the Sedins - time to take more ownership of the situation?

[bingofan]

(summary at the bottom)

 

Let me start by saying that I love the Sedin's - their contributions to the team, franchise and our community probably surpass any one player in our history. I feel privileged to have seen them in their prime - they produce plays that I had never seen before, and doubt I will see again after they retire. They are true pros in every sense of the word.

 

I am, however, a little perplexed at how unwilling they are to (publicly) take more ownership of this team's poor offensive production over these past couple of years. The fact is that they are are simply not producing enough for a pair of $7 million players playing on the same line for a team to be successful. They make up 2/5 of our top PP unit, which is one of the worst in the league. Part of that has to be on them. Further, they do not hit, block shots, or kill penalties, so when they do not score, their contributions are greatly diminished.

 

I was really disappointed recently when, asked to compare this team to the 2010-11 team, they essentially said that they were able to play a different game back then because they had better defensemen. Are they not willing at all to attribute any decline in performance to the fact that they have aged and slowed down, while the players around them have gotten faster? If I was a defenseman on this team, I would feel really discouraged at hearing my leaders talk this way.

 

I also really dislike it when they say they would like someone on the team to step up and take over the first line. Again, this means that we would be paying two players $14 million to play on the second line. The fact is, they are being paid first line money, and part of the reason for our anemic offence is that they are not producing at the rate we need them to. Many cite our lack of secondary scoring as our biggest problem - well, we don't have primary scoring either. Aside from Erickson, no forward on this team comes close to making what the Sedin's make. So when they, as leaders, say that they would like someone to step up offensively, how do you think that makes the other players (making significantly less money) feel? 

 

I've also heard it be said that we need better secondary scoring to take pressure off the top line. This would be like saying, "The backup goalie needs to play better to take pressure off the starter." Obviously it's the top players that need to produce to take pressure off the secondary scorers. Of course successful teams have secondary scorers to pick up the slack when the top line has an off night. But the reality is that productive nights for the Sedin's are too few and far between. And when they do not produce, they are unable to make other significant on-ice contributions. It bewilders me a little at how the team and the media seem to turn a blind eye to this fact.

 

Others have said that part of the money they make now is payment for services rendered at a time when they were being paid under market value. That is fine, but it doesn't change how we should view the predicament now, which is that our highest paid players are not producing the way we need them to. What I would like to hear the Sedin's say at some point is, "we are paid to produce points, and part of the reason the team is not successful is that we haven't been producing consistently enough." Everyone knows it - I just wished they would publicly acknowledge it.

 

Summary: The Sedin's are being paid top line money (aside from Erickson, no forward on the Canucks makes close to what they make), and are not scoring at the rate they need to in order for the Canucks to be successful. As leaders, I wish they would publicly take ownership of this fact, instead of saying after every loss "we weren't good enough," "we had too many turnovers," "we beat ourselves" etc...

 

[Toni Zamboni]

i thought ownership was the problem?

[Alflives]

Ha in before the lock comes down.  I'll read it later.

 

i have an extra blue and green sucker for you; it can change your thoughts to positive:)

[kingofsurrey]

Careful criticizing  our top 2 forwards all time.....

 

Canuck fans don't want to hear the truth. 

 

End of an era.  Painful. 

[Alflives]

9 minutes ago, bingofan said:

(summary at the bottom)

 

Let me start by saying that I love the Sedin's - their contributions to the team, franchise and our community probably surpass any one player in our history. I feel privileged to have seen them in their prime - they produce plays that I had never seen before, and doubt I will see again after they retire. They are true pros in every sense of the word.

 

I am, however, a little perplexed at how unwilling they are to (publicly) take more ownership of this team's poor offensive production over these past couple of years. The fact is that they are are simply not producing enough for a pair of $7 million players playing on the same line for a team to be successful. They make up 2/5 of our top PP unit, which is one of the worst in the league. Part of that has to be on them. Further, they do not hit, block shots, or kill penalties, so when they do not score, their contributions are greatly diminished.

 

I was really disappointed recently when, asked to compare this team to the 2010-11 team, they essentially said that they were able to play a different game back then because they had better defensemen. Are they not willing at all to attribute any decline in performance to the fact that they have aged and slowed down, while the players around them have gotten faster? If I was a defenseman on this team, I would feel really discouraged at hearing my leaders talk this way.

 

I also really dislike it when they say they would like someone on the team to step up and take over the first line. Again, this means that we would be paying two players $14 million to play on the second line. The fact is, they are being paid first line money, and part of the reason for our anemic offence is that they are not producing at the rate we need them to. Many cite our lack of secondary scoring as our biggest problem - well, we don't have primary scoring either. Aside from Erickson, no forward on this team comes close to making what the Sedin's make. So when they, as leaders, say that they would like someone to step up offensively, how do you think that makes the other players (making significantly less money) feel? 

 

I've also heard it be said that we need better secondary scoring to take pressure off the top line. This would be like saying, "The backup goalie needs to play better to take pressure off the starter." Obviously it's the top players that need to produce to take pressure off the secondary scorers. Of course successful teams have secondary scorers to pick up the slack when the top line has an off night. But the reality is that productive nights for the Sedin's are too few and far between. And when they do not produce, they are unable to make other significant on-ice contributions. It bewilders me a little at how the team and the media seem to turn a blind eye to this fact.

 

Others have said that part of the money they make now is payment for services rendered at a time when they were being paid under market value. That is fine, but it doesn't change how we should view the predicament now, which is that our highest paid players are not producing the way we need them to. What I would like to hear the Sedin's say at some point is, "we are paid to produce points, and part of the reason the team is not successful is that we haven't been producing consistently enough." Everyone knows it - I just wished they would publicly acknowledge it.

 

Summary: The Sedin's are being paid top line money (aside from Erickson, no forward on the Canucks makes close to what they make), and are not scoring at the rate they need to in order for the Canucks to be successful. As leaders, I wish they would publicly take ownership of this fact, instead of saying after every loss "we weren't good enough," "we had too many turnovers," "we beat ourselves" etc...

 

They are almost done their contracts.  Hopefully, JB can do a Burke and draft two similarly elite forwards, do our team can be one a top club again.  

[Bur14Kes17]

Creates an account and in his very first post, he rips on the Sedins 

[bingofan]

I'm not trying to be negative - it's just that if I were a player on this team (e.g., a defenseman working hard just to make it in the NHL, or a journeyman forward), I would get really discouraged at never hearing my leaders call the situation as it is. The Sedin's are leaders, and they make a lot of money. They are also not producing at the rate they are paid to. The least they could do is acknowledge that instead of saying they used to play with better defensemen or that they would like someone to step up offensively. Is that not fair to ask of them?

[Rocksterh8]

Knowing Jim, he'll re-sign them until they're 40 for another stupid amount of money.

[Rocksterh8]

5 minutes ago, bingofan said:

I'm not trying to be negative - it's just that if I were a player on this team (e.g., a defenseman working hard just to make it in the NHL, or a journeyman forward), I would get really discouraged at never hearing my leaders call the situation as it is. The Sedin's are leaders, and they make a lot of money. They are also not producing at the rate they are paid to. The least they could do is acknowledge that instead of saying they used to play with better defensemen or that they would like someone to step up offensively. Is that not fair to ask of them?

 

Oh come on, if you were a player you'd be cashing your paycheque with a smile every month and keep believing you're worth it.

Also Erickson is no better, probably worse.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

Not their fault they have 40-something point forward Sutter on their line for a good chunk of this season (even strength and/or power play).

 

Not to say Sutter is useless (he is an adequate 3C - *IF* he's used that way).

 

They're not at their stage in their career where they can carry a bottom six forward.

[ReggieBush]

11 minutes ago, Rocksterh8 said:

Knowing Jim, he'll re-sign them until they're 40 for another stupid amount of money.

LMAO

[on the cycle]

Well...they are 36, and they way overproduced for their $6.1M deals.

Burrows got the same treatment to retroactively repay him for his $2.1M deal.

[Nuxfanabroad]

Agree with a lot of what the OP has stated. Sedins should have suggested playing on different lines, as well. & it's not just their declining point production, their line's defensive ineptitude(mostly turtle gear-issue), more than offsets their off-contributions.

 

The contract was 1 mill too much(per yr), and/or a yr too long.

 

So it becomes an issue of what amount of negative fan statements are acceptable, or simply considered constructive criticism, when we factor in the dozen(or so) excellent yrs Van fans received? We're all cognizant now, & measured in our analysis.

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

2 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Not their fault they have 40-something forward Sutter on their line for a good chunk of this season (even strength and/or power play).

Sutter's only 27 IIRC.

 

Unless you're talking about his CF%. Or, as a negative, his plus/minus projected to the end of the season. In those cases, "40-something" is in the ballpark.  

[NewbieCanuckFan]

Just now, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

Sutter's only 27 IIRC.

 

Unless you're talking about his CF%. Or, as a negative, his plus/minus projected to the end of the season. In those cases, "40-something" is in the ballpark.  

I've edited my post - I was talking about his point totals...40 points would actually represent his career high (many years ago)....

 

He is no way a top six forward - not enough offensive ability (good shot I'll give him that) unless he's carried by his linemates.

[stonecoldstevebernier]

Salaries have been inflating for years, you can say the same about a very sizable portion of players who earn around $7m or more per year. Since people love referring back to 2011, Krejci and Bergeron both make more than the Sedins and are producing less than them at five years younger. (You could say that Bergeron's defensive play makes him more valuable but the guy has 10 points this year and he's earning almost $9 million.)

People are so vague about what first line scoring means. Do you mean a point per game pace? There are only eight of those in the league right now. If you mean that they should both be in the top 90 in scoring (3 first liners x 30 teams), then they are, although with two more or less points they could be in a wildly different position with how condensed the scoring race is now. They're 36 years old, obviously the more time passes the more their skills will deteriorate and their contracts will look bad. That's going to happen with all of these long, big money contracts that are being signed by the time the players are in their late 30s.

 

The bigger problem is the lack of a succession plan developed by management, so fans still target the Sedins for criticism because there's nobody else capable of carrying the torch. If the Sedins were producing at the same pace, but the team had drafted better and was well stocked with young forwards primed to take over when the Sedins retire, nobody would care if they were on pace for 50 point years. But the spotlight is still on them because those prospects aren't here yet.

[bingofan]

7 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Not their fault they have 40-something point forward Sutter on their line for a good chunk of this season (even strength and/or power play).

 

Not to say Sutter is useless (he is an adequate 3C - *IF* he's used that way).

 

They're not at their stage in their career where they can carry a bottom six forward.

 

It's important to treat them as two players. They have each other as linemates. They used to be able to make it work with any linemate. Not anymore - they have gotten old and that's fine and to be expected. But again, I wish they would just call themselves out once in a while. They are the leaders after all.

[Jasmijn Meeuwissen]

The main issue is Willie's coaching strategies. But there's no way the Sedins are going to call Willie out. That would just be unclassy; despite it being the reality of the situation. It's not entirely the Sedins' fault they're not getting as many chances. AV was more structured and consistent. He knew which role each player needed to play. Willie is just inexperienced and some blame should be put on him, not the Sedins. They've done so much for the Canucks that it would just be disrespectful to call them out just because their stats are slightly declining. It would be like benching Jagr the whole game on the night he would have passed Messier in points.

[Shaodin]

I'm pretty sure that words coming out of their mouth isnt going to make the team any better, who cares what they say. I wouldnt feel better about losing regardless of what they say after. Love the Sedin's. They are passed their prime, not their fault theyre getting older. Can't really fault them for getting paid either.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Shaodin said:

I'm pretty sure that words coming out of their mouth isnt going to make the team any better, who cares what they say. I wouldnt feel better about losing regardless of what they say after. Love the Sedin's. They are passed their prime, not their fault theyre getting older. Can't really fault them for getting paid either.

Is it time to fold our hand and move them?