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Rebuilding from the net out: The Current State of the Franchise


Bert Diesel

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58 minutes ago, Jam126 said:

Should we draft Liljegren if we get 2nd OA? Because if we do I don't think we even need a #1C anymore. Though we need more forwards who are creative with the puck and make an impact.

this right here.

 

what stands out is the lack of creativity in our fwd ranks. we need skilled guys that can make plays in tight spaces, hang on to the puck and be confident enough to try and make plays. theres really none of that type of skill in our organizational depth.

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15 minutes ago, LaBamba said:

 

Where would you have the better odds? 

 

Like I have said over and over and over again. I don't care how we do this.

 

I just don't make up best case scenarios in my head to make myself feel better.  

 

You would technically have better odds the higher you pick. But that doesn't mean with a higher pick you will always pick the better player.  But we've been over this a million times in this forum, especially with the tankers from last year. 

 

To be honest I don't care how we do it either. At some point the roster has to be turned over. I like what Bennng has done so far. Is he perfect? No. Are we gonna be cup contenders in 5 years because of what Benning has done?  Can't say right now. 

 

What I do think has to happen however is that we need to somehow find a true #1 centre. Or at the very least a #1A to complement BO. That in my opinion should be our #1 priority moving forward. 

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How could we not be happy with our "D"? We had a hard look at it for a few years and now it has some promise that im sure other GMs are envious of. We line match our D, but not our forwards...

 

Yes Willie Dejardins is old , yes he shakes like he is riding a hardtail on a gravel road. Yes he blends his dinner.

But, why doesnt willie line match our forwards?

Hes learning, just isnt there yet.

We have a first time silver fox nhl coach just learning the ropes. 

Either that or hes an idiot. I prefer to think of the previous being true.

 

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2 hours ago, LaBamba said:

 

I never say we need to tank. I just can't stand people who are so narrow minded that they'll actually make an argument with people that picking 1st overall doesn't matter. 

Erik Johnson

Gord Kluzak

Doug Wickenheiser

Greg Joly

A. Daigle

Brian Lawton

R. Dipietro

Patrik Stefan

N. Yakopov

Ekblad

MacKinnon

RNH

Taylor Hall

Tavares

R. Nash

Kovalchuk

C. Phillips

B Berard

Hamrlik

etc. etc. etc

 

All these guys were #1 Overall & never won a CUP...

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25 minutes ago, hearditall said:

Erik Johnson

Gord Kluzak

Doug Wickenheiser

Greg Joly

A. Daigle

Brian Lawton

R. Dipietro

Patrik Stefan

N. Yakopov

Ekblad

MacKinnon

RNH

Taylor Hall

Tavares

R. Nash

Kovalchuk

C. Phillips

B Berard

Hamrlik

etc. etc. etc

 

All these guys were #1 Overall & never won a CUP...

 

Thanks for the update 

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6 hours ago, CanadianRugby said:

I agree with a lot of your post but.. do you think Linden would say that the team won't tear down because it wouldn't be fair to the Sedins if they were planning on using the Sedins as 4th liners?  I think not.

 

As far as your main point that we're building from the back out...

Our top pairing was already here when Benning got here. 

Sbisa & Hutton were here already too.

So Benning has rebuilt our current D by trading prospects & picks for Gudbranson and signing Stecher.  It wasn't built through the draft other than Tryamkin.

But our D is very one dimensional, they add nothing to the offensive game.  Will the team win if it's the same thing for forwards?

 

If Benning is going to rebuild our forwards next.  He's going to have to do something different than he did with the D.  Because if he's going to be trading prospects & picks to acquire forwards then it will be difficult to rebuild through the draft.  If we're never going to tear down because "it's unfair to the Sedins" now, and in a few years this team shouldn't be bad enough to warrant a tear down then it will be hard to get lots of picks or high picks. 

 

Always wondered why you posted the way you do.. Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

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10 hours ago, Bert Diesel said:

          Although it's nice to win (especially against the Leafs) it's in the team's best interest to finish in the bottom 5-10 in the league for another year. With Juolevi, Boeser and some of the other prospects coming into the system in the next few years, the organization will get stronger from Utica up. Right now it's somewhat amazing to see this new young defense core come out of nowhere. Stecher, Tryamkin and Hutton have been beams of light through a dark past few years.

 

        For all the whining I here about the Lindbenning regime on social media and on this board, people don't give them enough credit for making some shrewd moves(just as Gillis was often unfairly criticized). Losing a guy like Corrado on waivers or failing to gain assets for Vrbata and Hamhuis were minor mistakes when you compare them to the finds they have garnered in the later rounds of the draft or, like Stecher, in free agency. The scrutiny of the media in this town creates an environment where the most minor mistakes are evidence of a general incompetence from management or a conspiracy from ownership. Can you imagine the reaction in this town if we had traded Lawson Crouse to get rid of the Dave Bolland contract as the new GM in Florida did recently. The pitchforks would have been out in full force. People shouldn't forget that the current management hands were tied with No-trade clauses, many of which were given out as rewards for previous sweetheart contracts and a highly successful era under Gillis. Yes, the team is going through some pain since the Tortorella year but our pain is extremely minor compared to the likes of Toronto or Edmonton who have suffered for over a decade. Have some perspective people. 

 

       Comparing the team to last year, the Canucks' defense could have never sustained the injuries it has this year and still remained competitive. Having Bartowski, Weber and Biega on the back end was an unmitigated disaster but the options were limited. Benning has managed to rebuild the defensive core in a rapid fashion. With Tanev and Edler out, they have the youngest defensive core in the league. If were are rebuilding from the net out, they now have a stable of young prospects (Demko, Garteig, Juolevi, Brisebois, Subban, Pedan, Neil) as well as the Hutton, Stech and Tryamkin trio already making big NHL contributions. This also allows for the possibility that the team could trade one of the more veteran guys (Tanev, Gudbranson or Edler) for some picks or young forwards. 

 

        The clear weakness of this years team is the lack of depth in the forward ranks. Having Megna and Chaput as regular forwards illustrates this. Injuries have hurt particularly Hansen and Rodin. The last few drafts have seen us gather Boeser, Lockwood and Gaudette all three have blossomed in the NCAA this year and last but there is still not enough organizational depth here particularly with the MCcan trade(I wonder if they'd take that one back). There is an obvious lack of size and speed in the Canucks as currently constructed. Virtanen and Boeser could help solve this problem but the regime needs to come out of the 2017 draft with a young, blue chip forward preferably a center. Ideally, the Canucks need to drop the Sedin's down to third or fourth line minutes and powerplay time if they are going to survive a few more seasons. In order to do this, they need to get an offensive threat coming out of junior. This may take about 2-3 seasons but the great positive of this year is that the team is more fun to watch and much more competitive despite not always seeing success in the standings.

 

Solid, well written and thought out. Thank you. 

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The debate over draft position is moot imo. It's not about the position number, it's about how well the GM can spot talent. If they can't it doesn't matter if they have the #1 pick every year. The caliber of a #1 draft pick varies in each draft and with Benning at the helm I have full confidence no matter what pick we have he'll find players that other GM's overlooked.

 

Boeser has already moved up into the top 10 if not the top 5 of his draft year. Demko is another example of a later round gem as is Tryamkin. Whether we get the #1 or #30 pick given Benning's knack for finding talent we will almost always get a great prospect.

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16 hours ago, Bert Diesel said:

          Although it's nice to win (especially against the Leafs) it's in the team's best interest to finish in the bottom 5-10 in the league for another year. With Juolevi, Boeser and some of the other prospects coming into the system in the next few years, the organization will get stronger from Utica up. Right now it's somewhat amazing to see this new young defense core come out of nowhere. Stecher, Tryamkin and Hutton have been beams of light through a dark past few years.

 

        For all the whining I here about the Lindbenning regime on social media and on this board, people don't give them enough credit for making some shrewd moves(just as Gillis was often unfairly criticized). Losing a guy like Corrado on waivers or failing to gain assets for Vrbata and Hamhuis were minor mistakes when you compare them to the finds they have garnered in the later rounds of the draft or, like Stecher, in free agency. The scrutiny of the media in this town creates an environment where the most minor mistakes are evidence of a general incompetence from management or a conspiracy from ownership. Can you imagine the reaction in this town if we had traded Lawson Crouse to get rid of the Dave Bolland contract as the new GM in Florida did recently. The pitchforks would have been out in full force. People shouldn't forget that the current management hands were tied with No-trade clauses, many of which were given out as rewards for previous sweetheart contracts and a highly successful era under Gillis. Yes, the team is going through some pain since the Tortorella year but our pain is extremely minor compared to the likes of Toronto or Edmonton who have suffered for over a decade. Have some perspective people. 

 

       Comparing the team to last year, the Canucks' defense could have never sustained the injuries it has this year and still remained competitive. Having Bartowski, Weber and Biega on the back end was an unmitigated disaster but the options were limited. Benning has managed to rebuild the defensive core in a rapid fashion. With Tanev and Edler out, they have the youngest defensive core in the league. If were are rebuilding from the net out, they now have a stable of young prospects (Demko, Garteig, Juolevi, Brisebois, Subban, Pedan, Neil) as well as the Hutton, Stech and Tryamkin trio already making big NHL contributions. This also allows for the possibility that the team could trade one of the more veteran guys (Tanev, Gudbranson or Edler) for some picks or young forwards. 

 

        The clear weakness of this years team is the lack of depth in the forward ranks. Having Megna and Chaput as regular forwards illustrates this. Injuries have hurt particularly Hansen and Rodin. The last few drafts have seen us gather Boeser, Lockwood and Gaudette all three have blossomed in the NCAA this year and last but there is still not enough organizational depth here particularly with the MCcan trade(I wonder if they'd take that one back). There is an obvious lack of size and speed in the Canucks as currently constructed. Virtanen and Boeser could help solve this problem but the regime needs to come out of the 2017 draft with a young, blue chip forward preferably a center. Ideally, the Canucks need to drop the Sedin's down to third or fourth line minutes and powerplay time if they are going to survive a few more seasons. In order to do this, they need to get an offensive threat coming out of junior. This may take about 2-3 seasons but the great positive of this year is that the team is more fun to watch and much more competitive despite not always seeing success in the standings.

 

 

Good post.

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9 hours ago, PrinceGeorgeGoon said:

How could we not be happy with our "D"? We had a hard look at it for a few years and now it has some promise that im sure other GMs are envious of. We line match our D, but not our forwards...

 

Yes Willie Dejardins is old , yes he shakes like he is riding a hardtail on a gravel road. Yes he blends his dinner.

But, why doesnt willie line match our forwards?

Hes learning, just isnt there yet.

We have a first time silver fox nhl coach just learning the ropes. 

Either that or hes an idiot. I prefer to think of the previous being true.

 

 

Listen to the game. Particularly to when the commentator said Babcock didn't put much importance on line matching. He is not the first coach to say that either.

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25 minutes ago, alfstonker said:

 

Listen to the game. Particularly to when the commentator said Babcock didn't put much importance on line matching. He is not the first coach to say that either.

 

i think that the Anaheim game was an example where line matching would have been helpful. Sedins were smothered by Ryan Kesler.  I don't know how more obvious that could be.  We are talking about one of the leagues best two way shutdown selke winning forwards who played with our top line for years.

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2 hours ago, riffraff said:

 

i think that the Anaheim game was an example where line matching would have been helpful. Sedins were smothered by Ryan Kesler.  I don't know how more obvious that could be.  We are talking about one of the leagues best two way shutdown selke winning forwards who played with our top line for years.

 

Yes but if you recall the Bo line was having an off day and really struggled.

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28 minutes ago, alfstonker said:

 

Yes but if you recall the Bo line was having an off day and really struggled.

 

I wouldn't say really struggled. They never seem to "really" struggle.  Besides, why cut the nose to spite the face?  You have to let the Bo line play through at least a game. They've been our best producers.  To swap match ups and reduce the Bo line TOI played right into Anaheims hands.  It was the wrong time/game to make those calls.  The proof was in the outcome and the play on the ice.

 

essentially both lines were neutered by that matchup decision.

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20 hours ago, Bert Diesel said:

  

        The clear weakness of this years team is the lack of depth in the forward ranks. Having Megna and Chaput as regular forwards illustrates this. Injuries have hurt particularly Hansen and Rodin. The last few drafts have seen us gather Boeser, Lockwood and Gaudette all three have blossomed in the NCAA this year and last but there is still not enough organizational depth here particularly with the MCcan trade(I wonder if they'd take that one back). There is an obvious lack of size and speed in the Canucks as currently constructed. Virtanen and Boeser could help solve this problem but the regime needs to come out of the 2017 draft with a young, blue chip forward preferably a center

 

 

I think you're bang-on but would suggest that maybe we already have enough depth at C going forward and have a bigger need for more creative wingers. Bo is showing he is going to be able to do the #1C job, and with better wingers that could be a scary top line, of #1LW - Bo - Boeser. Sutter has also shown he is a quality C despite his current role under Willie. For the 3rd and 4th lines we have a mix of Granny, Chaput, Gaunce, etc. to compete for spots there. 

 

Baer shows flashes of it like his goal against TO, but he's just not consistent enough. Maybe Lockwood or Gaudette could fill a role, but I'd be pretty happy if JB could trade or draft in a talented #1LW for Bo. 

 

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5 hours ago, Mattrek said:

The debate over draft position is moot imo. It's not about the position number, it's about how well the GM can spot talent. If they can't it doesn't matter if they have the #1 pick every year. The caliber of a #1 draft pick varies in each draft and with Benning at the helm I have full confidence no matter what pick we have he'll find players that other GM's overlooked.

 

Boeser has already moved up into the top 10 if not the top 5 of his draft year. Demko is another example of a later round gem as is Tryamkin. Whether we get the #1 or #30 pick given Benning's knack for finding talent we will almost always get a great prospect.

Draft position does make a difference. Can Benning find players lower down I the draft that can make the team? Sure he can. The dif is the odds go up as the picks go down. The higher the pick the better chance of getting a generational talent. A talent that a serious CUP contender can consolidate around. IMHO expecting Benning to draft lower and still produce a CUP contender is setting the guy up for failure. I am not advocating for a Laffer type sell off. Developing players in a competitive environment is worthwhile. I lean towards a development timeline with prospects getting regular TOI so they can get the time to develop. Not only does this develop the talent but also enables realistic assessments. I do not support vets getting overweighted TOI. ie the Twins should be at 18 minutes not 22. Edler should be at 20 - 22 minutes. Markstrom should be splitting games with Miller.

 

Totally agree with your point about 1C draft pick. The org does not have a 1C prospect at this time.

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3 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

Draft position does make a difference. Can Benning find players lower down I the draft that can make the team? Sure he can. The dif is the odds go up as the picks go down. The higher the pick the better chance of getting a generational talent. A talent that a serious CUP contender can consolidate around. IMHO expecting Benning to draft lower and still produce a CUP contender is setting the guy up for failure. I am not advocating for a Laffer type sell off. Developing players in a competitive environment is worthwhile. I lean towards a development timeline with prospects getting regular TOI so they can get the time to develop. Not only does this develop the talent but also enables realistic assessments. I do not support vets getting overweighted TOI. ie the Twins should be at 18 minutes not 22. Edler should be at 20 - 22 minutes. Markstrom should be splitting games with Miller.

 

Totally agree with your point about 1C draft pick. The org does not have a 1C prospect at this time.

it can certainly be done without that elite offensive #1 cman though........look no further than Chicago.  Toews is, clearly, one of the best two way fwds in the league, but he is far from that traditional, elite #1 offensive cman.  you can build around a Toews type as your #1 cman if you have depth down the middle from #1-#4 and if you have wingers who can score.

 

I would say the team has pretty solid depth down the middle for the forseeable future and is Boeser can translate his offense from the NCAA to the NHL and if Virt and baer can live up to expectations, that's a pretty solid core of fwds.  If JB can swap tanev/edler for a young sniper, then all of a sudden things look pretty good.

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The real shame in this is knowing that goaltending WAS their strength, while they were peaking, but chose to supplement their roster with a draft pick instead of a player.

 

We are pumping up a prospect and a career back-up goalie as an area of strength to build around? That's the spirit, optimists, but what was it called when we had Lu and CS?...  A superpower?

 

I cringe thinking that this collection of D is "speeding up the rebuild". We have a few #3's and a whole lot of 4-7's with no upside worth debating.

Edler and Tanev can be called #2's, but that's my point. Imagine them in 3 years. This is the fancy D core awaiting the sophomore version of Olli the prospect D? What letter grade do you give them? I'd say a C+ now and worse as Edler and Tanev collect wear and tear as Olli becomes useful. I am thrilled that they are finally tough with some size, but there are no impact players yet. So I don't share any rosy view of a future D, save FA signings and a crystal ball.

 

I'm excited they are FINALLY rebuilding, but I am not as optimistic about the prospect pool as some on here. I have major concerns about the roster. We used to warn about becoming a Calgary-spiral and now we are there, with holding onto aging vets, going nowhere.

 

This thing has yet to bottom out, but to me this is great because I am part of tank nation. I love Willie and Slenderman's Canucks on stealth mode. The silverlining is Benning's scouting and drafting. I've waited for Nedved to pan out, I can wait for anything.

 

 

 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said:

 

I think you're bang-on but would suggest that maybe we already have enough depth at C going forward and have a bigger need for more creative wingers. Bo is showing he is going to be able to do the #1C job, and with better wingers that could be a scary top line, of #1LW - Bo - Boeser. Sutter has also shown he is a quality C despite his current role under Willie. For the 3rd and 4th lines we have a mix of Granny, Chaput, Gaunce, etc. to compete for spots there. 

 

Baer shows flashes of it like his goal against TO, but he's just not consistent enough. Maybe Lockwood or Gaudette could fill a role, but I'd be pretty happy if JB could trade or draft in a talented #1LW for Bo. 

 

I think Bo could very well be a 1c but it wouldn't hurt to draft another C with our top pick this draft. A nice one-two punch never hurt a team. Example : Crosby-Malkin.

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20 hours ago, Lockhart said:

We need to get a legitimate 1C or a pure goal scorer in this draft. Missing out on Dubois put us back a bit, I have no doubts that Juolevi is going to turn out to be a a solid first pairing D man, but I really wanted Dubois at 5.

 

Boeser is our pure goal scorer, Horvat is our Toews lite in training. With more minutes and responsibility, I think either this year, or next year is the year that Horvat will break out and score 50-60 points while providing excellent defense; he's already tremendously improving his defensive abilities. If Horvat can ascend to the 1C position by age 22, we'll be in a VERY good position.

This would allow Sutter to drop down to the 2C line with Rodin and Eriksson, leaving the Sedins to the 3rd line to play with Hansen once back and healthy.

Personally I think competing and making the playoffs or even missing just slightly will be better for the core group we have here. Yes we won't have the sweetheart draft picks we all think we need, but right now we're pretty well set up for the immediate term. Gaunce, Granlund et al can all take a major step forward this season, and will get even better next season.

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