Conscience Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said: To be fair it was looking like the plan was to have him in the AHL then Rodin got hurt. That's when management should have signed ruutu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormriders Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Who knows what really happened with sending him down for two games, recall, no play, then back down again. Could be a number of reasons, but strange. What I think has happened is they told him to do 'somethings ?' going down, including attitude, work ethic etc. and when he came back and started practicing etc. it was the same old Jake. All talk no change, so right back down to get it right. Only thing that makes sense to me, otherwise management is bat$&!# crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Just now, Conscience said: That's when management should have signed ruutu I agree with that for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyBoy44 Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 On 16/11/2016 at 11:03 AM, dpn1 said: I have not criticized management a lot but their inexperience is starting to show and I agree with others when they say that WD seems to not be able to work with younger players. Starting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Am.Ironman Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 4 hours ago, Boeser said: My first post and as a bit of an "old timer" compared to many here (is my guess), I find the passion both great and at times funny! I notice a lot reading these boards and through the comments you can definitely discern a lot about people's biases! Firstly, to the "youngins" (and no offense intended), as you age one of the biggest mental abilities you can create for yourself is what's called emotional intelligence - it's knowing your biases and learning to separate yourself from them in order to be objective. Why I say this is I see a number of posts here that are not really very objective, full of emotion and really lacking a fair judgement on Virtanen to date. I understand a lot of people love this kid and I do and too as he has all the tools to be a great pro but..... here's the kicker folks, he's just not ready. Here's my take: A. This "oh they are jerking the poor kid around" by sending him up and down is absurd. How many players have we seen this happen to over the years and across teams? It happens all the time. So is Jake "special?" No he is not. They called him back, maybe to get his stuff for a year organized because he's staying in Utica, likely as another poster astutely mentioned to have a face to face on why, what he needs to do, and get him focussed. Heck last year people were "happy" for players like Gaunce and Pedan to come up and sit in the Press Box to earn an NHL check but now it's "jerking someone around?" - that double standard implies bias. B. Blaming WD is absurd. People keep saying he needs ice time. Again, is jake special? He doesn't have to show commitment on and off the ice an in game! to earn it?? This appears to actually be his ENTIRE issue, he doesn't seem to "get" how hard he has to work. Anyone can see WD has been reluctant to play young guys but when they show they can play he plays them. Bo, Hutton, Stecher, etc. People arguing Jake isn't getting fair treatment are not being objective. Many will say well look how long it took him to give Bo 17 mins a game- so what, issue is Bo FORCED him to do it via his play. He EARNED it. Saying he's "confused", "over coached" is an excuse for his lack of effort. Who here has watched his games and HONESTLY said "wow look at how hard Jake is working, WD needs to play him more!" If you're being objective no one has said that, because Jake has not done so this season. Last year there were times, this year no. Effort is in jake's control. C. Look around the league at Jake's peers who are playing and getting ice time, watch the games. I notice Ehlers most games trying to create, I notice Nylander (who played a year and a half in the AHL btw) trying to create, I notice the kid on Detroit trying to create, and sure they are more offensively gifted but I NOTICE them. I have not once this year really noticed a "hell of a shift from 18" - Again, effort is really easy folks and in his control. D. Does anyone here really believe that Jake has done his utmost in whatever ice time he's received to make an impact? To force WD to make a tough decision? It's not about ice time it's what you do with it. Does anyone not notice how hard Bo plays every shift? How about Stecher? You "notice" then even if they don't score right? How hard they got into corners, how hard they are skating. Jake can be screwing up positonally but is so fast it wouldn't matter to the coaches if he used his wheels to recover, but he's doing NOTHING with his ice time. Does anyone really believe that if Jake was giving that effort (regardless of numbers) he wouldn't be earning more ice time? Especially given our lacklustre play? Effort doesn't require ice time nor talent it's in ones head. E. Jake is better off in Utica and should have been back in junior last year. He is not a bust and he is not screwed up by WD. What he is, is a young kid, who has never had to really outwork players as he's moved up the ladder because of physical gifts and talent and has assumed he's "made it". His reaction to his ice time shows his lack of maturity and a lack of understanding of what it takes vs what he's "entitled" to. His view on what he needs to do to succeed are clearly not aligned with the reality of being a professional "anything". Your place in this world is earned, you are not entitled or owed anything and that's what he's now learning the hard way. It doesn't matter where you are drafted, it matters what you produce with your opportunities. Anywhere in this world, a young kid when given an opportunity has two choices, understand you have a great oppty and work very hard - this then endears you to your bosses- regardless of outcome as all they want to see early is heart and drive, or think you've "made it" and be taught a lesson. F. Jake is simply a young kid who needs to learn how to "work" now. This is quite normal for most young people and a shock to many young athletes when they come up against 28 yr old men fighting for 400k a year on two way contracts. That being said, people here need to stop acting like he's Cam Neely because I remember watching Cam and it was clear the way he played the game, that with the drive and effort he had he would succeed. The Jury is still out on Jake, he has all the tools but does he have the will and drive to succeed and that is on him and THAT is why he has been sent down- he has not shown it YET to any serious degree. He is not being "jerked around", he's being treated like a man and a professional making 1 mil a year that needs to earn his keep, just like everyone else. If they treated him differently he would be getting 2nd line ice , pp time etc - which any OBJECTIVE fan can see he has not earned. That would be the wrong message to him and the team. Simply put, the effort has not been there, and THAT has always been in his control. Green will turn his game around but the Canucks are doing the right thing and it has zero to do with WD, JB, aqua man, and everything to do with Jake. You can blame others all you want for your shortcomings and lack of success but there's a point where you have to ask, have I been giving it my all? I think if Jake looks himself in the mirror and asks that question they answer is clearly no. Stop sulking Jake, man up, grow up, and compete. And if you cannot, you don't deserve to be in the NHL and sadly will not be. Post often please; that was very well articulated. 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Boeser Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 5 minutes ago, I.Am.Ironman said: Post often please; that was very well articulated. Thank you for the compliment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viking mama Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 My guess is,... that with this extremely quick turn-around, both ways, it's likely some off-ice issue, too. Yes - this IS speculation,..it's what CDC does in an information vaccum,...but, perhaps Jake is getting a little too distracted by his fame, money & local friendships, and is not quite the professional he's expected to be, at a time when his team is struggling, as badly as they are. Hometowns put one under a fine micro-scope,..and there are fan-boy friends & fan-girls who will encourage selfish antics or venting rather than encourage a young/star rookie to tow the company-line with more eager enthusiasm. It's still a time for Jake to make sacrifices,..perhaps more than he has yet done before. Jake may think that he's arrived already, and has taken his foot off the pedal, in multiple ways that may need more correction. Just be a 'professional' Jake, no excuses. We all know you're still just a kid,...but if the maturity ain't there - it just ain't there. And if it is not - best to send him down for some more seasoning with Greener in a boot-camp environment, and alongside of all of those other players, chasing the NHL dream while grunting-out a living in the AHL. Instant humility has a way of giving guys some perspective, again. If Greener is on the short-list to replace Willy D,...it will be nicer for them both (Green/Virtanen) to get even better acquainted with one another in good times or bad, and better still for Jake to escape the inevitable distractions & relentless scrutiny he might otherwise be facing in his hometown environment, as long as he plays here through any kind of losing season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfstonker Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 2 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said: I think the AHL is the right place for Virtanen. Just like I thought junior was the right place for him last year. I think what has some upset is not that he is being sent down but the indecisiveness by management and coaching about it. He should have been there from the start of the year. I don't think he would have been here if it had been up to WD. It was obvious this was a management move imo. Willie also wanted Ruutu and not Skille and I think he was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boeser Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 29 minutes ago, viking mama said: My guess is,... that with this extremely quick turn-around, both ways, it's likely some off-ice issue, too. Yes - this IS speculation,..it's what CDC does in an information vaccum,...but, perhaps Jake is getting a little too distracted by his fame, money & local friendships, and is not quite the professional he's expected to be, at a time when his team is struggling, as badly as they are. Hometowns put one under a fine micro-scope,..and there are fan-boy friends & fan-girls who will encourage selfish antics or venting rather than encourage a young/star rookie to tow the company-line with more eager enthusiasm. It's still a time for Jake to make sacrifices,..perhaps more than he has yet done before. Jake may think that he's arrived already, and has taken his foot off the pedal, in multiple ways that may need more correction. Just be a 'professional' Jake, no excuses. We all know you're still just a kid,...but if the maturity ain't there - it just ain't there. And if it is not - best to send him down for some more seasoning with Greener in a boot-camp environment, and alongside of all of those other players, chasing the NHL dream while grunting-out a living in the AHL Instant humility has a way of giving guys some perspective, again. If Greener is on the short-list to replace Willy D,...it will be nicer for them both (Green/Virtanen) to get even better acquainted with one another in good times or bad, and better still for Jake to escape the inevitable distractions & relentless scrutiny he might otherwise be facing in his hometown environment, as long as he plays here through any kind of losing season. My guess is that is part of the maturity issues we see. Speculation yes but it's also a normal outcome of a young kid getting a lot of money and semblance of "fame" quickly. He's not going to mature in his environment and I think your comments are likely spot on and part of what the Canucks realize they need to do for him to "learn to be a pro". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 41 minutes ago, alfstonker said: I don't think he would have been here if it had been up to WD. It was obvious this was a management move imo. Willie also wanted Ruutu and not Skille and I think he was right. Neither would have Bo Horvat in his first year. It is obvious management has been pushing the prospects on Desjardins who would clearly prefer more veterans instead. I personally think that makes Desjardins the wrong coach for what management wants. It seems he just buries the players he doesn't want to force managements hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 5 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said: Neither would have Bo Horvat in his first year. It is obvious management has been pushing the prospects on Desjardins who would clearly prefer more veterans instead. I personally think that makes Desjardins the wrong coach for what management wants. It seems he just buries the players he doesn't want to force managements hand. Willie is working under the "win games now" mandate so it is in his best interests to play the experienced guys. If the mandate is play the yougins and develop them- don't worry so much about wins I'm sure Willie would play the younger folk. Miscommunication on this team must be a problem- so many competing goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfstonker Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 50 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said: Neither would have Bo Horvat in his first year. It is obvious management has been pushing the prospects on Desjardins who would clearly prefer more veterans instead. I personally think that makes Desjardins the wrong coach for what management wants. It seems he just buries the players he doesn't want to force managements hand. The point is as much as I like JB's drafting, his management of the progress of the team has been a f--up whether he has been pressured by the owners or not who knows. Willie has been right all along. Given the calibre (i.e. no top 3 and no A experienced prospects) and the physical development of players like McCann it was folly to push them into the team. (i.e. imo Willie wanted to go down the Leafs road where they waited until the Marlies were stocked and then plummeted for some high draft picks) However even the Leafs are struggling. Playing more vets as an interim measure, would have been the right thing to do but would have slowed up the rebuild that has now turned into a cluster--k - a slow up that was inevitable anyway given the standard of our rookies i.e. no top 3 drafts and the lack of replacements drafted by Gillis in Utica or before that Chicago. WD is being hammered for carrying out TL's instructions with a half full tool box and it is spurious to compare him with other Coaches who are not even close to a similar situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 Thanks for putting into words, what I have been thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuckleheadFan Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 4 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said: I think the AHL is the right place for Virtanen. Just like I thought junior was the right place for him last year. I think what has some upset is not that he is being sent down but the indecisiveness by management and coaching about it. He should have been there from the start of the year. His Junior team wasn't using him in key situations and I think the Canucks felt it would be better development for him here than in Calgary. If he was eligible for AHL last year, I bet he would have started there last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpluto96 Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 Maybe I'm stretching here but if you start the bigger picture, which is management decided to send him down to AHL during the road trip, as a long term move potentially for the whole year, then it's not that crazy with the Vancity trip in between. He gets to catch two games in Utica and come home to prepare for a long term move while practice with the Canucks. Once packed, he's moving to Utica. I don't get what all this heartburn is about mis-management. It's not a rarity that a player is called up and sent back or vice versa within a few days depending on organizational needs. And it's not crazy to allow a 19 year old a few days to prepare for the biggest life-altering relocation of his life is it? I hope he works his ass off and really become the guy we want him to be. I will continue to cheer for him as long as he's a Canuck/Comet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 42 minutes ago, alfstonker said: The point is as much as I like JB's drafting, his management of the progress of the team has been a f--up whether he has been pressured by the owners or not who knows. Willie has been right all along. Given the calibre (i.e. no top 3 and no A experienced prospects) and the physical development of players like McCann it was folly to push them into the team. (i.e. imo Willie wanted to go down the Leafs road where they waited until the Marlies were stocked and then plummeted for some high draft picks) However even the Leafs are struggling. Playing more vets as an interim measure, would have been the right thing to do but would have slowed up the rebuild that has now turned into a cluster--k - a slow up that was inevitable anyway given the standard of our rookies i.e. no top 3 drafts and the lack of replacements drafted by Gillis in Utica or before that Chicago. WD is being hammered for carrying out TL's instructions with a half full tool box and it is spurious to compare him with other Coaches who are not even close to a similar situation. Too much credit to Willie here. All he has really done is exactly what the previous two coaches did. It's not amazing to figure out that approach has only made us worse. He is trying to save his job which I understand. But a coach trying to save his job doesn't take the chances he needs to take to bring a team like this one to the next level. Desjardins is is a career minor league coach. Of course someone who spends that long coaching there will believe every player needs an extended stay in the AHL or juniors to develop. Unfortunately these young athletes now are infinitely more well conditioned and well prepared physically and mentally than they used to be. Some of them don't need the slow roast method and an NHL level coach can figure out which ones do and which ones don't. The best coaches get the most out of their players whether they are vets or rookies. I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that Desjardins has been getting the most out of this roster in his time here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 I should say that's not all on him either. Part of it is that some of the players he has had just don't seem to be able to get back to that sense of urgency they had years ago. He has to find a way though if he wants to stay an NHL coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 8 hours ago, Boeser said: My first post and as a bit of an "old timer" compared to many here (is my guess), I find the passion both great and at times funny! I notice a lot reading these boards and through the comments you can definitely discern a lot about people's biases! Firstly, to the "youngins" (and no offense intended), as you age one of the biggest mental abilities you can create for yourself is what's called emotional intelligence - it's knowing your biases and learning to separate yourself from them in order to be objective. Why I say this is I see a number of posts here that are not really very objective, full of emotion and really lacking a fair judgement on Virtanen to date. I understand a lot of people love this kid and I do too as he has all the tools to be a great pro but..... here's the kicker folks, he's just not ready. Here's my take: A. This "oh they are jerking the poor kid around" by sending him up and down is absurd. How many players have we seen this happen to over the years and across teams? It happens all the time. So is Jake "special?" No he is not. They called him back, maybe to get his stuff for a year organized because he's staying in Utica, likely as another poster astutely mentioned to have a face to face on why he's going down, what he needs to work on, and get him focussed. Heck last year people were "happy" for players like Gaunce and Pedan to come up and sit in the Press Box to earn an NHL check but now it's "jerking someone around?" - that double standard implies bias. B. Blaming WD is absurd. People keep saying he needs ice time. Again, is jake special? He doesn't have to show commitment on and off the ice and in game to earn it?!? This appears to actually be his ENTIRE issue, he doesn't seem to "get" how hard he has to work. Anyone can see WD has been reluctant to play young guys but when they show they can play he plays them. Bo, Hutton, Stecher, etc. People arguing Jake isn't getting fair treatment are not being objective. Many will say well look how long it took him to give Bo 17 mins a game- so what, the issue is Bo FORCED him to do it via his play. He EARNED it. Saying he's "confused", "over coached" is an excuse for his lack of effort. Who here has watched his games and HONESTLY said "wow look at how hard Jake is working, WD needs to play him more!" If you're being objective no one has said that, because Jake has not done so this season. Last year there were times, this year no. Effort is in jake's control. C. Look around the league at Jake's peers who are playing and getting ice time, watch the games. I notice Ehlers most games trying to create, I notice Nylander (who played a year and a half in the AHL btw) trying to create, I notice the kid on Detroit trying to create, and sure they are more offensively gifted but I NOTICE them. I have not once this year really noticed a "hell of a shift from 18" - Again, effort is really easy folks and in his control. D. Does anyone here really believe that Jake has done his utmost in whatever ice time he's received to make an impact? To force WD to make a tough decision? It's not about ice time it's what you do with it. Does anyone not notice how hard Bo plays every shift? How about Stecher? You "notice" them even if they don't score right? How hard they go into corners, how hard they are skating. Jake can be screwing up positonally but is so fast it wouldn't matter to the coaches (because they'd see the effort) if he used his wheels to recover, but he's doing NOTHING with his ice time. Does anyone really believe that if Jake was giving that 110% Bo or Stecher like effort (regardless of numbers) he wouldn't be earning more ice time? Especially given our lacklustre play? Effort doesn't require ice time nor talent it's in ones head. E. Jake is better off in Utica and should have been back in junior last year. He is not a bust and he is not screwed up by WD. What he is, is a young kid, who has never had to really outwork players as he's moved up the ladder because of physical gifts and talent and has assumed he's "made it". His reaction to his ice time shows his lack of maturity and a lack of understanding of what it takes vs what he's "entitled" to. His view on what he needs to do to succeed are clearly not aligned with the reality of being a professional "anything". Your place in this world is earned, you are not entitled or owed anything and that's what he's now learning the hard way. It doesn't matter where you are drafted, it matters what you produce with your opportunities. Anywhere in this world, a young kid when given an opportunity has two choices, understand you have a great oppty and work very hard - this then endears you to your bosses- regardless of outcome as all they want to see early is heart and drive, or think you've "made it" and be taught a lesson. F. Jake is simply a young kid who needs to learn how to "work" now. This is quite normal for most young people and a shock to many young athletes when they come up against 28 yr old men fighting for 400k a year on two way contracts. That being said, people here need to stop acting like he's Cam Neely because I remember watching Cam and it was clear the way he played the game, that with the drive and effort he had he would succeed. The Jury is still out on Jake, he has all the tools but does he have the will and drive to succeed and that is on him and THAT is why he has been sent down- he has not shown it YET to any serious degree. He is not being "jerked around", he's being treated like a man and a professional making 1 mil a year that needs to earn his keep, just like everyone else. If they treated him differently he would be getting 2nd line ice , pp time etc - which any OBJECTIVE fan can see he has not earned. That would be the wrong message to him and the team. Simply put, the effort has not been there, and THAT has always been in his control. Green will turn his game around but the Canucks are doing the right thing and it has zero to do with WD, JB, aqua man, and everything to do with Jake. You can blame others all you want for your shortcomings and lack of success but there's a point where you have to ask, have I been giving it my all? I think if Jake looks himself in the mirror and asks that question they answer is clearly no. Stop sulking Jake, man up, grow up, and compete. And if you cannot, you don't deserve to be in the NHL and sadly will not be. This post should be stickied or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickenman92 Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 I'm not going to comb through 18 pages, but this speaks volumes about Vancouver's cap management skills. Why call a player up, have him count against your cap, pay him NHL money as oppose to AHL money, not play him, and then send him down? I know it's not a huge chunk of space or money, but those 3 days that Jake was with the Canucks cost Aquaman thousands (925k or $15,247 in NHL vs 70k or $1,154 in AHL) of dollars and used up some cap space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabcakes Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 7 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said: I think the AHL is the right place for Virtanen. Just like I thought junior was the right place for him last year. I think what has some upset is not that he is being sent down but the indecisiveness by management and coaching about it. He should have been there from the start of the year. The optics of this "saga" are terrible but as the smoke clears, the decision is the right one. It's all a bit ham fisted imo. I got a couple of stories re sending Jake down the first time. Was it Willie? who said, he's going down for 2 games, then coming back. Later, Linden said he was going down, and after the 2 games last weekend, they were going to re-evaluate. Benning was down in Utica watching the 2 games and they both came back. Then presumably the management group met and did the re-evaluation and decided to send him back down. I can sorta make sense of it from a logical point of view based on what was said. And it doesn't have much to do with stuff. I'm getting that there has been a difference of opinion amongst the decision makers. Who is on what side God only knows. The Nux don't have anybody tough up front who isn't a lightweight. But c'mon long term is what counts with THIS squad right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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