gameburn2 Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, Crabcakes said: The Canucks are in the midst of a very difficult rebuild because they had very few players in their prime to ease the transition. This is the pickle that Gillis left us in after the cup run. He had gone all in, trading away draft picks and essentially ignoring the long term future. Benning had to: Draft and develop a new core Add players in the middle age group to ease the transition Trade away one of his best core players who would only go to 1 team Add the odd veteran players to fill a leadership role as other veterans became less effective and moved along or retired There are multiple tasks here that Benning had to do at the same time which I think confuses some people and makes it look like he is working at cross purposes. You have to understand that he needs to have a complete and operational team every year (or close to it), otherwise the Canucks would be unwatchable and nobody would pay to go see them. I think that Benning has done a good job because he has been able to accomplish the above list. The reason why they aren't getting the results that everybody wants is that they still don't have enough effective players in their prime. That is accurate and fair. I have argued the same. But it is a strangely unsatisfying argument: somehow the situation here in Vancouver seems contradictory and fracturing. Why sign Eriksson forever and a day, why not move Edler and Tanev, why not find a way to get a pick or two out of FAs and Hamhuis in particular. Why don't we have a Marner, a Matthews or even a Larkin who is doing what "Team North America" is doing every day in today's NHL. There no longer is a "prime" for players: it's flat now: 20 to 27; McD and Matthews and Laine and apparently Tkachuk are good at 19 to 21. Bad news for all of us old timers: players no longer need to "mature" -- they have it or they don't by 20. Training and vetting is so good now, you kind of get what you're going to get pretty fast now. Just a theory, but there is growing evidence for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mustapha Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 49 minutes ago, stuman491 said: If you compare career totals Jovo cop's point totals were better than Giordano. He was also more of a physical defender. Since Norris trophies tend to be awarded strictly on offensive production I'm not sure how much of a measure they are in terms of a players overall impact on a team. Karlsson and Subban are good examples. Great players. Fantastic offensive stats. As Montreal is learning this season a defender with a better all around game has a much larger impact on the club. Weber has never won a Norris trophy either. Winning a Norris these days only means you are an elite offensive defenseman. So if your argument is Giordano is better because he finished higher in Norris votes, all that means is he had a good offensive year. Cancuks missed the playoffs twice with Jovo in their lineup. Flames are batting 50% with Giordano in theirs. Yes I'm a homer and would sill much rather have Jovo in his prime. Giordano is good, but Weber, Keith and Doughty are better than him every single year AINEC. They can give out Norris trophies to guys like Karlsson and Subban, but those guys won't get you deep or win a championship, they have defensive flaws in their game that make them liabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, gameburn2 said: That is accurate and fair. I have argued the same. But it is a strangely unsatisfying argument: somehow the situation here in Vancouver seems contradictory and fracturing. Why sign Eriksson forever and a day, why not move Edler and Tanev, why not find a way to get a pick or two out of FAs and Hamhuis in particular. Why don't we have a Marner, a Matthews or even a Larkin who is doing what "Team North America" is doing every day in today's NHL. There no longer is a "prime" for players: it's flat now: 20 to 27; McD and Matthews and Laine and apparently Tkachuk are good at 19 to 21. Bad news for all of us old timers: players no longer need to "mature" -- they have it or they don't by 20. Training and vetting is so good now, you kind of get what you're going to get pretty fast now. Just a theory, but there is growing evidence for it. @LaBamba is posting very similar stuff. We are trying to add on to a house that is just not worth adding on to. We really should tear it right back to the foundation, and rebuild. This patchwork effort will just go on and on and on. Our management's plan is seriously flawed, as evidenced by our lack of elite prospects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riffraff Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 7 minutes ago, gameburn2 said: That is accurate and fair. I have argued the same. But it is a strangely unsatisfying argument: somehow the situation here in Vancouver seems contradictory and fracturing. Why sign Eriksson forever and a day, why not move Edler and Tanev, why not find a way to get a pick or two out of FAs and Hamhuis in particular. Why don't we have a Marner, a Matthews or even a Larkin who is doing what "Team North America" is doing every day in today's NHL. There no longer is a "prime" for players: it's flat now: 20 to 27; McD and Matthews and Laine and apparently Tkachuk are good at 19 to 21. Bad news for all of us old timers: players no longer need to "mature" -- they have it or they don't by 20. Training and vetting is so good now, you kind of get what you're going to get pretty fast now. Just a theory, but there is growing evidence for it. Interesting point and i agree that the maturing time is shrinking...I think in another 3-5 seasons it will be exactly this. i was actually talking to a retired NHLer today about this. He said much of it has to do with the physical training that is happening while kids are In there teens that is drastically different to even 5-10 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaBamba Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 9 minutes ago, Alflives said: Go to cupboard...open door...get vodka...open bottle...DRINK...pain goes away. youre welcome;) I drink room temperature Molson Canadian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaBamba Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 5 minutes ago, Alflives said: @LaBamba is posting very similar stuff. We are trying to add on to a house that is just not worth adding on to. We really should tear it right back to the foundation, and rebuild. This patchwork effort will just go on and on and on. Our management's plan is seriously flawed, as evidenced by our lack of elite prospects. I actually don't think we need to tear anything down. We suck plenty enough with our veterans. I just want this management to focus on player development and build a team for 5 years from now. Put our youth on a stacked farm team and suck it up for 3 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, LaBamba said: I drink room temperature Molson Canadian. You are a different kind of evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete M Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 On 21/11/2016 at 8:34 PM, Odd. said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 28 minutes ago, LaBamba said: This post was so bad that I actually thought it was @J.R. until I saw edited by oldnews. You've hit such a void of reason that I thought @Noheart had been resurrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 16 minutes ago, LaBamba said: I drink room temperature Molson Canadian. We're here for you LB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaBamba Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 16 minutes ago, oldnews said: You've hit such a void of reason that I thought @Noheart had been resurrected. I should switch my name back to NoHeart. LaBamba doesn't even makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 54 minutes ago, riffraff said: Ye know when you have that beer buzz and you need that first chuckle get you going? thanks. Oldie was wearing a cardigan when he wrote it too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6string Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 2 hours ago, gameburn2 said: Not a Toronto fan here. Just saying that they look pretty good right now, and part of the reason for that is dumping a LOT of players in exchange for 1st and 2nd round picks. If you have enough picks and a decent scouting dept... and patience, you have a chance. I know this sound like nitpicking, but Toronto's rebuild has to be attached to the Kessel deal and Phaneuf, i.e., the new Mgt: the high-paid coach who is going to be there umpteen years, the SEASONED G.M. etc.: all of of which has zilch to do with Pat Quinn. We are talking about a 3-yr rebuild here, I think (2012-2013?). They have accomplished a lot in 3 years. I wish we had had that kind of leadership here. I love Linden, Benning is great in interviews, WD is likable enough. But, be honest, wouldn't you rather have Team Canada's coach, a GM with a record that's good, and a President like Shanahan? (Well, Linden is not much worse than Shanahan, but you see my point.) When Benning couldn't trade Hammer for anything close to what Toronto has gotten for its various fading assets (all of whose names escape, unlike their draft picks), and then had to let him walk for nothing this summer? That kind of says what the difference is. This will happen with Edler, probably Hansen and the Sedins as well. Tanev we will be able to trade... but that's probably about it. But again you hand pick the all the right moves of the last couple of years but want to ignore all of the dark years ( Coach Wilson, Gm Burke and a plethora of great young stars ) it took the TML franchise to get to where they are now. My point is both Toronto and Edmonton were perpetual fails compare to San Jose or Tampa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riffraff Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 13 minutes ago, J.R. said: Oldie was wearing a cardigan when he wrote it too If there is anyone with a cardigan closet, it's oldie. Ha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 11 minutes ago, J.R. said: Oldie was wearing a cardigan when he wrote it too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, riffraff said: If there is anyone with a cardigan closet, it's oldie. Ha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NHTyrany Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 22 hours ago, oldnews said: You can't win the lottery by losing a couple more games. Sorry, but that's not a 'plan' - it's a pipe dream. We lost the lottery. It's that simple. But last place is something like a 25% chance at #1 and a guaranteed top 3--or something like that. Yes, we lost a bit by dropping two spots, but the odds would have been far better in last spot. Oh well, I still support the team and I will eventually get over it. Time to turn the page I guess.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gameburn2 Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 1 hour ago, riffraff said: Do you really need to be told how good he is for our team and how valuable, in general, a steady dman with his numbers at his age is to any team? our much improved D is a result of the support crew that JB has surrounded tanev with, not in spite of him.. im not necessarily paying to watch tanev. But he helps this team win, well, remain in games I should say. How many games has Tanev missed this season? Are we really worse when he's not in the lineup? Stech and Tryamkin only got to play because Tanev was out (and Larsen looks meh.) I don't think we miss him, I'd rather see either of Tryamkin or Stecher. Both are more exciting players, and I don't see them contributing any less than Tanev. How many points has he gotten? How much of a difference does he really make? Same btw with Edler. Tanev is okay, but on a rebuild he's that steady guy who doesn't score much that we don't really need. (A young Hamhuis.) Pittsburgh could use him, Montreal could use him; NY even more, because they need 3rd D to hold leads/be available for more minutes if a bigger gun goes down. But as Babcock said of Phaneuf as we was going out the door, "Dion is ready to win now, and we aren't." So he goes. If you aren't going to be winning you should be building. I think Gudbranson is just young enough that he can be part of the long-term rebuild -- and he plays a more physical game than T. Edler definitely not part of the long-term team, Tanev could but it's borderline, besides, "he's ready to win now and we aren't." So he should go. Same with Hansen. Before their stock value drops any further. Probably -- and it's difficult to say this -- the Sedins should have been moved too: probably by Feb/March in the year after the Torts debacle. If we didn't have Tryamkin, Stecher and Hutton showing signs of being the real deal, then it would be harder to trade Tanev. But we do, and Juolevi will be available by next Fall at the latest. And Gudbranson is a recent grab, so he's here for a while too. (That's 5 D right there, 3 of them likely to be core players, which is what Edler used to be.) TDL: good bye Tanev and Hansen, maybe even Edler although we might have to eat some of his salary. Trading T and E at last year's TDL would have been a bit riskier, because we didn't know that Stecher and Tryamkin would work out, nor did we have Gudbranson yet. Everything has changed; now we can make the trades that are needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davathor Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 12 minutes ago, gameburn2 said: How many games has Tanev missed this season? Are we really worse when he's not in the lineup? Stech and Tryamkin only got to play because Tanev was out (and Larsen looks meh.) I don't think we miss him, I'd rather see either of Tryamkin or Stecher. Both are more exciting players, and I don't see them contributing any less than Tanev. How many points has he gotten? How much of a difference does he really make? Same btw with Edler. Tanev is okay, but on a rebuild he's that steady guy who doesn't score much that we don't really need. (A young Hamhuis.) Pittsburgh could use him, Montreal could use him; NY even more, because they need 3rd D to hold leads/be available for more minutes if a bigger gun goes down. But as Babcock said of Phaneuf as we was going out the door, "Dion is ready to win now, and we aren't." So he goes. If you aren't going to be winning you should be building. I think Gudbranson is just young enough that he can be part of the long-term rebuild -- and he plays a more physical game than T. Edler definitely not part of the long-term team, Tanev could but it's borderline, besides, "he's ready to win now and we aren't." So he should go. Same with Hansen. Before their stock value drops any further. Probably -- and it's difficult to say this -- the Sedins should have been moved too: probably by Feb/March in the year after the Torts debacle. If we didn't have Tryamkin, Stecher and Hutton showing signs of being the real deal, then it would be harder to trade Tanev. But we do, and Juolevi will be available by next Fall at the latest. And Gudbranson is a recent grab, so he's here for a while too. (That's 5 D right there, 3 of them likely to be core players, which is what Edler used to be.) TDL: good bye Tanev and Hansen, maybe even Edler although we might have to eat some of his salary. Trading T and E at last year's TDL would have been a bit riskier, because we didn't know that Stecher and Tryamkin would work out, nor did we have Gudbranson yet. Everything has changed; now we can make the trades that are needed. And who's going to pay a premium for a few of our older players? Don't underestimate the expansion's effect on this season and our future. The time to trade vets is over, and we're likely SOL until the seasons over. Expect : -middle of non playoff pack, 8th overall type finish -underwhelming TDL -same $&!# we should all be used to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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