the Sedins - time to take more ownership of the situation?

[xRussianrocket]

The sedins have to take more ownership of the situation?  I dont know what u expect them to say, uh we are on one of the worst teams weve been on since being in vancouver?  Honest enough?  Are they declining a bit of course but they still are our top line still producing.  I think we should re-sign them 2 years whatever contract they want.  They know the situation they know its a rebuild with not much coming in support soon.  

 

You think our team is tragic now, take the sedins off the roster and were a legit minor league team.  Give them credit for sticking with us during our lows and buying time for our management who is no where near close to icing a competitive team.  

[Drewismyname]

They performed when given the fuel to produce (linemates). Without a supporting cast why sacrafice your well being to win esp with those contracts. They were served with what happens when this team pushes the boundaries and theyv had enough. Maybe the next generation does it.

[Baggins]

9 hours ago, Bur14Kes17 said:

Creates an account and in his very first post, he rips on the Sedins 

 

 

 

[xRussianrocket]

9 hours ago, Alflives said:

They are almost done their contracts.  Hopefully, JB can do a Burke and draft two similarly elite forwards, do our team can be one a top club again.  

 

Maybe Eriksson has a brother we can sign

 

sedins replaced.

 

lol

[Rocksterh8]

6 hours ago, Hectic said:

Based on what? When has he done anything like this ever?

 

He signed Erickson for 6 years.... try and keep up with the team.

[Rocksterh8]

5 hours ago, BowtieCanuck said:

If two players who have done nothing but give it their all for this club is the reason your team is crashing, then they're not the problem you should be worried about. Montreal understood this very clearly last season and they made the right moves in order to take the heat of their most contributing player.


The Sedins could score one goal a season for the rest of their careers here and they would deserve nothing but respect from the fanbase. I'm not surprised that isn't the case, the general fanbase in Vancouver is embarassing and the FANBASE deserves all the crap they get from other teams fans for crap like this.

 

You have to be kidding! Since when is a player worth more than the team? So you think fans are supposed to buy tickets to watch a team lose just so some players can be happy playing on a team, making a ton of money even if they can't play anymore? Wow.. .just Wow... some people have no reason.

 

Your bowtie is too tight, cutting off your oxygen.

[Googlie]

10 hours ago, Toews said:

They took a discount to stay in Vancouver when Burke would have easily thrown more money at their feet. The last thing we should be complaining about is how much the Sedins are paid when they won Hart/Art Ross trophies while on ridiculously cheap contracts. And its not like their contracts are costing this team, the cap situation is hardly dire. All they could do with 14M is sign a couple of Erikssons.

 

Or 14 Vrbatas

[komodo0921]

The Sedins can still be effective players on the Canucks roster. Drop their ATOI down to third line minutes. They cannot play 18-20 minutes a game anymore and be effective. They burn out too fast. 12-14 effective minutes on a great third line allows the youth their chance to shine and maximizes line potential. Both Baer and Bo are primed to take over top line minutes until, at least, the end of the season. 

At the end of the day, I place the responsibility on WD's decision to keep them as #1 and refusing to recognize that they are no longer the 100 point guys they were 7 seasons ago and that those guys are never coming back, no matter who you put with them. He needs to re-evaluate what he has and make the necessary adjustments to allow the door to open for the youth. I don't think it turns this team into playoff contenders immediately, but it will turn this team in the right direction for future success. Who knows? Maybe, with a couple tweaks to the line up, Daniel and Henrik get another run in the playoffs before retirement.

[Bovechkin]

15 hours ago, bingofan said:

 

I agree, but Toews and Kopitar could probably still hit and kill penalties at 36. And I doubt they would attribute their decline in production to the decline in the quality of players surrounding them. Yes, payers decline, and for sure at some point will produce less than what they are being paid for. I am just disappointed that they seem to refuse to acknowledge that (at least in public), and instead seem to deflect the responsibility onto other players making way less money. That's not really showing a lot of leadership in my opinion.

I think that's really the point. It's not about the Sedins being overpaid for their current production, they are basically getting a delayed payday from past performance, but rather that they never publicly take ownership of the team's offensive and PP struggles . I think this is what OP was getting at.

[Alflives]

35 minutes ago, komodo0921 said:

The Sedins can still be effective players on the Canucks roster. Drop their ATOI down to third line minutes. They cannot play 18-20 minutes a game anymore and be effective. They burn out too fast. 12-14 effective minutes on a great third line allows the youth their chance to shine and maximizes line potential. Both Baer and Bo are primed to take over top line minutes until, at least, the end of the season. 

At the end of the day, I place the responsibility on WD's decision to keep them as #1 and refusing to recognize that they are no longer the 100 point guys they were 7 seasons ago and that those guys are never coming back, no matter who you put with them. He needs to re-evaluate what he has and make the necessary adjustments to allow the door to open for the youth. I don't think it turns this team into playoff contenders immediately, but it will turn this team in the right direction for future success. Who knows? Maybe, with a couple tweaks to the line up, Daniel and Henrik get another run in the playoffs before retirement.

JB, TL, and the owner needs to accept the Sedins are done too, and allow our team to properly rebuild.

[bingofan]

16 hours ago, stonecoldstevebernier said:

Salaries have been inflating for years, you can say the same about a very sizable portion of players who earn around $7m or more per year. Since people love referring back to 2011, Krejci and Bergeron both make more than the Sedins and are producing less than them at five years younger. (You could say that Bergeron's defensive play makes him more valuable but the guy has 10 points this year and he's earning almost $9 million.)

People are so vague about what first line scoring means. Do you mean a point per game pace? There are only eight of those in the league right now. If you mean that they should both be in the top 90 in scoring (3 first liners x 30 teams), then they are, although with two more or less points they could be in a wildly different position with how condensed the scoring race is now. They're 36 years old, obviously the more time passes the more their skills will deteriorate and their contracts will look bad. That's going to happen with all of these long, big money contracts that are being signed by the time the players are in their late 30s.

 

The bigger problem is the lack of a succession plan developed by management, so fans still target the Sedins for criticism because there's nobody else capable of carrying the torch. If the Sedins were producing at the same pace, but the team had drafted better and was well stocked with young forwards primed to take over when the Sedins retire, nobody would care if they were on pace for 50 point years. But the spotlight is still on them because those prospects aren't here yet.

 

I'm not sure you see what I am getting at. At any given time, I'm sure one can always find at least one highly-paid player who is producing less than the Sedin's. But I'm not complaining solely about the Sedin's production relative to their salaries. Regardless of what "first line scoring" really means - producing 50-60 pts per season, with one of the worst PP's in the league, for two players making $7 million while playing on the same line (I don't think that gets emphasized enough) and getting #1 PP time, is not enough for a team to be successful, especially considering that they do not hit or kill penalties.

 

The main point: it certainly does not give them the right to say that they are not able to play the way they used to because our defensemen aren't as good as they were in seasons past. And it doesn't give them the right to say they want others to step up offensively. It's when they say things like this that it really bothers me. Before you publicly hold others accountable, you have to publicly hold yourself accountable, especially when you are the leaders and the highest-paid players on the team. Succession plan or not, I don't think they have a right to say things like that. 

 

I see Gudbranson, Sbisa, Edler etc. get criticized all the time for committing turnovers, for being too slow, or for not making good first passes. So why is it not okay to acknowledge the Sedin's lack of production, and to dislike some things they say about their teammates, and not publicly taking ownership of our poor offense? I get this sense that, for some, the Sedin's are beyond reproach, that looking objectively at their performance and at the things they say is somehow unacceptable. I read some people saying that it doesn't matter if they score 1 goal per year, or that we should sign them to 2 years for whatever they want. Is this really the culture you want for the Canucks? I am perplexed by this mentality - I made an account here to make this post because this lack of objectivity when it comes to the Sedin's really bothers me. Thank you for reading and for all your thoughtful responses.

[The Colt 45s]

Sedins produced when we had a legitimate second line.  The other team's first D pairing was split between The Sedins and Burrows, and Kesler, Higgins, and Hansen. This balanced attack enabled the Canucks to take advantage of the situation.  No disrespect for Daniel and Henrik, but we are not there anymore. We just do not have that kind of depth.

[Frail Granny]

The Sedin's aren't producing because THEY'RE OLD! That's it. They're a half step slower, and a little too foggy between the ears. They lose the majority of their board battles now, which renders their patented cycle game mostly ineffective. I credit them for not taking HGH or TRT like some current over the hill athletes are using, because if they were on it you would notice. 

[xRussianrocket]

19 minutes ago, Frail Granny said:

The Sedin's aren't producing because THEY'RE OLD! That's it. They're a half step slower, and a little too foggy between the ears. They lose the majority of their board battles now, which renders their patented cycle game mostly ineffective. I credit them for not taking HGH or TRT like some current over the hill athletes are using, because if they were on it you would notice. 

 

Wrong if these guys went to a talented team with skilled defencemen not always playing against the oppositions best defensive lines. A supporting cast.  They would be 70-80 point players again.

 

They lost a step?  Uh they never had a step to lose they have always been slow. They play a game of smarts. Trust me they are not getting more stupid as the years go on. 

 

Unfortunatly the sedins, WD or even JB is not the reason we suck right now.  It took years to become this abysmal and dire. It will take years to fix.

 

This trade the sedins talk, and we gotta fire Willie talk, and JB cant draft if he took this guy or that guy instead we would be better talk has got to end. The truth is it wouldnt have made a difference.

 

 

 

 

[Frail Granny]

1 hour ago, xRussianrocket said:

 

Wrong if these guys went to a talented team with skilled defencemen not always playing against the oppositions best defensive lines. A supporting cast.  They would be 70-80 point players again.

 

They lost a step?  Uh they never had a step to lose they have always been slow. They play a game of smarts. Trust me they are not getting more stupid as the years go on. 

 

Unfortunatly the sedins, WD or even JB is not the reason we suck right now.  It took years to become this abysmal and dire. It will take years to fix.

 

This trade the sedins talk, and we gotta fire Willie talk, and JB cant draft if he took this guy or that guy instead we would be better talk has got to end. The truth is it wouldnt have made a difference.

 

 

 

 

As slow as they were, they are even slower now. They're Artem Chubarov slow now. Watch some hi-lights of the art ross seasons, and find a board battle where they didn't come up with the puck. It's either they've deteriorated, or everyone else just got a little better. Look at any great athlete from any sport, and you'll see that Father Time shows up suddenly for them. 

[stonecoldstevebernier]

2 hours ago, bingofan said:

 

I'm not sure you see what I am getting at. At any given time, I'm sure one can always find at least one highly-paid player who is producing less than the Sedin's. But I'm not complaining solely about the Sedin's production relative to their salaries. Regardless of what "first line scoring" really means - producing 50-60 pts per season, with one of the worst PP's in the league, for two players making $7 million while playing on the same line (I don't think that gets emphasized enough) and getting #1 PP time, is not enough for a team to be successful, especially considering that they do not hit or kill penalties.

 

The main point: it certainly does not give them the right to say that they are not able to play the way they used to because our defensemen aren't as good as they were in seasons past. And it doesn't give them the right to say they want others to step up offensively. It's when they say things like this that it really bothers me. Before you publicly hold others accountable, you have to publicly hold yourself accountable, especially when you are the leaders and the highest-paid players on the team. Succession plan or not, I don't think they have a right to say things like that. 

 

I see Gudbranson, Sbisa, Edler etc. get criticized all the time for committing turnovers, for being too slow, or for not making good first passes. So why is it not okay to acknowledge the Sedin's lack of production, and to dislike some things they say about their teammates, and not publicly taking ownership of our poor offense? I get this sense that, for some, the Sedin's are beyond reproach, that looking objectively at their performance and at the things they say is somehow unacceptable. I read some people saying that it doesn't matter if they score 1 goal per year, or that we should sign them to 2 years for whatever they want. Is this really the culture you want for the Canucks? I am perplexed by this mentality - I made an account here to make this post because this lack of objectivity when it comes to the Sedin's really bothers me. Thank you for reading and for all your thoughtful responses.

Okay, so lets get to your main point then. Wouldn't you agree that not only our defensemen, but our team around the Sedins aren't as good as in seasons past? I think that's pretty fair. At their peak, the Sedins had Ehrhoff, Kesler, and Salo on the PP with them, along with secondary scoring throughout the lineup. Guys like Edler, Burrows, Bieksa, Hamhuis, Samuelsson, etc were all in their prime as well. Which is how you build good teams - you surround your best players with other good players, you don't expect them to carry the responsibility on their own. You don't think removing all those players took an effect on the team, and the Sedins' production?

Of course, that's not the only reason. The other reason is time. The Sedins are not the players they were five years ago. Combine that with a weaker team and its not a recipe for success, and no wonder they are where they are. What are they supposed to say to take ownership? That as fading stars they should be doing more to lead a poorly managed team that refuses to properly rebuild?

And they have a responsibility to hold others accountable; that's part of being leaders. Saying your teammates have to contribute more and step up offensively is the right message to send to your younger players. Its better than saying "oh yeah, you guys are doing fine, don't change anything, it's all on us". That won't help anybody improve. And we only get to hear what they choose to say publicly - there's no way of knowing what they say privately to their teammates, because certain things are said behind closed doors and not for reporters to hear.  So they keep most of their statements boring and vanilla, which isn't as fun, and frustrating at times.

But the main reason why I think there's little point in criticizing the Sedins is that they aren't the future of this team. Criticism is intended with the hope that players will improve or change - the Sedins aren't going to be doing that, and they should be the last thing we're concerned about. My bigger concern is the kind of team we'll have when they retire, and I don't really see what anyone has to gain out of targeting the Sedins at this point in their careers. That's probably why you find so many people defend them. Its not because we think they're doing great.

 

What this reminds me of is when Naslund was on his way out; this was back in the days when I used to actually listen to post-game radio shows. So many of the calls were usually about how terrible he was, how he was washed up, how he needed to do more to contribute to the team. If you look at his numbers at the end, they're pretty similar to what the Sedins have been doing lately. But when Naslund left (with Bertuzzi already gone before him), the Sedins had already surpassed him as first line players. And now that the Sedins are almost done here, there's nobody doing the same for them. There's nobody breaking through and forcing them out the door, so until that happens, they'll still be relied on more than they need to be.

I encourage you to keep posting though, and not to let the opinions of others deter you from doing so. I appreciate topics that make me think. If this forum was just a bunch of people agreeing and getting along, there would be no point to it.

[bingofan]

16 minutes ago, stonecoldstevebernier said:

Okay, so lets get to your main point then. Wouldn't you agree that not only our defensemen, but our team around the Sedins aren't as good as in seasons past? I think that's pretty fair. At their peak, the Sedins had Ehrhoff, Kesler, and Salo on the PP with them, along with secondary scoring throughout the lineup. Guys like Edler, Burrows, Bieksa, Hamhuis, Samuelsson, etc were all in their prime as well. Which is how you build good teams - you surround your best players with other good players, you don't expect them to carry the responsibility on their own. You don't think removing all those players took an effect on the team, and the Sedins' production?

Of course, that's not the only reason. The other reason is time. The Sedins are not the players they were five years ago. Combine that with a weaker team and its not a recipe for success, and no wonder they are where they are. What are they supposed to say to take ownership? That as fading stars they should be doing more to lead a poorly managed team that refuses to properly rebuild?

And they have a responsibility to hold others accountable; that's part of being leaders. Saying your teammates have to contribute more and step up offensively is the right message to send to your younger players. Its better than saying "oh yeah, you guys are doing fine, don't change anything, it's all on us". That won't help anybody improve. And we only get to hear what they choose to say publicly - there's no way of knowing what they say privately to their teammates, because certain things are said behind closed doors and not for reporters to hear.  So they keep most of their statements boring and vanilla, which isn't as fun, and frustrating at times.

But the main reason why I think there's little point in criticizing the Sedins is that they aren't the future of this team. Criticism is intended with the hope that players will improve or change - the Sedins aren't going to be doing that, and they should be the last thing we're concerned about. My bigger concern is the kind of team we'll have when they retire, and I don't really see what anyone has to gain out of targeting the Sedins at this point in their careers. That's probably why you find so many people defend them. Its not because we think they're doing great.

 

What this reminds me of is when Naslund was on his way out; this was back in the days when I used to actually listen to post-game radio shows. So many of the calls were usually about how terrible he was, how he was washed up, how he needed to do more to contribute to the team. If you look at his numbers at the end, they're pretty similar to what the Sedins have been doing lately. But when Naslund left (with Bertuzzi already gone before him), the Sedins had already surpassed him as first line players. And now that the Sedins are almost done here, there's nobody doing the same for them. There's nobody breaking through and forcing them out the door, so until that happens, they'll still be relied on more than they need to be.

I encourage you to keep posting though, and not to let the opinions of others deter you from doing so. I appreciate topics that make me think. If this forum was just a bunch of people agreeing and getting along, there would be no point to it.

 

That may well be one of the reasons for their decline in production, but that doesn't mean that the Sedin's need to call it out publicly. For example, I look at how hard Sbisa plays and how he always sticks up for his teammates - for the Sedin's to publicly attribute their own decline in play to poorer defensemen just seems overly harsh. Similarly with players like Stecher, Hutton, and Tryamkin, who are probably working like crazy just to make it as NHL players. As you say - it's not the only reason, but it's the only reason that they seem to acknowledge. That's my issue.

 

And you're right - I have no idea what they say behind closed doors, so that is why I emphasize publicly taking ownership. But what they say publicly is important, because they can direct where the spotlight shines. If they say we need secondary scoring, then that's what people will think. And if they say we have weaker defensemen, people will focus on that. Again, I think leaders should be taking the heat off their teammates publicly - they can say things behind closed doors to push them and hold them accountable, but that's where it should remain. Leaders for sure should be the first ones to publicly own up to their own poor performance, especially given their salaries and the offensive opportunities they are afforded. And I'm not criticizing their play so much as the kind of leadership they are displaying. The latter does matter for the team down the road in terms of how our young players develop and learn to lead.

 

Naslund left the team in 2008. The Sedin's had already been in the league for around 8 years at that point. I think that's different - our young players, through no fault of their own, simply haven't had the time and opportunity to develop offensively. Three or four years into their careers, the Sedin's were playing behind Naslund/Bertuzzi at their peaks. There were years there where they were not relied upon to be primary scorers. I remember Brian Burke vehemently defending them when the fans/media got on them. Their veteran teammates did the same for them both on and off the ice. That's the way it should be. The way the Sedin's are leading now, it does not appear that they are providing our young players the same sheltering from public opinion that they were afforded when they themselves were young. 

 

 

 

[Gnarcore]

The Sedins should have been 2nd line players by now.  It isn't on them that management has not addressed this effectively....although I see no way Gillis nor Benning could have. We don't win lotteries. 

[Alflives]

7 minutes ago, bingofan said:

 

That may well be one of the reasons for their decline in production, but that doesn't mean that the Sedin's need to call it out publicly. For example, I look at how hard Sbisa plays and how he always sticks up for his teammates - for the Sedin's to publicly attribute their own decline in play to poorer defensemen just seems overly harsh. Similarly with players like Stecher, Hutton, and Tryamkin, who are probably working like crazy just to make it as NHL players. As you say - it's not the only reason, but it's the only reason that they seem to acknowledge. That's my issue.

 

And you're right - I have no idea what they say behind closed doors, so that is why I emphasize publicly taking ownership. But what they say publicly is important, because they can direct where the spotlight shines. If they say we need secondary scoring, then that's what people will think. And if they say we have weaker defensemen, people will focus on that. Again, I think leaders should be taking the heat off their teammates publicly - they can say things behind closed doors to push them and hold them accountable, but that's where it should remain. Leaders for sure should be the first ones to publicly own up to their own poor performance, especially given their salaries and the offensive opportunities they are afforded. And I'm not criticizing their play so much as the kind of leadership they are displaying. The latter does matter for the team down the road in terms of how our young players develop and learn to lead.

 

Naslund left the team in 2008. The Sedin's had already been in the league for around 8 years at that point. I think that's different - our young players, through no fault of their own, simply haven't had the time and opportunity to develop offensively. Three or four years into their careers, the Sedin's were playing behind Naslund/Bertuzzi at their peaks. There were years there where they were not relied upon to be primary scorers. I remember Brian Burke vehemently defending them when the fans/media got on them. Their veteran teammates did the same for them both on and off the ice. That's the way it should be. The way the Sedin's are leading now, it does not appear that they are providing our young players the same sheltering from public opinion that they were afforded when they themselves were young. 

 

 

 

Didn't the Twins (Henrik?) call out Virtanen publicly last season?

[igorwasgreat]

4 hours ago, Gnarcore said:

The Sedins should have been 2nd line players by now.  It isn't on them that management has not addressed this effectively....although I see no way Gillis nor Benning could have. We don't win lotteries. 

or draft particularly well , at least before Benning.