Is Baertschi a product of Bo Horvat?

[kloubek]

Hey, if it works, it works.  I think Green Goblin is right about Bertuzzi creating space for Naslund, or a prior comment about Burrows with the twins.

 

With all this said, I will point out (as I have several times on CDC) that Baertschi is doing no better points-wise than he has his entire career.  He has always been around a point-every-other-game player, and his current stats appear to follow the trend.  He does appear stronger on the puck than he has in the past, I'll give him that - but I wouldn't say he is blowing us away.... with or without Horvat.  I'd really like to see SOME level of point progression; *especially* if he stays on a line with Horvat.  While it seemed low to me at first, even 38 points (which he is on pace for), that is about average for 2nd line production in today's NHL.

 

So is Baertschi a 2nd line player?  I suppose he is already.  The problem that I see is that so far, he has not proven he will be anything other than an average 2nd liner, and that is being put on a line with a guy as cerebral as Horvat.  I find that concerning to some degree. Since we are lacking 1st line talent after the Sedins leave (and even they aren't quite up to snuff in that regard so far this season), we need better than average on the 2nd line to compensate if we want to win more games than we lose.  We are already set in goal and defense, so we need our young guys to step up and progress with their point production.  With Virtanen not exactly meeting expectations so far, and with Boeser a couple of years away from assuming a top six role (if he does at all) we have limited players available to fill these roles.  For this reason, I really hope Baertschi finds a way to step it up.

[nuck7635]

2 hours ago, kloubek said:

Hey, if it works, it works.  I think Green Goblin is right about Bertuzzi creating space for Naslund, or a prior comment about Burrows with the twins.

 

With all this said, I will point out (as I have several times on CDC) that Baertschi is doing no better points-wise than he has his entire career.  He has always been around a point-every-other-game player, and his current stats appear to follow the trend.  He does appear stronger on the puck than he has in the past, I'll give him that - but I wouldn't say he is blowing us away.... with or without Horvat.  I'd really like to see SOME level of point progression; *especially* if he stays on a line with Horvat.  While it seemed low to me at first, even 38 points (which he is on pace for), that is about average for 2nd line production in today's NHL.

 

So is Baertschi a 2nd line player?  I suppose he is already.  The problem that I see is that so far, he has not proven he will be anything other than an average 2nd liner, and that is being put on a line with a guy as cerebral as Horvat.  I find that concerning to some degree. Since we are lacking 1st line talent after the Sedins leave (and even they aren't quite up to snuff in that regard so far this season), we need better than average on the 2nd line to compensate if we want to win more games than we lose.  We are already set in goal and defense, so we need our young guys to step up and progress with their point production.  With Virtanen not exactly meeting expectations so far, and with Boeser a couple of years away from assuming a top six role (if he does at all) we have limited players available to fill these roles.  For this reason, I really hope Baertschi finds a way to step it up.

 

Again, I think the problem is people are looking at Baertschi's age and when he was drafted. His development was clearly wrecked by Calgary and he's said many times himself, playing for Green in Utica helped make hockey fun for him again and playing his first full year in the NHL last year was a big milestone for him. I don't think anybody expected Horvat to be where he's at right now this quickly and as a result he's all of a sudden become the measuring stick for prospect development on this team.

 

Like Linden said earlier, everybody matures at different levels. Sven's played around 150 NHL games but just remember, a lot of the games he played in Calgary he was stapled to the bench. I still think he'll have a strong second half and get 35–40 points this year which is a reasonable expectation. His pain points right now are acceleration and conditioning. If he can really hammer on those next summer, we'll see the real Sven next season. Just be patient people!

[kloubek]

18 minutes ago, nuck7635 said:

Like Linden said earlier, everybody matures at different levels. Sven's played around 150 NHL games but just remember, a lot of the games he played in Calgary he was stapled to the bench. I still think he'll have a strong second half and get 35–40 points this year which is a reasonable expectation. His pain points right now are acceleration and conditioning. If he can really hammer on those next summer, we'll see the real Sven next season. Just be patient people!

 

I can appreciate this position, but he's been in our system now for over 20 months.  That's almost two years.  Is that not enough to see at least a glimmer of improvement?

[Mattrek]

5 points in his last 3 games. The Baer has found his mojo. The more time that passes the better Benning looks trading a 2nd round pick for him. 

[Nuxfanabroad]

Products of Bo Horvat:

BC's GDP

World Peace

Spiritual enlightenment

Exploding fertility rates (debatable if this is helpful)

Knowledge

 

Best comparison might be what the Beatles did for pop/rock. Soon Bo will meditate in India with his groupies...

[Honky Cat]

1 hour ago, kloubek said:

 

I can appreciate this position, but he's been in our system now for over 20 months.  That's almost two years.  Is that not enough to see at least a glimmer of improvement?

There's a huge improvement in his play early this year, compared to last year.....Last year,he was completely peripheral at the beginning,and finally got it later in the year...This year,the try has definitely been there,but the puck luck has not.

 

He's a very gifted hockey player..not your average plug (13th overall in 2011)...There's countless threads from last year claiming he's a bust,or a waste of a 2nd etc...Most of those posters are going to look pretty foolish..IMO

[kloubek]

1 minute ago, Honky Cat said:

There's a huge improvement in his play early this year, compared to last year.....Last year,he was completely peripheral at the beginning,and finally got it later in the year...This year,the try has definitely been there,but the puck luck has not.

I agree that he appears much more engaged and stronger on the puck. But the proof is in the numbers, and I've seen no improvement in that regard.

We'll see.  He's still young and has room to improve.

[6YPE]

2 hours ago, kloubek said:

 

I can appreciate this position, but he's been in our system now for over 20 months.  That's almost two years.  Is that not enough to see at least a glimmer of improvement?

 

His puck pursuit is relentless, he does everything he can to get the puck, he has skill holding onto the puck in the corner and making plays. Daniel Sedin speaking of Sven “I look more at Sven’s game because I’m a winger myself. I see that (drive) in him. He’s a guy I can see really take off this year. To me, Sven is a more skilled player than I am. So I watch him, too. I might not ask him about it, but I’m watching him to see how he does things. He has all the tools to be a great player.”  he's doing very well on the defensive side of the game so I disagree with the statement, he has made improvement in areas other than point production, which is what the coaching staff wanted first and foremost. Now lets see if he can get better on the "O" side, I'd say there's been much more than a "glimmer" of improvement. 

 

Link to quote http://vancouversun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/iain-macintyre-canucks-need-horvat-baertschi-to-bring-it-on-offence-support-the-sedins

 

[kloubek]

That's actually a really nice quote by Sedin.

 

Yet, I don't need to remind anyone that Cody Hodgson had lots of talent too, but couldn't put it together.  At least I agree that we've seen improvement in other aspects of Baertschi's game.

[nuck7635]

3 hours ago, kloubek said:

That's actually a really nice quote by Sedin.

 

Yet, I don't need to remind anyone that Cody Hodgson had lots of talent too, but couldn't put it together.  At least I agree that we've seen improvement in other aspects of Baertschi's game.

 

Talent becomes moot without the effort. Cody's biggest knocks were skating like he had cement in his skates, his awful defensive play, and his dad. He was also wildly inconsistent and lazy. While consistency's been considered a knock for Sven, re-watch his shifts this year. The effort is there. And remember, it wasn't just Sven that wasn't scoring earlier in the year, nobody was scoring.

 

And in regards to your comment on proof being in the numbers, okay, let's play that game.

He's tied for 5th in points with Eriksson so points per dollar wise, great value right?

He's played 2 less games than the Sedins, Horvat, Sutter and Eriksson

He's a -1, so much less of a defensive liability than Sutter who's -11 and the Sedins who are -6 and -7 right?

He's 1st on the team with 2 GWG

He's tied for 3rd on the team for assists with Sutter who's playing with the Sedins and PP1.

 

So what these numbers tell me, is that Sven's actually made pretty damn good improvement over last year and should be on track to meet his expectations for this season.

 

Now what numbers were you looking at?

[kloubek]

2 hours ago, nuck7635 said:

 

Talent becomes moot without the effort. Cody's biggest knocks were skating like he had cement in his skates, his awful defensive play, and his dad. He was also wildly inconsistent and lazy. While consistency's been considered a knock for Sven, re-watch his shifts this year. The effort is there. And remember, it wasn't just Sven that wasn't scoring earlier in the year, nobody was scoring.

 

And in regards to your comment on proof being in the numbers, okay, let's play that game..

Now what numbers were you looking at?

 

You put together a tidy email.  Little smug in the end there, but tidy.  Thanks for your numbers.

 

Regrettably, you don't address anything I actually said.  You prefer to cherry pick stats (which aren't generally that difficult for him obtain, given team averages) to back up your side that isn't even the opposite side of my own.  Sven is a fine player.  I even said he was a legit 2nd liner.  An average 2nd liner, but a 2nd liner regardless.

 

I also never said effort wasn't required, nor that Sven didn't possess it.  Or that he wasn't good value.  In addition, you completely ignored my main point, which was merely that, albeit improved, he has yet to find his stride in scoring, and there is no sign so far that he ever will.  What I DID state is that in order for us to excel, players like him have to have improve their scoring as opposed to merely playing a solid, well-rounded game.  You did state yourself that earlier in the season, nobody was scoring.  What better remedy than to have a scoring forward?  And the numbers I was talking about.... oh right... POINTS.  (And his years of unimproving totals)

I'd be happy to converse with you regarding your opinion if you actually care to talk about the same topic.

[6YPE]

16 hours ago, kloubek said:

 

You put together a tidy email.  Little smug in the end there, but tidy.  Thanks for your numbers.

 

Regrettably, you don't address anything I actually said.  You prefer to cherry pick stats (which aren't generally that difficult for him obtain, given team averages) to back up your side that isn't even the opposite side of my own.  Sven is a fine player.  I even said he was a legit 2nd liner.  An average 2nd liner, but a 2nd liner regardless.

 

I also never said effort wasn't required, nor that Sven didn't possess it.  Or that he wasn't good value.  In addition, you completely ignored my main point, which was merely that, albeit improved, he has yet to find his stride in scoring, and there is no sign so far that he ever will.  What I DID state is that in order for us to excel, players like him have to have improve their scoring as opposed to merely playing a solid, well-rounded game.  You did state yourself that earlier in the season, nobody was scoring.  What better remedy than to have a scoring forward?  And the numbers I was talking about.... oh right... POINTS.  (And his years of unimproving totals)

I'd be happy to converse with you regarding your opinion if you actually care to talk about the same topic.

 

Actually, you said " I can appreciate this position, but he's been in our system now for over 20 months.  That's almost two years.  Is that not enough to see at least a glimmer of improvement? "

 

Its not the end of the season yet so comparing at this point is useless, its only use is to continue a pointless argument. He has improved as I stated in many ways, but by your reasoning he hasn't. To simply say, and again I quote "he's been in our system now for over 20 months.  That's almost two years.  Is that not enough to see at least a glimmer of improvement? "", thats a pretty general statement. 

 

So has he improved or has he not? You're flip flopping. 

[kloubek]

13 minutes ago, 6YPE said:

 

Actually, you said " I can appreciate this position, but he's been in our system now for over 20 months.  That's almost two years.  Is that not enough to see at least a glimmer of improvement? "

 

Its not the end of the season yet so comparing at this point is useless, its only use is to continue a pointless argument. He has improved as I stated in many ways, but by your reasoning he hasn't. To simply say, and again I quote "he's been in our system now for over 20 months.  That's almost two years.  Is that not enough to see at least a glimmer of improvement? "", thats a pretty general statement. 

 

So has he improved or has he not? You're flip flopping. 

 

That would be incorrect.  It wasn't a general statement at all if you actually chose to follow the conversation.

That particular quote came from my response to Nuck7635, where he talked about Sven's production... and which was in itself a response to MY post about production.  That was the conversation at the time.  Then you misinterpreted what was said and thus went off on your own little tangent which including things like Baertschi's contract value and defensive ability - which I don't believe were mentioned by either of us, and I certainly never denied.

Of course, I could have prefixed every sentence with "Baertschi's point totals" so individuals with short attention spans could follow, but that would make for difficult reading, and I refuse to cater to the lowest common denominator.  So please, feel free to carry on discussing your points which have nothing to do with what I'm saying, but I won't be coming back into this thread to respond; I already get my fill of false premise debates with my wife.

Good day sir.