Discussion - Should the Canucks explore trading the Sedins to Montreal

[Me_]

6 hours ago, coolboarder said:

 No I disagree.  Deal with them individually just like other teams do with their traded superstars.  If we do your way, we'll be fleeced.   I'll use this idea assuming that they have asked the Canucks to trade them this season.   First, I'll deal with them individually then combine and compare.

 

NHL

Daniel

50% salary retention

 

VAN

1st round pick (31 overall first round protected) in other word, the Canucks would rather to have higher pick than 31st overall pick so if they win the cup, it will be deferred to 2018 or 2019)

2nd round pick, conditional (if they win the cup)  No 62th overall pick with Vegas in 2nd round.  so In other word, 2018 pick or 2019 pick, depend on which year they win the cup.

1 top prospect

 

NHL

Henrik

50% salary retention

 

VAN

1st round pick with same condition above with 2019 or 2020 pick.

2nd round pick, conditional (if they win the cup, the same as above, 2019 or 2020 draft)

1 their next top prospect

Salary dump expires the same year the Sedin's contract wherever is possible.

 

So to combine this trade, 2 for 1 deal.

:

NHL

Daniel

Henrik

50% salary retention

 

VAN

2 1st round pick with conditions.

2 2nd conditional round pick if they win the cup with no 62nd overall 2nd round pick.

2 top prospects

1 Salary dump

 

This is only fair, imo.

What is better? A low 1st draft, a top notch prospect and a re-signing of the Sedins, or just keeping the Sedins?

 

You are suggesting, deals not one team will look at.

[riffraff]

Anyone noticed how fast the Habs  are?..............

[Johnny Shotgun]

As a huge fan of the Sedins for all they did as players on the ice and the class they have shown as individuals....maybe it is time to cut the cord.  Both to actually give them a shot at the Stanley Cup and a way for the team to say thanks for all you have done now here's your chance.  Face it right now it isn't working for either party.

[KKnight]

7 hours ago, coolboarder said:

 No I disagree.  Deal with them individually just like other teams do with their traded superstars.  If we do your way, we'll be fleeced.   I'll use this idea assuming that they have asked the Canucks to trade them this season.   First, I'll deal with them individually then combine and compare.

 

NHL

Daniel

50% salary retention

 

VAN

1st round pick (31 overall first round protected) in other word, the Canucks would rather to have higher pick than 31st overall pick so if they win the cup, it will be deferred to 2018 or 2019)

2nd round pick, conditional (if they win the cup)  No 62th overall pick with Vegas in 2nd round.  so In other word, 2018 pick or 2019 pick, depend on which year they win the cup.

1 top prospect

 

NHL

Henrik

50% salary retention

 

VAN

1st round pick with same condition above with 2019 or 2020 pick.

2nd round pick, conditional (if they win the cup, the same as above, 2019 or 2020 draft)

1 their next top prospect

Salary dump expires the same year the Sedin's contract wherever is possible.

 

So to combine this trade, 2 for 1 deal.

:

NHL

Daniel

Henrik

50% salary retention

 

VAN

2 1st round pick with conditions.

2 2nd conditional round pick if they win the cup with no 62nd overall 2nd round pick.

2 top prospects

1 Salary dump

 

This is only fair, imo.

So your idea is to deal the 2 players who have always played together, their entire careers on the same team and ship them off to two different teams. Im sure that will be quite the send off for our franchises 2 best players all time. Keep it classy. 

[coolboarder]

4 minutes ago, KKnight said:

So your idea is to deal the 2 players who have always played together, their entire careers on the same team and ship them off to two different teams. Im sure that will be quite the send off for our franchises 2 best players all time. Keep it classy. 

No, no, that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying, combine them with fairer return than other proposals that I've seen so far makes me shake my head.   I'm also saying that add more picks than just one year of pick.  I mean, two players are worth two first round picks plus additional picks and more late round picks or salary dump.    If you are trading one superstar on their expire contract at TDL, you'd expect hefty price in return for just one player.   So trade them accordingly to one individual for one individual package in return plus other individual player for similar package that other superstars in history has done that in the past.  So this is more of an unique situation as they are two players and I expect some hefty return than other fans' proposal   So treat them accordingly with one team in return.   Just double the package for two players in return is what I'm saying.   

 

I am also saying that a Sedin is 2/3 of a line in the cup contender team, making a team that already have stronger first line than Sedin with a second line potential stronger than Sedin if they didn't change their roster too much, making them even more effective third liner playing like first line.   A Sedin line playing with top teams making them even more dangerous because the opponent coach cannot send their top pairing to keep them in check so this is the reason why I expect a hefty price for them.   Sedins tend to take advantage of a 2nd pairing or even 3rd pairing on a key situation in the game even when they are playing a slower pace cycle game.

[qwijibo]

8 hours ago, coolboarder said:

 No I disagree.  Deal with them individually just like other teams do with their traded superstars.  If we do your way, we'll be fleeced.   I'll use this idea assuming that they have asked the Canucks to trade them this season.   First, I'll deal with them individually then combine and compare.

 

NHL

Daniel

50% salary retention

 

VAN

1st round pick (31 overall first round protected) in other word, the Canucks would rather to have higher pick than 31st overall pick so if they win the cup, it will be deferred to 2018 or 2019)

2nd round pick, conditional (if they win the cup)  No 62th overall pick with Vegas in 2nd round.  so In other word, 2018 pick or 2019 pick, depend on which year they win the cup.

1 top prospect

 

NHL

Henrik

50% salary retention

 

VAN

1st round pick with same condition above with 2019 or 2020 pick.

2nd round pick, conditional (if they win the cup, the same as above, 2019 or 2020 draft)

1 their next top prospect

Salary dump expires the same year the Sedin's contract wherever is possible.

 

So to combine this trade, 2 for 1 deal.

:

NHL

Daniel

Henrik

50% salary retention

 

VAN

2 1st round pick with conditions.

2 2nd conditional round pick if they win the cup with no 62nd overall 2nd round pick.

2 top prospects

1 Salary dump

 

This is only fair, imo.

So you expect a team to completely gut their organization to acquire 2 36 year old FORMER allstars? Not only that. But the team who makes that trade will subsequently have to waste 2 spots on the protection list in the expansion draft.

 

So now they lose 2 1st's. 2 2nd's 2 top prospects AND likely a better player in the expansion draft than the would have otherwise. 

 

Completely unrealistic expectations. 

[coolboarder]

31 minutes ago, qwijibo said:

So you expect a team to completely gut their organization to acquire 2 36 year old FORMER allstars? Not only that. But the team who makes that trade will subsequently have to waste 2 spots on the protection list in the expansion draft.

 

So now they lose 2 1st's. 2 2nd's 2 top prospects AND likely a better player in the expansion draft than the would have otherwise. 

 

Completely unrealistic expectations. 

Treat them as an package, not going to two teams.   Both of Sedin go to one team, not two teams.   My post were given as an example to treat them as individually then combine them as one package for a hefty return.   If other team cannot afford to our demand then keep them.   Or even if they have a concern about protection and draft then deal with them during off-season for a hefty package as I stated above. If there is a taker from the TDL and meet our request demands in return for a pair for a hefty return.   It is still a win-win situation, if other team can't meet my hefty demands, keep them to mentor our youngster and even if they do agree, it will speed up the rebuild and try again next year to see if there's any taker and still meet my demands.  If there's still no taker by the time their contracts expire by then, it's still a win-win situation because we'll be perceived as a classy organization by the outsider that a twin has played together for their whole career without trading them away.   I don't see that we'll lose for nothing and other players will take notice and will want to sign with us based on our history treating Hamhuis, Vrbata and others even if their contract ran out.    Whatever we sow, we shall reap out from all of this situation.

[qwijibo]

5 minutes ago, coolboarder said:

Treat them as an package, not going to two teams.   Both of Sedin go to one team, not two teams.   My post were given as an example to treat them as individually then combine them as one package for a hefty return.   If other team cannot afford to our demand then keep them.   Or even if they have a concern about protection and draft then deal with them during off-season for a hefty package as I stated above. If there is a taker from the TDL and meet our request demands in return for a pair for a hefty return.   It is still a win-win situation, if other team can't meet my hefty demands, keep them to mentor our youngster and even if they do agree, it will speed up the rebuild and try again next year to see if there's any taker and still meet my demands.  If there's still no taker by the time their contracts expire by then, it's still a win-win situation because we'll be perceived as a classy organization by the outsider that a twin has played together for their whole career without trading them away.   I don't see that we'll lose for nothing and other players will take notice and will want to sign with us based on our history treating Hamhuis, Vrbata and others even if their contract ran out.    Whatever we sow, we shall reap out from all of this situation.

No team is going to ante up the kind of return you seem to think they're worth together as a package. I'm in the camp that believes they're practically un-moveable. Time will tell. But if they do get moved I'll bet you it's for a substantailly smaller return than what you outlined 

[VanGnome]

Here's the thing, the Sedins have been absolutely phenomenal since 2004. It's been 11-12 glorious years with them leading the charge, but it's no longer their team. Their time is done.

They say they would love to become 2nd line players, but no one's stepped up to take the 1st line role from them. That's a bit of a chicken and egg argument if you ask me, since we know WD has zero spine, and the Sedins are quiet but strong personality types so their will is thy command in essence.

 

We have a 3 way Mexican Standoff here:

1. The Sedin's won't go quietly into the night despite clearly not being able to carry a team any longer

2. Coaching has no backbone, and so will not adjust their strategy to utilize the younger legs on this team more, and shift more responsibility to the younger players

3. Management is hamstrung by ownership (despite what TL says, he has to say what he's saying), and so will not (cannot) initiate a move to replenish assets from trading the Sedins

 

The result we have is thus, the Canucks will continue to toil in mediocrity until the Sedins retire. Then, and only then will this team be able to move forward to actually getting better fundamentally.

I'm honestly sick and tired of management's waffling and fence sitting. Ownership ties their hands and mandates one thing, so management says it's about respect to the Sedin's that they won't tear down the team, just like Benning stating he will not ask players with No Trades to waive. Honestly, that is utter bull$&!#, and people know it. You CAN respectfully move players near the end of their careers when it's clear that the team as is will not provide them the chance to win.

 

Respect does not rebuild a team, nor translate into wins. I have respect for what the Sedin's have done, and so should everyone. IMO the Sedin's should have respect for the organization that gave them the platform to excel as players and come within a single game of winning the Stanley Cup, and request a trade (quietly) if there is legitimate interest in them this season.

 

The fruits of having traded the Sedins likely will not be harvested until 3-4 years, but what it does is expedite the movement to giving the team to the younger players, and settling on a specific focus and direction.

I agree that probably the only NTC/NMCs that shouldn't be asked to waive should be Eriksson and Sutter simply because of the optics. That said, the collective return from Miller, Burrows, Edler, Hansen and the Sedins would single handedly restore our prospect pool and give a much needed infusion of new blood to this organization.

I don't know about anyone else, but with a change in strategy (less puck possession/cycle and more north-south high tempo crash and bang play), and a boat load of picks and prospects in the cupboard, this is a lineup I can get behind and enjoy watching the remainder of this season:

 

Baertschi - Horvat - Eriksson
Granlund - Sutter - Rodin
Gaunce - Chaput - Skille

Labate - Zalewski - Megna

Hutton - Stecher

Tryamkin - Tanev

Sbisa - Gudbranson

Markstrom
Bachman

There is a lineup that is arguably not as skilled as what we are seeing now, but just as competitive. I've always said that if we are going to lose, we might as well lose with the youngest/most inexperienced line up we can while still having veteran presence.

Eriksson, Sutter, Skille, Tanev, Sbisa, Gudbranson and Markstrom can provide enough leadership to ensure we don't end up as the Oilers of the past decade.

[CanadianRugby]

I would love this trade.  Get Vancouver the draft picks/prospects they desperately need, give Sedins a chance to win a Cup.

Not going to happen. 

I think Edler is going to get traded for a 2nd/3rd liner.

[coolboarder]

2 hours ago, qwijibo said:

No team is going to ante up the kind of return you seem to think they're worth together as a package. I'm in the camp that believes they're practically un-moveable. Time will tell. But if they do get moved I'll bet you it's for a substantailly smaller return than what you outlined 

Well then, make it conditional agreement saying that if you reach the Finals or even win it all, you're going to give up most of your draft in next 3 years, something to an effect making it fair for both side even if the odd is not bright on the Canucks' side.  You got to convince the other team that if you win the cup with Sedin, what does it leaves us?  Pay up with some of your asset with a conditional agreement with some draft picks to replenish our asset while you have your glory in the present time.  I would say to other GM in negotiation,  If you don't win with the Sedin, you don't have to lose a lot of asset you have.  You got to convince other GM saying that Sedin is 2/3 of the second line or even first line.    Give us the guaranteed smaller return now then if you win the cup, give us the bigger return, that's what I'd say to the GM making those calculated risk for these two superstars players.  I have nothing to lose trying to convince those GMs with the prize asset I only have.

 

I would also give other GM some kind of flexibility on our demands for example:

 

Guaranteed returns (smaller return)

1st round pick that is not 30th overall pick and deferred to next season and if you failed to reach the final this year, I'll take this year first round pick with no deferred pick the year after

1 third round pick.

One of your top prospect.

one NHLer that is under contract for next few years, not a cap dump and is a good player.

one salary dump for full salary retention or no cap dump with 50% salary retention.

Total guaranteed returns: 2 unknown players plus 2 or 3 known player.

 

Conditional returns Option A (if you win the cup):

If you win the cup, I'll take 31st overall pick of the year you win the cup from guaranteed return deal plus 1 extra first round pick the next draft year.  And one second round pick

One of your top prospect of our choice, that is not with the team after the deadlines regardless of call-up.  No less than 30 NHL games played before the deadline regardless of stats in term of points or whatever.  Not a junior player and not a goalie).  Further advanced developed player of my choice as long as it meet the agreed criteria and the deadline is 4 days after the cup win to make my claim.  The other team cannot prevent those deal and must accept my choice with the agreed criteria through the negotiation.

Total players in conditional returns: 3 unknown players.

 

Conditional returns Option B (if you win the cup)

If you don't want to give up another of your top prospect of our choice then I'll take three first round picks in next 3 seasons

Plus 2 second round picks.

Total players in conditional return in Option B is 4 unknown players..

 

This two options will give other GM some kind of flexibility with smaller returns but with risk of giving up huge with conditional agreement and I think that other GM will bait on the risk thinking that they might not have to give up much after all.   Once other GM decides on one of those option, they cannot recant after the trade is made with potential huge return for them.    You got to be creative with those conditional agreements which is no guarantee.  

[Baggins]

7 hours ago, KKnight said:

So your idea is to deal the 2 players who have always played together, their entire careers on the same team and ship them off to two different teams. Im sure that will be quite the send off for our franchises 2 best players all time. Keep it classy. 

 

It also completely ignores the fact the Sedins could simply use their nmc and refuse to be traded to different teams.

[Caknuckle Puck]

[dura_mater]

On 09/12/2016 at 11:04 AM, hearditall said:

At this point & time we have Megna, Chaput, Lebate, Grenier to play instead of the Sedins. Why pay The Sedins to play for another team? So we can have the other teams over paid contracts coming back? Or play Lebate & Grenier???

Nobody to replace them...

If you don't have the answer to this question already then I'm not sure you've read half the comments in this thread.  If you COULD trade the Sedins, you'd pay them to play for another team, not for over paid contracts coming back, that's stupid.  You'd pay them to play for another team for picks and prospects (most importantly) and to speed up the rebuild (of lesser importance when making the trade).

[Baggins]

I don't see any team having interest in the Sedins this season with the expansion draft coming.

[Phat Fingers]

Watch the twins get traded and then placed in seperate lines, and explode with points. They have the skill and smarts, just have the same weakness and would do better on two different lines during 5v5. They are also highly competitive so they would be challenging each other. 

 

 

[Phat Fingers]

53 minutes ago, Baggins said:

I don't see any team having interest in the Sedins this season with the expansion draft coming.

 

 

Likely right. I would like to see a coach actually try them on seperate lines, to help out with mentoring and, it's not like Henrik had his best season and his highest points production with Danuel out for 18 games. He was a man on fire and it was awesome.  It has yet to be repeated. We are 28th, have a much younger roster and with nothing to lose. 

 

We have a plethora of wingers and Hansen is due back. We can mix and match but here are some examples. 

 

Place Henrik with Hansen and Baer. Hansen provides the 2 way play and speed on the forcheck. Baer has skill and has shown some hands of late. If Baer doesn't break out, he can sit for a few. 

 

Daniel goes with Horvat and Eriksson on the right. Horvat has two players that can convert some of his setups. He creates so many chances.  

 

Granlund with Sutter and Rodin or Burrows. Good line, all can skate very well. The only change would be to put Rodin up a line of he can catch fire, allowing Hansen to drop down.  

 

A Hansen/Sutter/Burows line would be a two way force. 

 

Burrows with Gaunce and Skille. Good two way line that could be a 3b line with some time. 

 

No real bruisers, Virtannen should stay in the AHL for the foreseeable future. We have some meat on the back end with Guddy and Trymamkin.

 

Labate and Pedan are available for call ups if we need some more muscle. Pedan can play LW on the 4th if need be. 

 

 

[hearditall]

8 hours ago, dura_mater said:

If you don't have the answer to this question already then I'm not sure you've read half the comments in this thread.  If you COULD trade the Sedins, you'd pay them to play for another team, not for over paid contracts coming back, that's stupid.  You'd pay them to play for another team for picks and prospects (most importantly) and to speed up the rebuild (of lesser importance when making the trade).

How does any contending team take on that pay without dumping others??? 

[dura_mater]

16 hours ago, hearditall said:

How does any contending team take on that pay without dumping others??? 

They don't.  The way hearditall worded it was that we were going to pay them to play for another team and take on contracts dumps and nothing else.  No one's suggesting JUST that.  Of course that's PART of the deal but the rest would be picks/prospects coming back.

[189lb enforcers?]

Sedins for two 1st, 2 seconds and two prospects???

 

Rebuild complete?

 

That's an awesomely homered-up proposal, keep dreaming.