Bang Bang Boogie Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 1 hour ago, CeeBee51 said: Doesn't help his "numbers" being a shutdown center on a bad team as well as a fairy young team on defence. I know what you meant but man...that typo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, on the cycle said: Yeah it was a good deal should of been $3M but Sutter isn't much better offensively and is $1.375M more than that. If Sutter was getting paid $3.5M I'd be fine with it. Again... centre = worth more. 2 years later = inflation. At best, I'll grant you Sutter might be 'over paid' about $300k And that doesn't take in to context that you likely have to pay free agents more to play for a non-contender, which we very much are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeeBee51 Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 good thing it's not our money 2 minutes ago, Bang Bang Boogie said: I know what you meant but man...that typo. oops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
on the cycle Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 1 minute ago, J.R. said: Again... centre = worth more. 2 years later = inflation. At best, I'll grant you Sutter might be 'over paid' about $300k And that doesn't take in to context that you likely have to pay free agents more to play for a non-contender, which we very much are. He'd be lucky to be a 4th line center on a cup contender. I would rather get someone like Malhotra for less money. Do you also like Gudbranson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, J.R. said: Again... centre = worth more. 2 years later = inflation. At best, I'll grant you Sutter might be 'over paid' about $300k And that doesn't take in to context that you likely have to pay free agents more to play for a non-contender, which we very much are. But... but... the chart.... and Bonino.... that $300k could have gone to Sbisa to "overpay" more for him..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
on the cycle Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, J.R. said: Again... centre = worth more. 2 years later = inflation. At best, I'll grant you Sutter might be 'over paid' about $300k And that doesn't take in to context that you likely have to pay free agents more to play for a non-contender, which we very much are. Right but he wasn't a pending FA when we aquired him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 5 minutes ago, on the cycle said: He'd be lucky to be a 4th line center on a cup contender. I would rather get someone like Malhotra for less money. Do you also like Gudbranson? He WAS a 3C on a cup contender. You wouldn't get a Malhotra for much less money today and Sutter brings more offensive production. Manny signed for $2.5m SIX years ago and without the offensive production. Yes, very much. We've barely seen what he's truly capable of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apollo Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 59 minutes ago, J.R. said: Clearly Sbisa is our 2nd best forward +100! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
on the cycle Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 1 minute ago, J.R. said: He WAS a 3C on a cup contender. You wouldn't get a Malhotra for much less money today and Sutter brings more offensive production. Manny signed for $2.5m SIX years ago and without the offensive production. Yes, very much. We've barely seen what he's truly capable of. uh huh, at 28 years old next month. He's hit his ceiling already. I would love to see his trade value if another GM thinks he's as good as you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Just now, on the cycle said: uh huh, at 28 years old next month. He's hit his ceiling already. I would love to see his trade value if another GM thinks he's as good as you do. *Gudbranson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 15 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said: That all sounds great. But whats annoying to me about this kind of discussion - particularly trying to compare different players on different teams, is guys are given different types of roles. On the Canucks e.g., Sutter may be asked to do things that lower GF stats - does it mean he sucks or is he doing his job? I don't see how you can possibly compare internal team stats with other teams unless you can somehow correct for a players role. I also never, ever see any attempt at margins of error on these things. The chart above suggests that Gaunce is a better winger than Sutter, and thats ridiculous. I understand the frustration. And you're correct that there are a host of factors not being taken into account. And to be honest, pretty much all hockey "advanced stats" are just extremely blunt instruments. I mean, lots of these hockey analytics guys get all excited when their models have R-squared values around 0.3. But in terms of actually making definitive claims about individual player value or accurately predicting future results, these stats are all pretty useless (yeah, I said it ). Too many factors that just can't be measured (as you note). At least not yet. But still, regarding Sutter, the differences between what we're seeing in his on-ice goals metrics this season, compared to what we saw before, gives me a degree of confidence in saying that something odd is happening during his minutes played to-date in 2016-17. And therefore we shouldn't draw too many conclusions about his value from his current season GF% numbers (beyond him simply having some bad results this year when it comes to team rates while he's been on the ice). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bohoforpresident Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Ya'll trying to figure out the answer to The Sutter equation like Sutter's a gamer. Who doesn't like a guy who can score clutch goals and win faceoffs and block shots?! Fancy stat arguments are exhausting to read Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
on the cycle Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, J.R. said: *Gudbranson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said: I understand the frustration. And you're correct that there are a host of factors not being taken into account. And to be honest, pretty much all hockey "advanced stats" are just extremely blunt instruments. I mean, lots of these hockey analytics guys get all excited when their models have R-squared values around 0.3. But in terms of actually making definitive claims about individual player value or accurately predicting future results, these stats are all pretty useless (yeah, I said it ). Too many factors that just can't be measured (as you note). At least not yet. But still, regarding Sutter, the differences between what we're seeing in his on-ice goals metrics this season, compared to what we saw before, gives me a degree of confidence in saying that something odd is happening during his minutes played to-date in 2016-17. And therefore we shouldn't draw too many conclusions about his value from his current season GF% numbers (beyond him simply having some bad results this year when it comes to team rates while he's been on the ice). Ouch. Admittedly nearly all of what I've seen are things from hacks like Yost or stuff people put up here, and wow, its so bad. I'd really like to see things progress, it would be really interesting to see a proper model. But right now it sure feels like people get an idea, then go "get" the stats to prove their point, vs letting the data propose the models. I think the variation can be explained in his line deployments. He's been on 3 lines, not sure how many different line mates (guessing 7 or 8) and he's still getting it done many nights. If you left him alone for a season with Loui and Granlund I bet you a coke he'd be right where he's been statistically for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 11 hours ago, on the cycle said: everyone looking at counting stats I see. That's ok I remember when I was in high school. "You are only allowed to use reputation once per day" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bohoforpresident Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewbieCanuckFan Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Whether he is or not isn't the point; the fact one can make a plausible argument that Sutter is the 2nd best forward on the team speaks just how "good" offensively the rest of the team is upfront. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 22 minutes ago, on the cycle said: New team, new coaches, new systems, new conference, small sample size, playing injured for part of that small sample size, playing over his head with top 2 D out for that small sample size, partnered with sophomore slumping Hutton who was also playing over his head for that small sample size all on a decidedly mediocre team. Clearly, drawing firm conclusions as to his value for the next say 6 years based on those circumstances is of dubious value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeneedLumme Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 The posters complaining about Sutter remind me of that sleaze Gallagher. On 1040 this morning, in the same interview he yammered on about how disappointing Sutter's play has been and then described the Canucks getting a point last night (due to SUTTER scoring a very clutch goal) as pure luck. To to me that kind of blatant dishonesty is difficult to fathom, but to the trolls, haters and simpletons who like to emulate Gallagher I guess it's just the usual "duh, I'm entitled to express my opinion". With respect to the OP's point, I would say that Sutter's skill level is maybe number 5 or 6 among Canuck forwards, but due to his versatility and work ethic I would agree that he is probably the second most valuable forward to the team, behind only Bo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bohoforpresident Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 11 minutes ago, bohoforpresident said: The story of some randoms going online Canucks forum and reshaping the way we think about hockey. Sometimes the most appropriate quote is something you said yourself lol. Site isn't very mobile friendly* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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