wallstreetamigo Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 7 hours ago, guntrix said: This is false. Do you follow Kane's progress or do you simply just read the tabloids and conclude that "he's a write off?" So in your mind he is worth his cap hit to us? He has played a high of 65 games in the past 4 years and his highest point total in that time is 35. Not exactly screaming out "Solution to the Canucks consistency or scoring woes" to me. He is incredibly overrated in terms of actual production for what he is paid and all of the attitude and off ice issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceman64 Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 23 hours ago, S'all Good Man said: Yah I think Willie's not going anywhere for a while yet. I was really hoping to see what a different coach would do with this team, but oh well. what on earth would another coach do with this team? until next year and the year after with cap space, we have what we have, which is a few fries short of a happy meal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 7 hours ago, Mike Vanderhoek said: No, JB is right he has built a team that on paper should compete and bring in some quality youth to continue developing. Problem is they can't be a " competing team ", " rebuilding team " and " wildcard team " all at the same time. They are trying and it seems along with errors noticed by an average fan ( me lol ) at the coaching level it is simply pushing the team further away from adding top end franchise type youth at the top couple picks in the draft while not providing a winning atmosphere by missing the Playoffs. Majority of the fans don't want a wildcard team. We'd like to rebuild a team with quality players and do it right and then develop into a Playoff team. I don't care if the Canucks come in at 8th at the end of the year to get blown out by the Ducks or something. What has that proved ? other than yay! ownership while losing more and more of the fan base and fan loyalty ( costing home game ticket revenue) added Playoff revenue. The push to be a wildcard team has a certain "cutting your nose off to spite your face" vibe to it. So many fans are deserting the team and ownership/management seems to think that is happening because we are not a playoff team. I think more than anything it is happening because people are sick of being a middling team getting crappy picks and see that we need a true rebuild. People might be pissed at first if they more aggressively tore it down but I would bet excitement for the team would rebound quickly under a true rebuild. I mean, just look at the empty seats. Are they REALLY preserving any fan loyalty or excitement with this same old tired group and boring style? It worries me that Benning looks at where we are in the current standings and sees that as hope of a playoff spot. The pacific being weak doesn't actually make us any stronger Jim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 6 minutes ago, iceman64 said: what on earth would another coach do with this team? until next year and the year after with cap space, we have what we have, which is a few fries short of a happy meal... Here are some things a new coach could do. 1. Transition young and more dynamic players into more key offensive roles. Stop worrying so much about relying on the Sedins or jigging the entire lineup to get them going. Trust kids like Horvat to carry some of the offense. At least it will be exciting to watch. 2. Use Eriksson to his strengths. This goes for every player but he is a glaring example of a coach-induced funk, just like we saw with Vrbata last year. 3. Realize Dorsett (and the Dorsett of the day like Skille, etc) is not nor should ever be a second line or pp option. I mean, if you have Eriksson or Dorsett to tap for the PP or second line is there any reason any sane coach would choose Dorsett? 4. Play a more uptempo style. I know that will probably cost us some games but honestly playing a boring scared defensive style only makes our team seem even more hopelessly untalented. Release them a bit and allow some creativity. Maybe the fact that we have some good offensive defensemen now would create more opportunities. I don't know that a coaching change would impact the end result of wins/losses but it could create a more exciting experience to watch while we work towards being more talented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceman64 Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 Ok let's go over that k? 1. He's actually doing that BUT teaching defense at the same time.. Bo for instance 2. Use Eriksson to his strengths... He tried that with the twins and found it didn't work, tried him elsewhere. It would have failed with any other "sniper" anyway! The Twins don't need another sniper but someone big and fast that decent skills who can go and get the puck in the corners etc for them i.e. a speedier Lucic (something like that) 3. Realize Dorsett... Same reason as in #2 above... Add 3-4 inches to dorsett and 20-30 pounds and it may have worked but as a coach he actually tried it, and it worked with some success with Hansen but again, add weight and height to Hansen and bigger success. 4, Hello 80's and 90's with a faster,skilled, but smaller team until it usually got run over by bigger teams... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 Horvat's playing in exactly the position he should be. He could use some better fitting linemates but otherwise his usage is just fine and he's creating offense within it. Which is exactly how he should be played. He's our future Kesler (with even more offensive potential). A pain in the arse to play against, shutdown C who had stellar counter punch ability to create offense. Even then he subtracts the douche attitude and adds leadership. CDC needs to quit trying to screw that up and let WD keep fostering it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceman64 Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 31 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said: The push to be a wildcard team has a certain "cutting your nose off to spite your face" vibe to it. So many fans are deserting the team and ownership/management seems to think that is happening because we are not a playoff team. I think more than anything it is happening because people are sick of being a middling team getting crappy picks and see that we need a true rebuild. People might be pissed at first if they more aggressively tore it down but I would bet excitement for the team would rebound quickly under a true rebuild. I mean, just look at the empty seats. Are they REALLY preserving any fan loyalty or excitement with this same old tired group and boring style? It worries me that Benning looks at where we are in the current standings and sees that as hope of a playoff spot. The pacific being weak doesn't actually make us any stronger Jim. Well don't expect a change until next yr... do you throw away players like Gud, Tanev, Hutton,Bo, Hansen, Sutter,Stecher, Markstrom,Tryamkin, Eriksson? Only an idiot would do that!!!!! No you add and build to that, NOT throw it away like some of the boneheads seem to think. Will that process of adding and meshing in other players happen over night? no and it won't happen THIS year, and people can whine about as much as they like but it's not going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 1 minute ago, J.R. said: Horvat's playing in exactly the position he should be. He could use some better fitting linemates but otherwise his usage is just fine and he's creating offense within it. Which is exactly how he should be played. He's our future Kesler (with even more offensive potential). A pain in the arse to play against, shutdown C who had stellar counter punch ability to create offense. Even then he subtracts the douche attitude and adds leadership. CDC needs to quit trying to screw that up and let WD keep fostering it. Horvat NEEDs more offensive opportunity. He shouldn't be getting half the PP icetime of the sedins. He shouldn't only be getting 45% ozone starts while the twins get 70%. Saying he's best at counter punching is kind of pointless. When the majority of the time he's starting from his own zone how else is going to produce? He's 21 years old labelling him as a specific type of player is simply restricting his ceiling. We should be finding out what his real ceiling could be not labelling him and then forcing him down that path. Similarly to what happened with Sutter in his time in Carolina and Pits. He's already exceeded WD's first thoughts on him. and as I said yesterday, yes he is good coming off the rush, but he's even better down low in the offensive zone taking the puck out of the corning and driving it to the net. He should be in the 55% ozone start, he's good on the faceoff, so why not give his line an even better opportunity where they can start in the ozone with possession of the puck. Again he's 21 year. We should giving him every opportunity to grow, he's already proved so many people wrong, let him decide how good he can get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hlinkas wrister Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 8 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said: Here are some things a new coach could do. 1. Transition young and more dynamic players into more key offensive roles. Stop worrying so much about relying on the Sedins or jigging the entire lineup to get them going. Trust kids like Horvat to carry some of the offense. At least it will be exciting to watch. io 2. Use Eriksson to his strengths. This goes for every player but he is a glaring example of a coach-induced funk, just like we saw with Vrbata last year. 3. Realize Dorsett (and the Dorsett of the day like Skille, etc) is not nor should ever be a second line or pp option. I mean, if you have Eriksson or Dorsett to tap for the PP or second line is there any reason any sane coach would choose Dorsett? 4. Play a more uptempo style. I know that will probably cost us some games but honestly playing a boring scared defensive style only makes our team seem even more hopelessly untalented. Release them a bit and allow some creativity. Maybe the fact that we have some good offensive defensemen now would create more opportunities. I don't know that a coaching change would impact the end result of wins/losses but it could create a more exciting experience to watch while we work towards being more talented. I agree its not the best hockey to watch right now, but I can also see why the organization feels structured defensive hockey is the best approach for the time being. I don't think the goal(realistically) is to compete for a playoff spot, its to make the transition for when the twins retire in 17 months as painless as possible by making the youngsters like Bo etc. as complete players as possible. Run and gun and putting Horvat on the first PP would definitely make losses more interesting, and nobody in their right minds would argue against your third point, but as Babcock said at the start of their rebuild, "there's pain coming" and unfortunately some of that pain is ours in having to watch dour, boring hockey while the next generation stay competitive and learn how to play on both sides of the puck. In the meantime, I take heart in the fact players like Bo or Baer aren't going to lose their offensive talents (you either have them or you don't) and when they transition to being the leaders in 18-19 they will have plenty of opportunity to realize their goal scoring potential. I'm not trying to be an apologist for WD or management, just trying to seek some solace in taking the long view I guess..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 17 minutes ago, iceman64 said: Ok let's go over that k? 1. He's actually doing that BUT teaching defense at the same time.. Bo for instance 2. Use Eriksson to his strengths... He tried that with the twins and found it didn't work, tried him elsewhere. It would have failed with any other "sniper" anyway! The Twins don't need another sniper but someone big and fast that decent skills who can go and get the puck in the corners etc for them i.e. a speedier Lucic (something like that) 3. Realize Dorsett... Same reason as in #2 above... Add 3-4 inches to dorsett and 20-30 pounds and it may have worked but as a coach he actually tried it, and it worked with some success with Hansen but again, add weight and height to Hansen and bigger success. 4, Hello 80's and 90's with a faster,skilled, but smaller team until it usually got run over by bigger teams... He seemingly only worries about keeping the Sedins going (which is proving to be harder and harder to consistently do as they age). The rest of the lineup seems like largely an afterthought. Horvat at is not being used properly. He is not only a defensive center and unfortunately he is the best option we have to be our next #1 center. He generates more relative offense with less advantageous opportunity than the Sedins. It stands to reason if Desjardins stops thinking short term, uses Sutter as his defensive shutdown center, and gives Bo more offensive opportunity, he could produce even more. Our style is incredibly boring to watch and is largely catered around the Sedins style. A handful of games with the Sedins isn't trying it. Desjardins gave up on Eriksson a half a dozen games into a 6 year contract when it didn't immediately work. Short term thinking there. What is the point of your what-if on Dorsett there? He isn't a top 6 player at any size so what's the point of defending that coaching idiocy by saying if only he was bigger? The reality is our team has some young players who could be exciting to watch while we are not doing well. i would rather we get a coach who is not too scared to try something new and exciting with the lineup not keep trying to force the same middling vets into top roles at the expense of better and in many cases younger players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 11 minutes ago, iceman64 said: Well don't expect a change until next yr... do you throw away players like Gud, Tanev, Hutton,Bo, Hansen, Sutter,Stecher, Markstrom,Tryamkin, Eriksson? Only an idiot would do that!!!!! No you add and build to that, NOT throw it away like some of the boneheads seem to think. Will that process of adding and meshing in other players happen over night? no and it won't happen THIS year, and people can whine about as much as they like but it's not going to happen. When did I say anything even close to what you are saying??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 5 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Horvat NEEDs more offensive opportunity. He shouldn't be getting half the PP icetime of the sedins. He shouldn't only be getting 45% ozone starts while the twins get 70%. Saying he's best at counter punching is kind of pointless. When the majority of the time he's starting from his own zone how else is going to produce? He's 21 years old labelling him as a specific type of player is simply restricting his ceiling. We should be finding out what his real ceiling could be not labelling him and then forcing him down that path. Similarly to what happened with Sutter in his time in Carolina and Pits. He's already exceeded WD's first thoughts on him. and as I said yesterday, yes he is good coming off the rush, but he's even better down low in the offensive zone taking the puck out of the corning and driving it to the net. He should be in the 55% ozone start, he's good on the faceoff, so why not give his line an even better opportunity where they can start in the ozone with possession of the puck. Again he's 21 year. We should giving him every opportunity to grow, he's already proved so many people wrong, let him decide how good he can get. See hlinkas post below yours. You're right, he's only 21 and has plenty of time still to find his own ceiling. Completely disagree he should be getting 50+% ozone starts. A bit more pp time I could see but that's tough when most of the time the twins have possession in the ozone for over half the PP. You want them to just throw the puck back to Markstrom so they can change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 The problem though is having possession in the offensive zone on the PP doesn't do any good if you overpass trying to set up the perfect play or cycle down the clock. There is a reason our PP sucks and part of it is on the Sedins style of play. When it works to create an actual scoring opportunity it's great. Unfortunately a lot of the time that is just wasted possession time. Bo plays with urgency which our PP could definitely use more of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 43 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said: I think more than anything it is happening because people are sick of being a middling team getting crappy picks Meh. Even our lower picks - ie. Boeser - I'm pretty damn happy with. Juolevi - check. Virtanen - patience grasshoppers. McCann (2 x 1sts that year) converted into Gudbranson - pretty happy with that. Demko in the 2nd round. Try in the 3rd. What's to complain about? Lockwood, Zhukenov, etc, etc. I think people protest too much - the intentional race for draft position is for losers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainLinden16 Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 11 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Horvat NEEDs more offensive opportunity. He shouldn't be getting half the PP icetime of the sedins. He shouldn't only be getting 45% ozone starts while the twins get 70%. Saying he's best at counter punching is kind of pointless. When the majority of the time he's starting from his own zone how else is going to produce? He's 21 years old labelling him as a specific type of player is simply restricting his ceiling. We should be finding out what his real ceiling could be not labelling him and then forcing him down that path. Similarly to what happened with Sutter in his time in Carolina and Pits. He's already exceeded WD's first thoughts on him. and as I said yesterday, yes he is good coming off the rush, but he's even better down low in the offensive zone taking the puck out of the corning and driving it to the net. He should be in the 55% ozone start, he's good on the faceoff, so why not give his line an even better opportunity where they can start in the ozone with possession of the puck. Again he's 21 year. We should giving him every opportunity to grow, he's already proved so many people wrong, let him decide how good he can get. You do have to admit that Bo plays with Horse blinders on in the offensive zone. The guy doesn't pass much. I have seen him take mason raymond esque laps in the offensive zone. I am not sure that you can change much of that. If you want him to be a better offensive zone player than he should be the linmate for the Sedins. He plays almost exactly like Kelser. Kesler was awesome with the Sedins. i for one would love to see that. Burrows and Hansen are three times the players they were after playing with the Sedins. I have seen Hansen saucer passing, and burrows and Hansen play such a smart positional game in the offensive zone. That to me is true developement. You play your highest potential player with your best players. You learn from plays on the ice in game way more than you do from practice. The only point of transitioning or retooling is if we partner our veterans with our young players so they can learn and get better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceman64 Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 11 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said: When did I say anything even close to what you are saying??? what i meant was only a typical idiot who knows next to nothing about hockey says "throw it all away", i didn't mean you exactly... You missed my point of having a "player" no matter who that may be with the Twins that is BIG, fast, and tough! who can go get the puck for them... no Hansen and Dorsett are not that player but the closest-ish we had/have. Carter was the closest we ever had to it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainLinden16 Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 4 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said: The problem though is having possession in the offensive zone on the PP doesn't do any good if you overpass trying to set up the perfect play or cycle down the clock. There is a reason our PP sucks and part of it is on the Sedins style of play. When it works to create an actual scoring opportunity it's great. Unfortunately a lot of the time that is just wasted possession time. Bo plays with urgency which our PP could definitely use more of. Bo looses the puck a lot in tight situations which is what a power play is. We need shooters on the power play more than anything. Stecher is a great start, but we need a trigger man on the left side too. Rodin will dramatically improve the power play once healthy and if they play him on the first unit. The pass is there all the time when edler is sneaking down from the point, but he whiffs so often that the Sedins don't really pass it to him in those situations anymore. Rodin would bury those chances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 9 minutes ago, J.R. said: See hlinkas post below yours. You're right, he's only 21 and has plenty of time still to find his own ceiling. Completely disagree he should be getting 50+% ozone starts. A bit more pp time I could see but that's tough when most of the time the twins have possession in the ozone for over half the PP. You want them to just throw the puck back to Markstrom so they can change? No, personally i don't want the sedin to get 1st shift every power play. I'd like to see Bo's line get first shift at least 50% of the time. The sedins haven't been that effective on the PP for a few years now, it's literally play keep away along the boards, followed by a low percentage shot. The waste 1:30 generating almost zero scoring chances. Since WD has taking over canucks have a 10.5% PP and it's 4th worst in the league over those 3 years (including this year). Sedins are a the biggest part of that not being successful. Yet we don't change anything, we just keep throwing out the same strategy hoping that one day is clicks again. It's time to start the transition and Bo is the transition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 1 hour ago, iceman64 said: what on earth would another coach do with this team? until next year and the year after with cap space, we have what we have, which is a few fries short of a happy meal... Different deployment. Twins and Loui together full time, playing kids vs. Skille, trying Hutton with Tanev, things like that. Would it be "the key". Won't know when and if its tried. Personally I think Loui is a heck of a lot better than people are claiming on these boards, and his use has been really bad. He is not a 3rd liner. Loui and Sutter will anchor kids like Bo and Boeser until those guys are in their mid to late 20s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaBamba Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 25 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Horvat NEEDs more offensive opportunity. He shouldn't be getting half the PP icetime of the sedins. He shouldn't only be getting 45% ozone starts while the twins get 70%. Saying he's best at counter punching is kind of pointless. When the majority of the time he's starting from his own zone how else is going to produce? He's 21 years old labelling him as a specific type of player is simply restricting his ceiling. We should be finding out what his real ceiling could be not labelling him and then forcing him down that path. Similarly to what happened with Sutter in his time in Carolina and Pits. He's already exceeded WD's first thoughts on him. and as I said yesterday, yes he is good coming off the rush, but he's even better down low in the offensive zone taking the puck out of the corning and driving it to the net. He should be in the 55% ozone start, he's good on the faceoff, so why not give his line an even better opportunity where they can start in the ozone with possession of the puck. Again he's 21 year. We should giving him every opportunity to grow, he's already proved so many people wrong, let him decide how good he can get. If Horvat doesn't take the Defensive draws then who will? I get what you are saying but we just don't have the depth to pull it off. We don't have that Richardson or Malhotra to take the load in the D-Zone. I like the Sedin's taking all the O draws. That's how they thrived in the past under AV. Bo will get his chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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