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Mr. James Bennington the Third on 1040 Nov. 18th


Ossi Vaananen

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1 minute ago, J.R. said:

 

One year but yes, that's a possibility. 

It just makes too much sense - Financially - for these top college guys to come out as early as possible, and start eating in to their ELC's.  Then they can get to their UFA status at a younger age.

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19 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Playmaking winger to go with our shoot first center.  True PMD on the back end.  And 1 allowable offense first C/W

 

That's my opinion only.  

 

Off season everyone got excited about our defense.  Except it didn't get better, offensively by the numbers it got worse.  It didn't really get deeper or more skilled as it was (stecher not withstanding) 

 

We gave away McCaan who had the possible playmaking ability.  We continue to see our offensive players ground in to two way players.

 

We're 2-3 years out and a significant mindshift away from true competition.  And by that tie, IF we've figured it out and started acquiring/drafting or developing (without trading) those players we're in tight in our division and conference that continued to get younger faster and more skilled while we tinkered.

 

It is what it is.  My sadness stems from the fact we've seen this every decade and we're seeing it again.  Accumulate youth, and instead of doing it right for a number of years we start looking for faster options.

That is a good shopping list for sure - but are they really options for WD to turn to in the present to come up with the right stuff.

I think they're a work in progress - there are playmaking elements to a number of our wingers game - Baer, Loui, Granlund (when he's on the wing).

True pmd  - that's never been an easy asset to acquire, but Stecher is a pretty good effort, Hutton has elements, and Larsen was a bargain attempt that looked alright early this year (but had that Garrison thing of struggling to hit the net).

The offense first C - I think they'll have to continue to draft  and probably will look to spend their 1st on one next summer (if possible / bpa)  although I like Zhukenov and Gaudette, but I'm not projecting anything where they're concerned (they're lottery tickets).

 

I can't agree with the points about two way hockey - I'm too committed to it to agree.

But I think you'll see a shift where there's less need to look for faster options now that the demographics or balance or however you want to characterize it are coming more into place.  I think JB has had a necessarily dual focus that has confused some people, but regardless, I think he'll be able to be more conservative with his futures moving forward.

Maybe one more retool type deal of a D for F - which imo is a good, strong negotiatiing position on the market - having a D to sell is opportune relative to shopping for one, so I'm pretty optimistic that Benning will be able to preserve his futures even moreso moving forward, and perhaps even deal a piece or two to add to the balance.

 

It sucked having injured pieces (ie Hamhuis, Vrbata) to peddle at the trade deadline and lose out on futures, but I still think they've done alright, and if they could get something for Miller this tdl - if they're not in the hunt, that could be a nice bonus (won't be holding my breath though as chips don't tend to fall in this team's lap - it's usually the hard way).

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5 minutes ago, LaBamba said:

 

There isn't much difference in CLB structure. He will come over here, have a cool name, and Etem. 

Oh LB - I don't want to flame you, but you're really whiffing on this one.

If we had Jenner, you'd be full boner within a month.

 

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1 hour ago, J.R. said:

 

Offensively, he's REALLY good at counter punching. That's the strength of his offensive game. He's also pretty good in his own end and creates offense transitioning from it. Sounds to me like WD is playing him to exactly his strengths and the twins to theirs.

 

What he needs to do is move Baer off his line.

Bo is good coming in off the rush but he's also extremely good at working the puck down low and in the corners.  He's probably our best player at taking the puck down low to the net.  He's a lot like Kopitar in that aspect who is also very good in his own end. 

 

All i'm asking for is for Bo to get more offensive opportunity.  Defending and then turning that into offensive is very energy draining.  Sedins shouldn't always get first shift on the PP.  They shouldn't  have double Horvat PP icetime.  They shouldn't always be the go to player when an offensive opportunity comes up.  Bo has proven to be just as effective.  You can say what ever you want about his "style" but it's really just common sense the understand that more offensive opportunity will equal more production.    Sedins offensive strength isn't as effective as it used to be.  They are barely outproducing Bo.  It's time to share some of that offensive load with a young player who eager for that opportunity. 

 

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We've all been pretty tough on Willie. It's not easy..because I'm sure most posters here like his hard working, trustworthy, modest image.

 

Brings to mind good ol' Roger Neilson. In the early 90's one had the sense he was sorta 'hangin in' with the game. Had bounced around quite a bit, then found a niche with exp-Florida, for his last real hurrah.

 

But his good-guy demeanor might've helped the Rags more than some recall. I think Keenan/Mess pushed him out, the yr before they beat us. But I saw Rags' players that attributed a lot learned to Roger's lessons & influence.

 

It's hard to say WHICH particular hire will push a team over the hump. Sometimes one guy(who gets mostly the grief) sets the table for the next bloke. Can't say exactly how this will go.

 

So suggesting as fans we should show more respect to our head Honcho..seems a real good guy.

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Not even a tiny fan of trading from our defense to get that fast, skilled player.  No team will want Sbisa or Larsen. Edler is a no go with the NTC.  Not likely they trade Gudbrandson.  Stecher and Tryamkin don't have enough value right now and I bloody wouldn't move either if they did.  That leaves Hutton and Tanev.  Unless we are getting a first line stud who is also YOUNG (don't think.this wasn't noticed Jumbo., you didn't mention young) then this could end up a terrible idea. 

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10 minutes ago, oldnews said:

Oh LB - I don't want to flame you, but you're really whiffing on this one.

If we had Jenner, you'd be full boner within a month.

 

 

Well I think your looking at this through a tunnel. Our blue line still needs to stretch out that box. 

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26 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

 

Thanks for this. Pretty much my feelings regarding Sutter. Another player who gets $&!# on by the analytics crowd without taking into account proper context. 

 

 

The thing I like about 'advanced stats' though is that there is potentially good information in there.

 

For example, the 'analytics' community go apeshat over deals like the Gudbranson one, making silly claims that he bleeds shots or is an average third pairing guy - but we can look and see his deployment/usage, pairings, etc and get a better idea of the context of his 'corsi'/possession numbers.

This year with less of a shutdown load and more of a complementary role to a young puck mover, both he and Hutton are on the positive side of possession, and that's with neither of them at the top of their game, and Hutton struggling a little.

 

Same with Adam Larsson - guy was seriously undervalued in the attempts to make Chiarelli look like an absolute idiot.  Larsson played some of the hardest minutes in the NHL in NJ as a very young defenseman.   High-falluting talk about "shot suppression" taken out of context is not "analytical" however, it's pretentious, reductive and counter-scientific.

 

The analytics community in general has it's head in the sand as they call old schoolers 'behind the curve' but have a very novice understanding of how to assess defensive players - and as a result, most of the two-way and primarily defensive players get seriously undervalued in the process.  Good case in point - how bad did Montreal get bent over in the Weber deal?  You'd think they got killed listening to the analytics community, but I wonder how Carey Price feels about that deal right about now?  Maybe a bit similar and opposite to what Willie Mitchell thought of dealing Gudbranson.  I'm looking forward to watching Gud and Hutton grow as a pairing - I think it's a somewhat new dynamic for both of them, but the more they gain their footing with it.....

 

Luca Sbisa again - called on of the worst defensemen in the NHL by some analytics wannabees trying to one-up Benning (the 'intellectual' arrogance that's been peddled at Benning's expense has annoyed me from day 1 - and perhaps I overcompensate a bit at times defending him and this team, but I think it's warranted given the imbalance).  When you factored zone starts, quality of competition, the depleted lineups Sbisa was stepping up in, etc into the picture, he was nowhere near what arrogant pizza delivery hackjobs were saying about him.  It'll be interesting to see how/if his improvement is acknowledged or explained away.

 

But I think there are kernels there - ie with Sutter - when you look at his shutdown role, his linemates, etc and see what he produced nevertheless, I think it was actually very bright of Benning and Linden to think there was hidden upside there - and what wasn't hidden also had good value.  It seems that Bonino was likewise under-rated when Benning acquired him - value that he cashed in on in getting the asset he needed in the next step.

 

In the end he's turned an extremely tight situation - Kesler's list of two - into the core of the Sutter and Gudbranson deals - and has Sbisa in addition.  Not bad for an unanalytical simpleton.

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12 minutes ago, LaBamba said:

 

Well I think your looking at this through a tunnel. Our blue line still needs to stretch out that box. 

If you're saying indirectly that we should have kept Etem, that's one thing I might have to agree with (because that's what I would have done at the time).

 

But I think Try and Stech will stretch our potential.

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4 minutes ago, oldnews said:

The thing I like about 'advanced stats' though is that there is potentially good information in there.

 

For example, the 'analytics' community go apeshat over deals like the Gudbranson one, making silly claims that he bleeds shots or is an average third pairing guy - but we can look and see his deployment/usage, pairings, etc and get a better idea of the context of his 'corsi'/possession numbers.

This year with less of a shutdown load and more of a complementary role to a young puck mover, both he and Hutton are on the positive side of possession, and that's with neither of them at the top of their game, and Hutton struggling a little.

 

Same with Adam Larsson - guy was seriously undervalued in the attempts to make Chiarelli look like an absolute idiot.  Larsson played some of the hardest minutes in the NHL in NJ as a very young defenseman.   High-falluting talk about "shot suppression" taken out of context is not "analytical" however, it's pretentious, reductive and counter-scientific.

 

The analytics community in general has it's head in the sand as they call old schoolers 'behind the curve' but have a very novice understanding of how to assess defensive players - and as a result, most of the two-way and primarily defensive players get seriously undervalued in the process.  Good case in point - how bad did Montreal get bent over in the Weber deal?  You'd think they got killed listening to the analytics community, but I wonder how Carey Price feels about that deal right about now?  Maybe a bit similar and opposite to what Willie Mitchell thought of dealing Gudbranson.  I'm looking forward to watching Gud and Hutton grow as a pairing - I think it's a somewhat new dynamic for both of them, but the more they gain their footing with it.....

 

Luca Sbisa again - called on of the worst defensemen in the NHL by some analytics wannabees trying to one-up Benning (the 'intellectual' arrogance that's been peddled at Benning's expense has annoyed me from day 1 - and perhaps I overcompensate a bit at times defending him and this team, but I think it's warranted given the imbalance).  When you factored zone starts, quality of competition, the depleted lineups Sbisa was stepping up in, etc into the picture, he was nowhere near what arrogant pizza delivery hackjobs were saying about him.  It'll be interesting to see how/if his improvement is acknowledged or explained away.

 

But I think there are kernels there - ie with Sutter - when you look at his shutdown role, his linemates, etc and see what he produced nevertheless, I think it was actually very bright of Benning and Linden to think there was hidden upside there - and what wasn't hidden also had good value.  It seems that Bonino was likewise under-rated when Benning acquired him - value that he cashed in on in getting the asset he needed in the next step.

 

This is a great post. It certainly seems that what you accurately describe as old school defensemen especially get beaten with the advanced stat stick by far too many people in that community. I agree that advanced stats are incredibly useful but like with everything else proper context is key. I like how you use analytics stuff to follow them to a reasonable and balanced conclusion. Far too many use them to justify a pre determined opinion.

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23 minutes ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

We've all been pretty tough on Willie. It's not easy..because I'm sure most posters here like his hard working, trustworthy, modest image.

 

Brings to mind good ol' Roger Neilson. In the early 90's one had the sense he was sorta 'hangin in' with the game. Had bounced around quite a bit, then found a niche with exp-Florida, for his last real hurrah.

 

But his good-guy demeanor might've helped the Rags more than some recall. I think Keenan/Mess pushed him out, the yr before they beat us. But I saw Rags' players that attributed a lot learned to Roger's lessons & influence.

 

It's hard to say WHICH particular hire will push a team over the hump. Sometimes one guy(who gets mostly the grief) sets the table for the next bloke. Can't say exactly how this will go.

 

So suggesting as fans we should show more respect to our head Honcho..seems a real good guy.

 

 

Honestly, the main factor as a coach is to make your players play and work hard for you... the Canucks play hard every night down and up the lineup with the exception of one space headed moron (Edler) 

 

Problem is, we're lacking skill, but we are learning to win as a team which makes me hopeful for the squad... plus Stetcher is amazing with the twins.

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1 minute ago, IbanezRG said:

 

 

Honestly, the main factor as a coach is to make your players play and work hard for you... the Canucks play hard every night down and up the lineup with the exception of one space headed moron (Edler) 

 

Problem is, we're lacking skill, but we are learning to win as a team which makes me hopeful for the squad... plus Stetcher is amazing with the twins.

 

Normally I would agree with you on your assessment if Edler but I think his lack of foot speed makes his effort look worse than it really is. I think Edler has played ok this year. The fact that he's managed to stay healthy is big because he's capable of logging a lot of minutes. So I'd say Edler gets a passing grade to date. He's limited his bone head mistakes this year. Sure, it would be nice to get a little more offense from him but I think he's played a pretty smart game. He seems to know his strengths/limitations and for the most part he's within himself. 

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2 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

 

This is a great post. It certainly seems that what you accurately describe as old school defensemen especially get beaten with the advanced stat stick by far too many people in that community. I agree that advanced stats are incredibly useful but like with everything else proper context is key. I like how you use analytics stuff to follow them to a reasonable and balanced conclusion. Far too many use them to justify a pre determined opinion.

That's how I use them when I'm talking about the Leafs:lol:.

 

Jk.  As much as I hate to admit it, Babcock generated a pretty good underlying indicator that they're on an improvement trajectory last year, even with a horrible and young lineup, when they cracked through as a decent possession team for a serious change  I'd  credit that moreso than the 'do it like the Leafs' impression that garage sales of any asset you can get a late pick for, and taking any garbage contract you can, is 'the way' to rebuild.

 

The shameless tank job, lottery win, and pandering from head office still makes me sick though.

 

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4 minutes ago, oldnews said:

If you're saying indirectly that we should have kept Etem, that's one thing I might have to agree with (because that's what I would have done at the time).

 

But I think Try and Stech will stretch our potential.

 

Its not going to help right now. We are playing a D at home structure. Seriously what is the difference between LE now and LE with the Bruins? Their D were active and they had legitimate threats up there to open up the box and allow the forwards to get infront to create traffic and grab rebounds. 

 

I am actually shocked that most of you good posters like yourself don't see how critical that is in creating offence. How often have you heard the guys say they gotta get infront of the net and get the dirty ones? They can't!!! They can't get in there because everyone collapses and allows our D to shoot their wobblers at the net. They also know they aren't going to carry it in themselves. The only guy I have seen spread apart the box this year was stecher. You'll see guys putting pressure on him more aggressively than anyone else. The Twins are starting to get more room from that, you can see it. Unless Boone Jenner plays the point or WD activates his D we aren't fixing a damn thing. Benning should know better. That is why I was and still am so happy with the Juolevi pick. 

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3 minutes ago, VIC_CITY said:

 

Normally I would agree with you on your assessment if Edler but I think his lack of foot speed makes his effort look worse than it really is. I think Edler has played ok this year. The fact that he's managed to stay healthy is big because he's capable of logging a lot of minutes. So I'd say Edler gets a passing grade to date. He's limited his bone head mistakes this year. Sure, it would be nice to get a little more offense from him but I think he's played a pretty smart game. He seems to know his strengths/limitations and for the most part he's within himself. 

 

 

Agreed, I'm just bitter over how slowly he's learning to use his new D partners strengths. But we won the game regardless.

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6 minutes ago, LaBamba said:

 

Its not going to help right now. We are playing a D at home structure. Seriously what is the difference between LE now and LE with the Bruins? Their D were active and they had legitimate threats up there to open up the box and allow the forwards to get infront to create traffic and grab rebounds. 

 

I am actually shocked that most of you good posters like yourself don't see how critical that is in creating offence. How often have you heard the guys say they gotta get infront of the net and get the dirty ones? They can't!!! They can't get in there because everyone collapses and allows our D to shoot their wobblers at the net. They also know they aren't going to carry it in themselves. The only guy I have seen spread apart the box this year was stecher. You'll see guys putting pressure on him more aggressively than anyone else. The Twins are starting to get more room from that, you can see it. Unless Boone Jenner plays the point or WD activates his D we aren't fixing a damn thing. Benning should know better. That is why I was and still am so happy with the Juolevi pick. 

Hmmm.

The difference in LE is a 6.5% shooting percentage vs 16.3% - and that's not just net traffic, it's also a large measure of hitting the glass instead of the corners of the net and will level out imo.

But you have a valid point that the team needs more net front presence in general - and a couple of our dirtier area guys aren't there - Virtanen, Honey Badger.

 

Perhaps that's an area where you might be underestimating Boone Jenner?

 

But we do activate our D  a fair amount particularly pinching to maintain possession and depending on our forwards to support if those pinches fail.

 

Not gonna lie though - I love Stecher - he's quick witted and fearless - and Tryamkin has a cannon - and they'll help in the work in progress.

 

Right there with you on Juolevi - does he ever top that young group off.  Serious optimism in the D group's future - anad ability to convert someone else into a greater need.

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27 minutes ago, PLOGUE said:

Not even a tiny fan of trading from our defense to get that fast, skilled player.  No team will want Sbisa or Larsen. Edler is a no go with the NTC.  Not likely they trade Gudbrandson.  Stecher and Tryamkin don't have enough value right now and I bloody wouldn't move either if they did.  That leaves Hutton and Tanev.  Unless we are getting a first line stud who is also YOUNG (don't think.this wasn't noticed Jumbo., you didn't mention young) then this could end up a terrible idea. 

 I think this is a terrible idea right now. To the extent that Benning has a rebuilding strategy it was to get some good young goalies in the system then build from the defence out. While I am not impressed by the implementation of the rebuild, Benning has added to the defensive pipeline. Hutton, Juolevi, Stecher, Tryamkin and Brisebois are young guys who could be very good and Gudbranson could still improve (and I hope he does because right now he is just a borderline #4 defensive defenceman).

 

But the emphasis is on could. None of those guys has shown that they are solid top 4 D-men yet. Hutton and Guddy have struggled in a top 4 role this year and have certainly not been good enough to be a second pairing on a good team. Third pairing, yes, second pairing no. Pedan seems to have fallen well down the depth chart. Stecher has looked good but we are still looking at a small sample and he has come back to earth a bit after a hot start. The long, hard NHL season will start to wear him down (as it does with all young players).

 

There is potential here. Several of those guys could become solid top pairing D-men and maybe even legitimate top-of-depth-chart guys. But there are no guarantees and it would crazy to get overconfident or complacent about the D now. Sacrificing a top prospect now for a forward who only has a year two before turning UFA (like Evander Kane) is a terrible idea. Trading Sbisa for Kane is fine (and there are rumours that this was offered and, of course, turned down). But I would not even go for Sbisa and a second round pick for Kane. He is overpaid and poison off the ice and in the "room". Why the Canucks are trying to add to their already long list of problems is beyond me. This kind of thinking is why Benning is regarded by many people in the hockey world as one of the worst GMs in the NHL.

 

 

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