Bieksa, and D-men who have been traded (Discussion)

[Dr. Crossbar]

Strictly from a "one that got away" standpoint, I've always viewed Ehrhoff's departure as the start of our decline from 2011-12 onward ... kind of like the first card being removed in a house of cards that would eventually fall. 

 

Not a straight up trade but we had to trade his negotiating rights.

 

I'm still frustrated that we couldn't just reload with Ehrhoff and take another run, which Ehrhoff himself prevented when a fair deal was on the table. The window of opportunity was that moment in time.

 

Still frustrated by that one whenever I think about it.

 

As for straight trades, most I can think of fall into the context of circumstances at the time. I didn't want to see Aucoin go, but we were still suffering goaltending woes. Aucoin's numbers had dropped so I understand why we got Cloutier. 

 

Totally agree with the sentiments about Reinhardt. Can totally remember the excitement of watching him play. Too bad about his back. He was definitely one of the most talented D-men of his time. Still kinda hard to believe he was a Canuck.

 

[Father Ryan]

1 hour ago, coolboarder said:

This expansion draft, we better not regret losing one good D to have a better career with other team, Sbisa, Gud, Tanev, and Edler.  We better pick right one without any regret.   My vote goes to Edler, his time is up.   Now is the time to debate the current D.  Whatever happened in the past stays in the past, we need to move on and make sure that this one wouldn't be filled with regret.  It sucks that the NHL rules only protect 3 D in that it's difficult to protect them all.   We need to cut the least player for us right now and that's Edler, imo.   Edler could rebound and have a better career but I doubt it due to his history of back injury and will not be the player he once was.   So that is my pick.   Unless Sbisa regressed hard from now to end of the season, Edler is the one.  

Totally agree with this. If I was the GM (hah!) I would be looking between Edler and Sbisa, and figuring out which one we could MOST afford to lose. Sbisa seems to have come around yet a little more this year, and is definitely a serviceable 5-6 Dman. His salary, while a little too much, is not overly expensive. Edler, somewhat due to age and probably a little more due to injuries (especially his back), is regressing. He is no longer a true #1 Dman (if he ever was), and only a #2 is spurts, not consistently. His salary, then, is an overpayment. Now...if he can be exposed to the expansion draft (unsure about this, does a NTC allow?), that would be my pick, along with Biega. In that scenario, I doubt either one would be taken (Edler too expensive, Biega is lower in talent than what will be exposed). 3 Dmen to protect - Tanev, Guddy and Sbisa (no need for protection for Hutton, Stetcher or Tryamkin).

 

Quick question for those who know the ins/outs of the expansion draft. Would Pedan be exposed?

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

Strictly from a "one that got away" standpoint, I've always viewed Ehrhoff's departure as the start of our decline from 2012 onward ... kind of like the first card being removed in a house of cards that would eventually fall. 

 

Not a straight up trade but we had to trade his negotiating rights.

 

I'm still frustrated that we couldn't just reload with Ehrhoff and take another run, which Ehrhoff himself prevented when a fair deal was on the table. The window of opportunity was that moment in time.

Agreed with much of this. And it's kind of the moment where things got away from MG.

 

But I don't necessarily put the blame on Ehrhoff. I think it was a mistake for MG to take the hard line that Bieksa's contract represented an internal cap on defensemen salaries. Ehrhoff was basically given an ultimatum to either accept an identical deal (at $4.6 million AAV) or move on.

 

It wasn't necessarily a bad offer but I think it was still a fair amount below market value. And the inescapable implication was that Ehrhoff and Bieksa were equal value players, which I don't think was accurate (especially at the time).

 

This was an assessment failure on Gillis's part IMO, both in terms of Ehrhoff's market value as an individual player (at the time) and his team value as the "straw that stirred the drink" on offense and on the production of key players like the twins.

 

Ehrhoff and his agent felt that he deserved more than Bieksa. And they were correct IMO. MG didn't need to get crazy and offer something like the Buffalo deal. More like the $5 million AAV Edler got a couple years later would have been sufficient (and likely acceptable on a very reasonable term).

 

And interviews with Ehrhoff after the fact pretty much affirmed that he ended up leaving over a few 100K AAV more than he was offered (and would have stayed on a comparatively short term compared to the idiotic deal Buffalo gave him).

 

Hard to know if keeping Ehrhoff would have dramatically changed our playoffs fates. Injuries to key players (Daniel), early exits to Cup winners (King 2012), and highly controversial officiating (Sharks 2013) probably would have eliminated the team with or without Ehrhoff in the lineup in 2012 or 2013. But it still would have been nice to see what we might have done if we kept the group intact (and kept playing the same way).

[ilduce39]

I agree with the Willie Mitchell sentiment even though it wasn't a trade.  At the time, I didn't see him as being a big part of the team - an obvious oversight.

 

It's also a big reason why I'm willing to give Guddy a lot of rope to find his legs with us.  "Advanced stats" be damned - a physical, vocal leader on the back end is a huge asset.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Even when we got him (when he gas tank was pretty much empty) - he was STILL effective enough to almost carry us for a season (was injured for much of the other time).  That trade almost came to bite the Flames in the butt as we almost upset them in the post-season (The season was actually the one where the Flames won the Cup).

 

PS:  we should've taken that series because Otto scored that OT series clinching goal when he clearly kicked it in!

Yes!!!  Video reply would have disallowed it and Vernon was probably crapping his pants by then making miracle glove saves repeatedly...Google glove saves Vernon and they are bound to come up.  Nobody else challenged the Flames like we did...And that team was considered one of the greatest ever..Just a sick line-up.  Probably the second best series or even the best series ever.  Otto admits it might not have counted and how incredible an opponent we were in that series...He was so big eventually Linden was moved to center to counter him.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Reinhart and Babych are the two most talented D-men we've had by a decent margin.  But Reinhart's body was on the way out and Babych was on the back nine of his career when he got him (still a very good top-four D-man at the time).

 

Reinhart was like Tim Kerr...really had a shot at being one of the greats but his body couldn't hold up.

I loved Babych and what he brought to the team.. Diduck and Babych made a fearsome duo both tough as nails good defensively and got their points.  I remember Probert lining up Babych behind our net and how he went flying ass over tea kettle, literally did a somersault over Babych when he dug in just before the hit.  Also his forearms were so big his jersey would get stuck on them...When he held on nobody could break his hold.  

[Kevin Biestra]

3 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I loved Babych and what he brought to the team.. Diduck and Babych made a fearsome duo both tough as nails good defensively and got their points.  I remember Probert lining up Babych behind our net and how he went flying ass over tea kettle, literally did a somersault over Babych when he dug in just before the hit.  Also his forearms were so big his jersey would get stuck on them...When he held on nobody could break his hold.  

 

Babych had otherworldly strength.  People talk now about the Sedins' fitness but Babych was something else.  He used to win the NHL armwrestling tournament if I remember correctly.

[IBatch]

22 minutes ago, Father Ryan said:

Totally agree with this. If I was the GM (hah!) I would be looking between Edler and Sbisa, and figuring out which one we could MOST afford to lose. Sbisa seems to have come around yet a little more this year, and is definitely a serviceable 5-6 Dman. His salary, while a little too much, is not overly expensive. Edler, somewhat due to age and probably a little more due to injuries (especially his back), is regressing. He is no longer a true #1 Dman (if he ever was), and only a #2 is spurts, not consistently. His salary, then, is an overpayment. Now...if he can be exposed to the expansion draft (unsure about this, does a NTC allow?), that would be my pick, along with Biega. In that scenario, I doubt either one would be taken (Edler too expensive, Biega is lower in talent than what will be exposed). 3 Dmen to protect - Tanev, Guddy and Sbisa (no need for protection for Hutton, Stetcher or Tryamkin).

 

Quick question for those who know the ins/outs of the expansion draft. Would Pedan be exposed?

The Hockey News recently did a mock draft for Vegas and Pedan was their pick...Don't know why but that should answer your question.

[IBatch]

2 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Babych had otherworldly strength.  People talk now about the Sedins' fitness but Babych was something else.  He used to win the NHL armwrestling tournament if I remember correctly.

He was a strong sob.  Cleared the net like swatting flies when required and hit hard...And was next to impossible to move infront of the opponent's net when he roamed. But his stache was even better.

[lmm]

Daley for me was almost as bad as the Neeley deal, he played some all star games for Philli. But he has already been mentioned.

Babych also mentioned but I don't even remember what we got for him. Played 400 games in Winnipeg, 400 in van and 400 in Philli.

And Korab but he wanted out because in the 70s Vancouver was considered a backwater town

The early 70s were bad too.

Gary Doak won a cup in Boston and played many games for them but was traded for Dave Balon who was stricken with MS. I guess there was no pre-trade physical back then.

Pat Quinn was exposed in the expansion draft, and claimed by Atlanta, while the Canucks protected players lost immediately to the WHA, oops

The 70s might not have looked so bad with Quinn, Doak and Daley on the back end.

[Googlie]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

 

 

And the salary added to already a good situation with Burrows Miller up this year and the Sedins the next... Benning will be flush with cap space to help with the rebuild.

 

Unless Luongo retires early

[Father Ryan]

14 minutes ago, IBatch said:

The Hockey News recently did a mock draft for Vegas and Pedan was their pick...Don't know why but that should answer your question.

It does, and thank you. Not terribly surprised...6'5" and 210+lbs has its own quality, along with his known speed. Just wonder what lies between the ears...

[Sergei Shirokov]

I thought we did really well for getting 2nd round picks for Bieksa and Garrison. Bieksa had his best years as a canuck, and we were able to get assets out of him when he was on the decline. As for Willie Mitchell, He probably would have been a welcome prescence in 2011, but we were transitioning to an all out attack team. We needed good skating defensemen. Plus we had a lot of defensemen back in 2011. Edler, Ehrhoff, Salo, Bieksa, Hamhuis, Ballard, and a rising Tanev.

 

The defensemen we really missed though.... Sami Salo. We lost Ehrhoff and Mitchell, and went on two win president's trophy anyway. Salo was probably one of the most underrated defensemen in Canucks history. We seemed to never really recovered after losing him. 

 

[lmm]

21 minutes ago, IBatch said:

The Hockey News recently did a mock draft for Vegas and Pedan was their pick...Don't know why but that should answer your question.

I could see Vegas picking a guy for their AHL team by the time they pick a Canuck, Ceyote and Avalanch, because they will have picked the 25 players they expect to make their NHL team by then.

 You never know though those teams might pick better players than they lose on the waiver wire next October.

[Davathor]

5 hours ago, Googlie said:

As we get ready for another KB visit,  I got to wondering how many defensemen have we traded who went on to outperform after the trade as compared to their Canucks record.

 

The only ones I can think of are Adrian Aucoin (all-star selection after trade) and Bret Hedican (Stanley Cup)

 

Some big names we traded were past prime, but still had decent post-Canuck seasons (such as Ohlund or Jovo) but I don't think we got burned by any like we did when trading forwards such as Neely, or, to a lesser extent, Grabner.

 

Current ones out there who might come back to haunt us, after Bieksa, include Weber and Clendenning, Bartowski and maybe Sanguinetti.

 

I just hope we don't trade Edler, Tanev or Sbisa - they do have the potential to haunt us in the future.

 

Who in your opinion is the best defenseman we let get away (excluding draft picks we should, in retrospect, have made)?

 

 

Bieksa was heart and soul Canucks - he might not be the most skilled but I miss him the most. Played hard, stuck up for teammates, best interviews...

 

Edler is the best defenceman we should have let get away. Dudes so overvalued around here and he's so average it's not even funny. 6'3 Swedish wimp.

 

Your list of currents that may come back to bite us are all career #6-7 defenceman, if they manage to stay in the NHL that is.

[Ghostsof1915]

6 hours ago, Googlie said:

As we get ready for another KB visit,  I got to wondering how many defensemen have we traded who went on to outperform after the trade as compared to their Canucks record.

 

The only ones I can think of are Adrian Aucoin (all-star selection after trade) and Bret Hedican (Stanley Cup)

 

Some big names we traded were past prime, but still had decent post-Canuck seasons (such as Ohlund or Jovo) but I don't think we got burned by any like we did when trading forwards such as Neely, or, to a lesser extent, Grabner.

 

Current ones out there who might come back to haunt us, after Bieksa, include Weber and Clendenning, Bartowski and maybe Sanguinetti.

 

I just hope we don't trade Edler, Tanev or Sbisa - they do have the potential to haunt us in the future.

 

Who in your opinion is the best defenseman we let get away (excluding draft picks we should, in retrospect, have made)?

 

 

Are you Desi? 

 

2016-17

Kloten HC

Swiss-A

27

6

10

16

18

11

 

He's not even in the minors he's playing in the Swiss league. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

48 minutes ago, IBatch said:

 I remember Probert lining up Babych behind our net and how he went flying ass over tea kettle, literally did a somersault over Babych when he dug in just before the hit.  Also his forearms were so big his jersey would get stuck on them...When he held on nobody could break his hold.  

OT - I remember Probert's epic fights with Craig Coxe.  Coxe wore Probert (when he was still in his prime) down by banging his head against Propert's fists.  Man, could Coxe take a punch.  Garth Butcher was like that too (not a great fighter but always answered the bell).

[IBatch]

28 minutes ago, lmm said:

I could see Vegas picking a guy for their AHL team by the time they pick a Canuck, Ceyote and Avalanch, because they will have picked the 25 players they expect to make their NHL team by then.

 You never know though those teams might pick better players than they lose on the waiver wire next October.

The team they picked looked awfully hard to play against physically with modest scoring and goaltending.  

[IBatch]

11 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

OT - I remember Probert's epic fights with Craig Coxe.  Coxe wore Probert (when he was still in his prime) down by banging his head against Propert's fists.  Man, could Coxe take a punch.  Garth Butcher was like that too (not a great fighter but always answered the bell).

Theirs two Coxe Probert fights that are the highest ranked ever at hockeyfights.com in one of them Coxe gave as well as he took..Just unbelievable tough.  Haymaker s connecting and both men taking it like the champs they were.  

[terrible.dee]

6 hours ago, Father Ryan said:

I'm not going to even begin to profess knowledge of all the Dmen traded from the 'Nucks, but a recent one that we let go (free agency) that likely would have made a BIG impact on the team, especially in the '11 run, was Willie Mitchell. His presence could have really stabilized the back end, even more likely that Rome wouldn't have needed to make that big hit that seemed to wake up the Bruins, and in all likelihood was a fairly large factor in us not getting the Cup that year. Instead, he goes to LA, helped to stabilize their back end, and two Cups later, we're left to ponder the "woulda, shoulda, coulda" of letting Willie M go.

 

 

Oh come on!

 

this is utter fantasy, If he stayed Rome wouldn't have hit Nathan ect ect. poppycock!

 

Here's the truth: Wille left and joined the only team in the league 100% committed to playing garbage trap hockey, and as history shows, if a team is willing to trap all the way the cup can be had by teams with below average talent.

 

Then he went back to FLA to become one of the worst rated D-men in the league until he retired