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Article - Leafs' reno on pace, while Canucks lagging behind


CanadianRugby

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I am not sure the first overall is the pick you want this year. Patrick has not even played since his first 6 games and now he will not be ready for WJ. Is he a safe pick or will he be injury prone. If you don't pick him and then he turns out this market will go nuts.

Anywhere in the top 5 will be nice. 

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1 minute ago, appleboy said:

I am not sure the first overall is the pick you want this year. Patrick has not even played since his first 6 games and now he will not be ready for WJ. Is he a safe pick or will he be injury prone. If you don't pick him and then he turns out this market will go nuts.

Anywhere in the top 5 will be nice. 

Top five pick is pretty much a guarantee.  The larger question is whether JB we move out guys in order to bring back draft picks?  Will this team FINALLY rebuild properly?  

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6 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Even if the task of the title in the article is false, anyone attempting to deny that Shanny and Lou didn't go full tank are delusional.

Don't get hung up on some bait and look at the difference in vision and execution. One team traded their captain, the other feels it wouldn't be fair.

 

 

The Canucks were in a different circumstance. The twins contract value and the fact that they have a NMC make it impossible to do what Toronto did. However we are still farther along in our own rebuild then people think. Benning has done very well considering the fact that they didn't blow things up. We will still draft very high this year even though they are trying to win or they will move the pick for more youth. (I hope it is for youth)

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1 minute ago, appleboy said:

The Canucks were in a different circumstance. The twins contract value and the fact that they have a NMC make it impossible to do what Toronto did. However we are still farther along in our own rebuild then people think. Benning has done very well considering the fact that they didn't blow things up. We will still draft very high this year even though they are trying to win or they will move the pick for more youth. (I hope it is for youth)

Youth like another team' s failed prospect?  Please not that kind of youth:(

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20 hours ago, Toews said:

I don't think you will find anyone deny that the draft is a crapshoot. The point of my post wasn't that there won't be any players that won't go unnoticed by GMs on draft day. The Detroit model or whatever that model used to be is outdated because they had access then to resources and information that other teams simply did not possess. That huge advantage that Detroit had is no more. The playing field eventually catches up and now all teams have access to those resources to varying degrees. Detroit is now competing with multiple teams for players that they once had almost exclusive access to

 

The thing is, there will still be players that get unnoticed. There are a lot of players and scouts can still only focus their attention on so much. You're still going to players that will fall through the cracks and come out of nowhere. If this wasn't the case and your case was true, we wouldn't have late round picks becoming prominent hockey players. We also would have a lot less college players who went under the radar and are now being offered contracts 2 or 3 years after they were draft eligible.

 

The expanded media coverage only changes how scouts do things. There's obviously more reach-out to other players, but we still have the same number of scouts that can only scout so much at the end of the day.

 

You have to take into account that, when people talk about the "Detroit model", they're generally talking about good scouting in the later rounds that allows a team to get some gems. The Detroit model does not necessarily mean having an "exclusive advantage" over other teams with certain players. Did they have those advantages? Of course they did and I'm not denying it, but it's also not the only thing about the Detroit model that made it work. Zetterberg and Datsyuk are only 2 players out of many they discovered and the focus on that model shouldn't be made exclusively to those 2 players. One could even argue that, perhaps, if those 2 players were in a town like Columbus who has a notoriously bad reputation with prospect training, they might have not have even made the NHL.

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5 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Top five pick is pretty much a guarantee.  The larger question is whether JB we move out guys in order to bring back draft picks?  Will this team FINALLY rebuild properly?  

It doesn't sound like he will. He said yesterday that he will not ask players to wave their ntc at trade deadline. If we all stop and get realistic we will see that many of our kids are not ready yet so why rush. You still need to ice a team so why move players out and then try to bring more back in for next year. Keep Miller and ley Demko develop. Leave Jake for a couple of years. Sit back and just use our picks and as contracts expire then move your kids in.

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1 minute ago, appleboy said:

It doesn't sound like he will. He said yesterday that he will not ask players to wave their ntc at trade deadline. If we all stop and get realistic we will see that many of our kids are not ready yet so why rush. You still need to ice a team so why move players out and then try to bring more back in for next year. Keep Miller and ley Demko develop. Leave Jake for a couple of years. Sit back and just use our picks and as contracts expire then move your kids in.

Not all our kids will become NHL players though.  I don't know the % of picks that makes it but let's say it's 20.  That's only 1 out of ever 5.  We need more picks, not less picks like what's been happening with JB, so we have more prospects.  

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1 minute ago, Alflives said:

Not all our kids will become NHL players though.  I don't know the % of picks that makes it but let's say it's 20.  That's only 1 out of ever 5.  We need more picks, not less picks like what's been happening with JB, so we have more prospects.  

It is a tough situation for Benning. As a rule I agree with your take that the prospect pool and breadth has to be better. I give Benning full credit for being able to sign college FA's. As you mentioned earlier I do hope for a top 5 pick. I caveat that by saying the goaltending has been very solid and that the d-core is better this year than I anticipated. Injuries do have a major impact on how well the team does point wise this season. If one of the Twins or Horvat get injured where does the team end up?

 

The issue this year is the expansion draft and how that impacts the valuation on draft picks and players who are exempt. It makes it tougher to move vets who's contracts do not expire this spring. So my hope is still that Miller and Burrows get some interest. I still hold out hope that teams see enough value in Edler or Tanev that they can trade for them and protect them in the expansion draft. That said it is not absolutely imperative that they be moved this year. The perceived value might actually be more next fall after the draft.

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3 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

It is a tough situation for Benning. As a rule I agree with your take that the prospect pool and breadth has to be better. I give Benning full credit for being able to sign college FA's. As you mentioned earlier I do hope for a top 5 pick. I caveat that by saying the goaltending has been very solid and that the d-core is better this year than I anticipated. Injuries do have a major impact on how well the team does point wise this season. If one of the Twins or Horvat get injured where does the team end up?

 

The issue this year is the expansion draft and how that impacts the valuation on draft picks and players who are exempt. It makes it tougher to move vets who's contracts do not expire this spring. So my hope is still that Miller and Burrows get some interest. I still hold out hope that teams see enough value in Edler or Tanev that they can trade for them and protect them in the expansion draft. That said it is not absolutely imperative that they be moved this year. The perceived value might actually be more next fall after the draft.

 

Benning is apparently not going to ask the vets to waive this year.  Linden even suggested that they could bring back Miller next season.  Benning's quotes in the Provies:

 

“I’m not doing it. I’m not going to any one of them to ask them to waive their no-trades,” Benning said. “If they come to me, I will accommodate it and find a trade.

“But otherwise I’m not going to ask any of them to waive.”

Then there’s Edler, who is 30 and still represents one of the Canucks better options to get some more offence.

“We need him in this lineup,” Benning said. “We need Hansen’s speed. And you’ve seen what Burrows has done playing with Horvat and Baertschi. He’s been really good for them.”

When asked if this represents a philosophical shift for a GM who has asked Bieksa, Hamhuis, Vrbata and Garrison to all waive NTCs in the past, Benning said it was not. He is still willing to do it, just not this year.

“It’s about these players. These are the guys we want to keep and build our young players around,” he said.

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What the Laffers have done under Shanahan was necessary. Their org has been rebuilt with young prospects. Their Marlies are loaded with players who haven't even made the NHL yet. If the Canucks continue drafting in the bottom third of the draft for the next 2 years they might have the forward base they don't have now.  

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3 minutes ago, mll said:

 

Benning is apparently not going to ask the vets to waive this year.  Linden even suggested that they could bring back Miller next season.  Benning's quotes in the Provies:

 

He is still willing to do it, just not this year.

This is the statement that caught my eye.

 

The twins have one year left on their deal. Many have said that their will be no tear down type of rebuild until their deal  is done. I won't be surprised to see them resign Burrows and we see status quo next year. Next years trade deadline could be a completely different story.

 

That is a time line that I can handle as long as they keep their top 2 picks.

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16 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

What the Laffers have done under Shanahan was necessary. Their org has been rebuilt with young prospects. Their Marlies are loaded with players who haven't even made the NHL yet. If the Canucks continue drafting in the bottom third of the draft for the next 2 years they might have the forward base they don't have now.  

Yes, and they still have the pipeline from the A. This being a huge difference between us and them.

Bringing in TL as a PR saviour move has nearly run its course too, as he now must utter Aquaman's "plan" to do nothing to the media and fans.

I was always a Shanny fan of how approached the game.

 

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Here is a horrible thought.

What if they are setting up to give the twins one last kick at the can. There was a rumor put out that they may look to move their first round pick at the draft. This would make sense because any deal they make this year could become a problem at the expansion draft. It would make sense to make a deal at the draft table. What if they use their first and players like Jake and anything else to strengthen the team for one last run. Bring in Boeser and go all in for next year.

If we se Miller and Burrows sign a one year deal then expect almost anything at the draft.

 

As long as they do not move Demko, Boeser and Juolevi I think there would be a lot of fans who would get on board with that.

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9 minutes ago, appleboy said:

Here is a horrible thought.

What if they are setting up to give the twins one last kick at the can. There was a rumor put out that they may look to move their first round pick at the draft. This would make sense because any deal they make this year could become a problem at the expansion draft. It would make sense to make a deal at the draft table. What if they use their first and players like Jake and anything else to strengthen the team for one last run. Bring in Boeser and go all in for next year.

If we se Miller and Burrows sign a one year deal then expect almost anything at the draft.

 

As long as they do not move Demko, Boeser and Juolevi I think there would be a lot of fans who would get on board with that.

Unless they trade for Crosby or McDavid there's a pretty good chance we won't even make the playoffs.... one last run at what?  That ship sailed in 2013.

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26 minutes ago, appleboy said:

Here is a horrible thought.

What if they are setting up to give the twins one last kick at the can. There was a rumor put out that they may look to move their first round pick at the draft. This would make sense because any deal they make this year could become a problem at the expansion draft. It would make sense to make a deal at the draft table. What if they use their first and players like Jake and anything else to strengthen the team for one last run. Bring in Boeser and go all in for next year.

If we se Miller and Burrows sign a one year deal then expect almost anything at the draft.

 

As long as they do not move Demko, Boeser and Juolevi I think there would be a lot of fans who would get on board with that.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/30-thoughts-still-odds-nhl-olympic-participation/

Capture.JPG

It's possible.  If it happens I will hate Benning more than Messier. 

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10 hours ago, WHL rocks said:

Article is pretty much bang on. Some homers will strongly disagree but that's only becasue they have a hard time dealing with facts. 

 

I said right after the gave vs Leafs that

 

 

This article says the same thing. Our D is coming along nicely, Our goalies are set with Markstrom and Demko coming up in couple of years. But at forward this team needs at least 3 or 4 more young, fast, skilled, tough forwards. Every Cup team has multiple very high end forwards. We need more Horvats and Boesers. 

 

A couple of them have to be drafted, and we could get 1 via trade and another via UFA when we are ready to contend 5 or 6 years down the road. 

 

How exactly is it 'bang on'? Who is denying we still need to add more high end forwards exactly? I've not seen any 'Homers' make this claim.

 

The 'facts' are, that our D and goaltending has largely been rebuilt (though I'm sure it will continue to be tweaked). Those also tend to be the pieces that take the longest to develop. I sure wouldn't trade our D and goalie youngsters for theirs.

 

They do have a nice collection of skilled forwards though (the biggest piece being largely luck derived and having nothing to do with how well or what type of rebuild they're doing). Funnily enough, those guys generally take the least time to develop and we'll likely be grabbing a good number of them in the next couple years as our rebuild continues (whether that be via draft, trade, college etc).

 

We're not even 1/2 way through the rebuild and we haven't made all our moves or had most of our picks develop yet to see where they're even going to be at in the NHL. It's highly premature to be making claims of failure. Frankly, seeing what Benning has done with our future D in just 2 years, I'm excited to watch the transformation of our forwards in the next 2.

 

4 minutes ago, appleboy said:

Here is a horrible thought.

What if they are setting up to give the twins one last kick at the can. There was a rumor put out that they may look to move their first round pick at the draft. This would make sense because any deal they make this year could become a problem at the expansion draft. It would make sense to make a deal at the draft table. What if they use their first and players like Jake and anything else to strengthen the team for one last run. Bring in Boeser and go all in for next year.

If we se Miller and Burrows sign a one year deal then expect almost anything at the draft.

 

As long as they do not move Demko, Boeser and Juolevi I think there would be a lot of fans who would get on board with that.

 

I don't think they're blind to what's happening. They've also been quoted numerous times that they're well aware of where the organization is and won't be sacrificing future (any of our blue chip prospects) for now (vets).

 

That said, if we move our first for someone like say Landeskog or Reinhart, both of whom are quite young and quite skilled, I wouldn't bat an eye.

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18 minutes ago, CeeBee51 said:

Unless they trade for Crosby or McDavid there's a pretty good chance we won't even make the playoffs.... one last run at what?  That ship sailed in 2013.

That depends on a LOT of things. If we draft/trade for an impact forward or two this summer who can contribute, Boeser can come in and be a legit player, and our young D continues to impress...it's not entirely out of the question.

 

Something like:

'Landeskog', Horvat, Eriksson

Sedin, Sedin, Sutter

Baer, Granlund, Boeser

Dorsett, Gaunce, Hansen

 

Would be a pretty decent forward group on top of our solid D and goaltending.

 

Having said that, it could also go south and we're picking top 10 again next year too.

 

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52 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

The thing is, there will still be players that get unnoticed. There are a lot of players and scouts can still only focus their attention on so much. You're still going to players that will fall through the cracks and come out of nowhere. If this wasn't the case and your case was true, we wouldn't have late round picks becoming prominent hockey players. We also would have a lot less college players who went under the radar and are now being offered contracts 2 or 3 years after they were draft eligible.

 

The expanded media coverage only changes how scouts do things. There's obviously more reach-out to other players, but we still have the same number of scouts that can only scout so much at the end of the day.

 

You have to take into account that, when people talk about the "Detroit model", they're generally talking about good scouting in the later rounds that allows a team to get some gems. The Detroit model does not necessarily mean having an "exclusive advantage" over other teams with certain players. Did they have those advantages? Of course they did and I'm not denying it, but it's also not the only thing about the Detroit model that made it work. Zetterberg and Datsyuk are only 2 players out of many they discovered and the focus on that model shouldn't be made exclusively to those 2 players. One could even argue that, perhaps, if those 2 players were in a town like Columbus who has a notoriously bad reputation with prospect training, they might have not have even made the NHL.

That's not what I am saying though. I have always accepted that evaluating the potential and expected growth of 18/19 year olds is a monumentally difficult task, one which requires a considerable bit of luck as well. All I am saying is that the success of the "Detroit model" has been misinterpreted by fans, that even Detroit has not been able to reproduce the success that they had in the 90s. They are good team at drafting but not exceptional and well beyond the rest of the NHL like they used to be. When people pull out the Detroit model as evidence, they do so to cite that a team can have sustained success at drafting core players in the lower rounds of the draft. Yet Detroit whom this supposed "model" is based on haven't done that with any consistency in a very long time and this is due to the rest of the playing field catching up to their methods.

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It is not something that I would be very pleased with. Every draft that we waist is one more year we need latter.

 

Hopefully that would mean that the Sedin era was over and we could start a proper rebuild. That would mean we would be resigning them and the future would be about the youth.

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