these numbers.

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6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Because our head coach is a friggin moron, who plays favourites.  I can see veterans getting the benefit of extra minutes to work their way through tough times, but they have proven before what they can do.  This shouldn't be the same for guys who have zero resume, like Baer and Granlund.  And isn't JV our best defence minded forward, considering the stats?

He's not bad for a young forward, particularly powerforward, but have a look for yourself if you're interested in his underlying numbers of late....

https://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/ratings.php?disp=1&db=201617&sit=5v5&pos=skaters&minutes=25&teamid=29&type=corsi&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

 

In addition, I think Horvat's presence flatters both Baertschi and Virtanen - Bo is a beast, whose underlying numbers are somewhat misleading imo.

Aside from Skille, who like Gaunce is in at extremely low ozone starts, Baertschi and Virtanen are pulling the worst possession numbers on the team.

 

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1 minute ago, oldnews said:

I think Virtanen injured his shoulder early this year and is limited in the kind of physicality we want from him - just guessing, but the signs are there.

Second point would be that Jake is more important to the future of the franchise imo - and he's considerably younger, so they're working to make a "pro" of him in the early stages.

Baertschi is also waiver ineligible - whereas there is the option of big minutes for Jake in the AHL, so there is more flexibility and development options with Virtanen, whereas Baertschi either works it out in the lineup, or he's in the press box, and the next step would be waivers.  Those aren't really options imo given the loss of depth with injuries (and those scumbag Ducks taking from the poor on the waiver wire).  I guess the last point would be that Baertschi evidenced he can come out of it last year - and seems to have a pretty good relationship and chemistry with Horvat.....I honestly don't think WD has much of an option but to be patient with Baertschi, but if he's feeling anything like I am, I'd be giving him the odd bang on the ear (or whatever it is he needs to wake tf up).

 

Thanks.  Makes sense.  Not much easier to take, but reasonable thinkings.

 

i guess after that explanation I only wonder why the two scratches instead of simply sending the kid to the A.

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1 minute ago, oldnews said:

He's not bad for a young forward, particularly powerforward, but have a look for yourself if you're interested in his underlying numbers of late....

https://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/ratings.php?disp=1&db=201617&sit=5v5&pos=skaters&minutes=25&teamid=29&type=corsi&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

 

Gee, thanks for the GRAND MAL SIEZURE.  My God what was that?  :lol:

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7 minutes ago, Alflives said:

They are playing an EXTREMELY PASSIVE 1-2-2.  And off the rush we look to be thinking defence first, as guys hang back, or turn to play defence, even on scoring chances.  The structure is CLEARLY defensive.  

 

Honestly Alf have you any examples of that stuff. It's not what I see. Maybe you can quote a few examples from last night and I will have a look - or maybe it's just more of the uninformed hyperbole littering these boards just now.

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1 minute ago, riffraff said:

 

Thanks.  Makes sense.  Not much easier to take, but reasonable thinkings.

 

i guess after that explanation I only wonder why the two scratches instead of simply sending the kid to the A.

I don't know, but if it's partly a health thing, a few days off from the banging probably don't hurt - and I'm not intending to make excuses for Virtanen but I just don't think he's been anywhere near the physical presence that we've seen and is needed from him.  I don't think that's an indifference or confidence issue.  I've had a handful of serious shoulder injuries - they don't go away in a week or two - but you can 'play' with them after the more acute pain ceases.  I don't remember exactly which game it was, but Virtanen certainly appeared to aggravate his shoulder again and hasn't really looked himself since.

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5 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Gee, thanks for the GRAND MAL SIEZURE.  My God what was that?  :lol:

I highlighted the corsi for column for you - it's the dark black one - #21 on that list of 22 is named Virtanen.

 

That is to be expected with a young player, but the idea that he's one of our best defensive forwards  - with the likes of Sutter, Hansen, Horvat, Burrows, Eriksson around - is pretty far-fetched (and can't really be over-ruled by a small puck possession sample).

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1 minute ago, alfstonker said:

 

Honestly Alf have you any examples of that stuff. It's not what I see. Maybe you can quote a few examples from last night and I will have a look - or maybe it's just more of the uninformed hyperbole littering these boards just now.

On the Forche k we are a very passive 1-2-2.  Look at any time the other team has possession behind their own net.  That's when the 1-2-2 is easiest to see.  If there is a puck battle in the offensive zone then we move to a more standard 2-1-2, but that's only if the puck is free.  As soon as the other team gains possession, our guys back off.  It's hyper defensive systems, where guys (I'm certain of) are coached to stay on the defensive side of the puck.  That's why JV gets in trouble.  He's too often caught on the wrong side, no matter what zone he's in, so he loses the puck battle and ends up chasing the play.  He's not the only one chasing though.  We have a lot of players on the wrong side of their checks, who end up chasing.  

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4 minutes ago, oldnews said:

I don't know, but if it's partly a health thing, a few days off from the banging probably don't hurt - and I'm not intending to make excuses for Virtanen but I just don't think he's been anywhere near the physical presence that we've seen and is needed from him.  I don't think that's an indifference or confidence issue.  I've had a handful of serious shoulder injuries - they don't go away in a week or two - but you can 'play' with them after the more acute pain ceases.  I don't remember exactly which game it was, but Virtanen certainly appeared to aggravate his shoulder again and hasn't really looked himself since.

 

Yes.  I forget the opponent too but it was that play behind the net.  And obviously he's been pivoting to the opposite shoulder on hits and less physical overall.  Could be it for sure.

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2 minutes ago, oldnews said:

I highlighted the corsi for column for you - it's the dark black one - #21 on that list of 22 is named Virtanen.

 

That is to be expected with a young player, but the idea that he's one of our best defensive forwards  - with the likes of Sutter, Hansen, Horvat, Burrows, Eriksson around - is pretty far-fetched (and can't really be over-ruled by a small puck possession sample).

Thanks for the clarification.  I gotta learn these stats.  They are interesting.

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1 hour ago, oldnews said:

I don't agree regarding Sutter, but I've already made numerous posts about that.

 

If anyone has disappeared, it's Baertschi - they need him to hit the smelling salts hard - and that would probably make it easier for WD to boost Horvat's minutes as well, given that's his primary winger, and he's the vacant Baertschi we saw at the start of last season.   Bo is carrying him again.

I am a big supporter of Baertschi..but I have to agree he has to get 'off the schneid'..He's not as invisible as early last year,and he has been snakebitten almost every game this season .....If he's not scoring,he's not really doing a whole lot,except falling over......If they could get Jake going thats a huge bonus,because he is not a one dimensional player.

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6 hours ago, LaBamba said:

if you know so much about coaching, tell us what WD is doing wrong systematically. 

 

You can't cycle without a threat at the point. We can't run and gun with 4 top 6 forwards. And we aren't big enough to dump and chase. 

 

For how talentless this team is on paper I am absolutely shocked that we are competitive at all. 

 

People are acting like giving Jake 5 more minutes of ice time would be the difference maker in our season. Or icing the forth line too much is why we can't score. What a joke. I believe WD will be fired, however who ever comes in is going to have just as much poop to work with. When he can't get it done we are looking at you Jim. 

 

I would say Bennings moves have been good in general, the team he inherited was aging, on the decline, the cupboards were bare and we didn't have much in the way of assets to trade off... Add that to the fact that ownership obviously wouldn't green light a rebuild, I don't think Jim will or should be blamed for the lack of talent on this roster

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5 minutes ago, Davathor said:

 

I would say Bennings moves have been good in general, the team he inherited was aging, on the decline, the cupboards were bare and we didn't have much in the way of assets to trade off... Add that to the fact that ownership obviously wouldn't green light a rebuild, I don't think Jim will or should be blamed for the lack of talent on this roster

 

We could quite possibly be the lowest scoring cap team in the history of the NHL. Not Benning tho. 

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1 hour ago, MJDDawg said:

It's a BuzzFeed thread. There is no rhyme, reason or sense to much of the verbal diarrhea he posts.

I like to say BuzzKill, but that works too. And I know, he usually doesn't even stick around to reply in his own threads, but I was hoping someone might answer at least since a lot of people have been complaining about the coaching this year.

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