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Mr. James Bennington the Third on 1040 Nov. 18th


Ossi Vaananen

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2 minutes ago, SILLY GOOSE said:

 

You seem so set in your beliefs despite the fact Sutter has been playing very well with the Sedins.  

 

Although I think WD is trying to avoid adding too much responsibility to Horvat given what happened last year, I'd love to see him test out a Eriksson, Horvat Hansen (when he returns).  

 

I was not saying Sutter hasn't played well with the Sedins. I am saying that from an overall roster perspective it is a band aid on a broken leg. 

 

Losing ng our best faceoff guy by putting him on the Sedins wing while letting a top 6 winger languish with limited opportunity is short term thinking.

 

I really like Sutter and think he is an important player. I just think the Canucks need him in other areas both to allow offensive players an opportunity to get going and to allow a player like Horvat to transition to a more offensive role.

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4 minutes ago, denniskearns said:

Yes, and hopefully give them offensive zone starts Willy seems reluctant to give Horvat.

 

26 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

Offensively, he's REALLY good at counter punching. That's the strength of his offensive game. He's also pretty good in his own end and creates offense transitioning from it. Sounds to me like WD is playing him to exactly his strengths and the twins to theirs.

 

What he needs to do is move Baer off his line.

 

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5 minutes ago, oldnews said:

I hate that kind of crap tbh.

 

Sbisa has looked good all year - Sbisa actually propped up Larsen and enabled him to do what he does by providing a solid stay at home presence for him.

 

The Vancouver talking heads will be scrambling to rescue the absolutely horrible 'analytics' and projections they've dumped on Sbisa for the past few years - and the attempt to credit Tryamkin with Sbisa's development is just more weak crap from that 'community'.

 

Tryamkin is and has been great.

 

But Sbisa deserves credit of his own accord.  He's not a product of Tryamkin.

 

I agree. Same as blaming Gudbranson for dragging Hitton down to deflect from a kid who on his own has been struggling.

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1 minute ago, oldnews said:

I hate that kind of crap tbh.

 

Sbisa has looked good all year - Sbisa actually propped up Larsen and enabled him to do what he does by providing a solid stay at home presence for him.

 

The Vancouver talking heads will be scrambling to rescue the absolutely horrible 'analytics' and projections they've dumped on Sbisa for the past few years - and the attempt to credit Tryamkin with Sbisa's development is just more weak crap from that 'community'.

 

Tryamkin is and has been great.

 

But Sbisa deserves credit of his own accord.  He's not a product of Tryamkin.

 

I agree that Sbisa deserves some credit of his own but am I the only one who feels that he looks even better now, compared to when he was playing with Larsen?

 

I think Sbisa is a solid #6 dman. On any given night, if Sbisa is at his best, he is solid defensively and wins puck battles in the defensive zone. And on the games when he is not on his best, you notice him turning the puck over and making poor decisions.

 

Earlier on in this season, I thought Sbisa played some good hockey, but there were nights when he wasn't so good. It could have been him or it could have been Larsen... but the last few games, with Tryamkin, I have almost never noticed Sbisa making a mistake.

 

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4 minutes ago, denniskearns said:

Yes, and hopefully give them offensive zone starts Willy seems reluctant to give Horvat.

 

Probably because Horvat is one of the best Canuck's (if not the best) at transitioning play from the D zone to the offensive zone.  It's a huge ask and he is doing the job beautifully

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1 minute ago, S'all Good Man said:

 

Actually your right handed shot option above explains it well, thanks.

 

I've decided not to argue with you and get humbled ::D

I didn't see it as an argument at all.

 

I just think that Benning has done what he has with intention - and guys like Eriksson, Sutter and Hansen are very versatile and can be used up and down the lineup  and in all situations.

 

Loui has still spent the vast majority of his 5 on 5 time with the twins - 60,4%, with his next most frequent line combination being with Sutter and Granlund (19.3%).

http://dobberhockey.com/players/Loui-Eriksson

 

I like Loui no matter who he plays with - really versatile two way player, so I like and appreciate the wealth of options, particularly when they need to try different things to generate more scoring / different matchups.  I think it's also good to keep opposition uncertain what they're going to facing / dealing with.

 

I know a lot of people were reeling after the loss to the Rangers - AV and that group can embarrass almost any team on a given night - but on a positive, I was almost shocked by that first period - it was almost throwback to five years ago - and doing that to a team that is a talented, deep and well coached as the Rags - I was impressed.

 

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3 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

I am not naive enough to think Desjardins is the only problem but he is a problem for sure. His decisions are counter productive to what this team needs to do.

 

If you are going to ride the Sedins then ffs put Eriksson with them and leave him there to find his way. Get him on the PP with them too because he is a better bet presence than anyone he uses in that role.

 

Double shifting Jack Skille ffs????? He is a throwaway much like Vey was before him. Give the opportunity to people who can maybe do something with it and who are in the plans of the team going forward.

 

Skille is playing better every game and was it not Skille who laid a sitter on for Bo? Do you think it is easy to come into the team where most of the faces, systems etc are new?

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20 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Oldnews I am interested to see your take on the stats Sid posted about players numbers with Eriksson and without him. And your take on Eriksson in general. Do you think Sutter is a better offensive player? What are you basing that on? 

That is a strawman I'm not going to bother with.

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11 minutes ago, oldnews said:

I hate that kind of crap tbh.

 

Sbisa has looked good all year - Sbisa actually propped up Larsen and enabled him to do what he does by providing a solid stay at home presence for him.

 

The Vancouver talking heads will be scrambling to rescue the absolutely horrible 'analytics' and projections they've dumped on Sbisa for the past few years - and the attempt to credit Tryamkin with Sbisa's development is just more weak crap from that 'community'.

 

Tryamkin is and has been great.

 

But Sbisa deserves credit of his own accord.  He's not a product of Tryamkin.

 

Ha! Noticed that you are using the same kind of argument. Sbisa propped up Larsen or Larsen propped up Sbisa? :)

 

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5 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

 

I agree. Same as blaming Gudbranson for dragging Hitton down to deflect from a kid who on his own has been struggling.

yeah, blaming Gudbranson for 'dragging Hutton down' would be just plain stupid - but I wouldn't put it past elements of the 'analytics' community - particularly the lot that are going to spend the next five years trying to rescue their absolutely horrible assessments of players like Gudbranson (and Sbisa).

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4 minutes ago, oldnews said:

I didn't see it as an argument at all.

 

I just think that Benning has done what he has with intention - and guys like Eriksson, Sutter and Hansen are very versatile and can be used up and down the lineup  and in all situations.

 

Loui has still spent the vast majority of his 5 on 5 time with the twins - 60,4%, with his next most frequent line combination being with Sutter and Granlund (19.3%).

http://dobberhockey.com/players/Loui-Eriksson

 

I like Loui no matter who he plays with - really versatile two way player, so I like and appreciate the wealth of options, particularly when they need to try different things to generate more scoring / different matchups.  I think it's also good to keep opposition uncertain what they're going to facing / dealing with.

 

I know a lot of people were reeling after the loss to the Rangers - AV and that group can embarrass almost any team on a given night - but on a positive, I was almost shocked by that first period - it was almost throwback to five years ago - and doing that to a team that is a talented, deep and well coached as the Rags - I was impressed.

 

 

I really enjoyed that 1st period, it was a lot of fun to watch. Even Tryamkin was taking shots. That one could easily have gone either way. I really liked AV as a coach, didn't think he needed to go or was the issue at all. It could be a stretch but if Lu had a smaller ego and accepted his role in the playoff loss better he might still be here.

 

I have to start learning how to use that site for the actual numbers.

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17 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

I can't argue it, but we've seen the last 4 years throw everything BUT what is needed at the walls in hopes it sticks.  None of the right stuff has sadly.

 

Can't argue with Sutter Hansen etc but the absolute lack of any production off of the back end and unending forcing 2 way play has completely killed the offence of this team

 

Whether that's coaching or roster.  It's not a good recipe for success

I guess the question then is what is the "right stuff?"

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1 hour ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

Likely more the latter. The demographics in the GTA make it nearly impossible to have poor attendance. You've got over six million people in an area where hockey is hugely popular and with the history of an Originals Six team woven into the fabric of the identity of the city. 

 

It's actually shocking that the Leafs dipped slightly below selling out last year (while tanking hard). There're just so many people living there who want to come out and watch hockey.

 

Of course, the excitement of their young roster and newly drafted star players makes the Toronto hockey experience much more entertaining now than in many years past. And maybe smaller markets could survive a full on tank job if they'd also managed to secure first overall in the lottery during a year with high end talent at the top of the draft.

 

But Toronto could have survived a tank and stayed profitable even if they'd lost the lottery and hadn't secured a nice crop of young star talent. Even mismanaged teams and drafting futility seems to "sell" in Toronto.

 

The same can't be said for the smaller Canadian markets.

 

This is a team that missed the playoffs ten times in the past eleven seasons. And one that's basically working on a rebuild of a rebuild of a rebuild. Yet they had an 13-year sellout streak that only ended in March 2015.

 

They're "doing it right" as far as rebuilding goes but they're also in a position where any other plan than the one they're implementing wouldn't make much sense. They're pretty much guaranteed to make money whatever they do. Their market supported some truly awful teams. Not so much because their fanbase is loyal but just that the market is so huge (population wise, one could might even argue that Canucks fans have shown more loyalty over the years). 

 

They've tried and failed at restocking and retooling the team. They iced some terrible lineups. And they still sold out their building. So they found themselves in a situation where tanking was an easy choice with very little consequences. Given their history the past decade, I really can't imagine them taking any different path than the one they're currently on.

 

They do have a solid management group with some good hockey minds but the Toronto rebuild isn't some genius plan. It's pretty much the most obvious path for a team in their unique situation.

Great response.  Thanks! 

Do you think the fact that as soon as they cleaned house, then new management and coach stated that the rebuild would be painful and long helped?  I guess what I'm asking is if JB came straight out and send we are in full rebuild, we are going to lose a lot of games, but we are going to get the ship going in the right direction.  Or something along those lines.  Would the fan base in Vancouver actually be okay with that?  Or would we just see empty seats until we are competitive? 

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3 minutes ago, oldnews said:

That is a strawman I'm not going to bother with.

 

It's not a straw man, it's an honest question that I am curious about. You typically use analytics to support your opinions so I was curious about what your take was.  I wasn't suggesting he is or isn't, only asking what you think.

 

Its called having a conversation and asking for someone else's opinion. 

 

Although I have to admit I have been patiently waiting for you to hit your strawman outburst quota today.

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46 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Horvat is on par with the twins right now, and with some more opportunity could surpass them. 

Which in return could help the sedins with some of the weight taken off them

I think one area where Horvat can improve and learn from the Sedins is that he could better utilize his linemates.

 

A lot of times, he makes a great move to penetrate the defence, but then, there is no option left but to take a bad angle shot (one and out) or run the puck around the boards (chance to get cut off by goalie or defenceman).

 

Otherwise, I agree. Horvat should be able take some weight off of the Sedins.

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3 minutes ago, oldnews said:

yeah, blaming Gudbranson for 'dragging Hutton down' would be just plain stupid - but I wouldn't put it past elements of the 'analytics' community - particularly the lot that are going to spend the next five years trying to rescue their absolutely horrible assessments of players like Gudbranson (and Sbisa).

 

Analytics can be used to support any pre-conceived outcome you want them to. There is far too much of that type of leaning wishing the anslytics community too. Ironic considering the very idea of analytics is objective, stat-based evidence to determine the conclusion, not support one you already thought.

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3 minutes ago, khay said:

 

Ha! Noticed that you are using the same kind of argument. Sbisa propped up Larsen or Larsen propped up Sbisa? :)

 

yes.  and.  not 'either/or'  that is/was the point.

 

So, Sbisa is also helping make Tryamkin look good.  right.

 

Complementary. 

 

Sbisa is his own man and he's playing very good hockey imo - a very solid 5th D that I'd be comfortable stepping up again (something he's had to do repeatedly his first two seasons here).

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It actually blows me away the endless $&!# that Sbisa gets. Gudbranson is shaping up to as well. 

 

I I personally think Sbisa has improved his consistency and has been able to step up to the top 4 at times without hurting us. What more can people expect from him? He is a solid d in my mind.

 

Edit: yes I know many analytics people will say I am wrong. Still gotta watch the games and understand that defense especially has many nuances and intricacies that don't always line up well to statistical analysis though.

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3 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

 

It's not a straw man, it's an honest question that I am curious about. You typically use analytics to support your opinions so I was curious about what your take was.  I wasn't suggesting he is or isn't, only asking what you think.

 

Its called having a conversation and asking for someone else's opinion. 

 

Although I have to admit I have been patiently waiting for you to hit your strawman outburst quota today.

Dude - you play the "what are you basing that on?" game, where there was no claim in the first place that 'Sutter is a better offensive player than Eriksson'.

Sorry - don't have much patience for that kind of manipulative 'conversation'.

You earn every strawman you get wallstreet.

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4 minutes ago, oldnews said:

I guess the question then is what is the "right stuff?"

Playmaking winger to go with our shoot first center.  True PMD on the back end.  And 1 allowable offense first C/W

 

That's my opinion only.  

 

Off season everyone got excited about our defense.  Except it didn't get better, offensively by the numbers it got worse.  It didn't really get deeper or more skilled as it was (stecher not withstanding) 

 

We gave away McCaan who had the possible playmaking ability.  We continue to see our offensive players ground in to two way players.

 

We're 2-3 years out and a significant mindshift away from true competition.  And by that tie, IF we've figured it out and started acquiring/drafting or developing (without trading) those players we're in tight in our division and conference that continued to get younger faster and more skilled while we tinkered.

 

It is what it is.  My sadness stems from the fact we've seen this every decade and we're seeing it again.  Accumulate youth, and instead of doing it right for a number of years we start looking for faster options.

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