Brandon Sutter is #2 Forward on this Team

[Baggins]

13 hours ago, *Buzzsaw* said:

yanking Eriksson off the line to keep the Sedins happy.

 

 

As much as I agree with loving Sutter's play, completely unfounded stupid comments like the above earned you a minus.

[aGENT]

13 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said:

The posters complaining about Sutter remind me of that sleaze Gallagher. On 1040 this morning, in the same interview he yammered on about how disappointing Sutter's play has been and then described the Canucks getting a point last night (due to SUTTER scoring a very clutch goal) as pure luck. 

 

To to me that kind of blatant dishonesty is difficult to fathom, but to the trolls, haters and simpletons who like to emulate Gallagher I guess it's just the usual "duh, I'm entitled to express my opinion".

 

With respect to the OP's point, I would say that Sutter's skill level is maybe number 5 or 6 among Canuck forwards, but due to his versatility and work ethic I would agree that he is probably the second most valuable forward to the team, behind only Bo.

 

...Don/BMac about taking the Crypt Keeper to task on his insistence that neither Baer or Granlund had to 'earn' their current roles and that they were gifted prime spots on the team, too 

 

EVERY damn pre game show he goes on about whichever flavour of the week (Virtanen, Rodin etc) isn't getting in to the lineup/a prime assignment and how some guys have to 'earn' spots and some seemingly don't. Yup, huge double standard Tony  

[on the cycle]

6 hours ago, Toyotasfan said:

I think his role is really the third line centre on any other team. Great play as of late .

yup pretty much. Nothing wrong with a 3rd line center.

[iinatcc]

Making a little over 4 million a year and on pace for having 20 goals and 40 points and can be defensively responsible I say his salary is fair.

 

Though, if the Sedins retire Vancouver has no choice but to make him the #2 center which probably isn't ideal since you want your Top 2 centers to have a combination of 120 points a season. 

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, iinatcc said:

Making a little over 4 million a year and on pace for having 20 goals and 40 points and can be defensively responsible I say his salary is fair.

 

Though, if the Sedins retire Vancouver has no choice but to make him the #2 center which probably isn't ideal since you want your Top 2 centers to have a combination of 120 points a season. 

 

This is true but we're rebuilding, so shouldn't be too unexpected. Unless Benning can trade for/draft a future top 6 C that can make the jump the year following the Sedins retiring, we're likely to have a rough year after next season.

 

If he can find one... Horvat, 'future C', Sutter (while still likely having some growing pains) would be passable top 3 C depth and hopefully a couple years from then, pretty darn good.

[on the cycle]

Well all I can say is I hope Sutter keeps this pace up and improves his puck possession. He seems like a nice guy with a good work ethic. 

 

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, like I did last year. I would like nothing more than for him to have a career year and have the chance to get traded to a contender, just like most players I like.

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, on the cycle said:

Well all I can say is I hope Sutter keeps this pace up and improves his puck possession. He seems like a nice guy with a good work ethic. 

 

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, like I did last year. I would like nothing more than for him to have a career year and have the chance to get traded to a contender, just like most players I like.

 

Sutter is not getting traded.

[Down by the River]

2 hours ago, S'all Good Man said:

 

Can we take a vote to stop calling it "advanced" until they state all the assumptions and give us the actual margin of error? Otherwise its a joke.

 

But I suppose if they did provide the margins, they couldn't use the info to target players they don't like as there wouldn't be enough difference between many players  

I love how ppl have taken a concept that is calculated no differently than +/- and think that this is advanced stats. More useful than +/-? You betcha. More sophisticated? Nooope.

[10pavelbure96]

11 hours ago, WTG said:

Sutter is not the 2nd best forward on the team, not even close.

 

When Sutter is on the ice even strength the canucks are only scoring 35.6% of goals for. 

 

In the league, he ranks 127th out of 132 in Goals for % Relative to his teammates, out of forwards that have had more then 500+ ES minutes.

 

 

Could be argued that he's the worst center on our team.

 

 

Considering the amount of time he's spent with the Sedins this isn't remotely close

 

But what good is winning faceoffs when you are just fishing the puck out of your own net at the end of the shift

 

 

Sutter has a really god damn bad contract.

He also is deployed as a checking centre against other teams top players while playing on one of the worst teams in the league

.........

 

Like many have said before, hard to argue with the OP. 

[stawns]

1 hour ago, on the cycle said:

Well all I can say is I hope Sutter keeps this pace up and improves his puck possession. He seems like a nice guy with a good work ethic. 

 

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, like I did last year. I would like nothing more than for him to have a career year and have the chance to get traded to a contender, just like most players I like.

you do realize that it is usually Sutter that draws the matchups with the best players from the opposing teams.  Of course his puck possession numbers (a ridiculous stat to look at an individual player with) are going to be skewed.  That's a stupid argument to make

[ice orca]

9 minutes ago, stawns said:

you do realize that it is usually Sutter that draws the matchups with the best players from the opposing teams.  Of course his puck possession numbers (a ridiculous stat to look at an individual player with) are going to be skewed.  That's a stupid argument to make

Maybe Willie should have used him against Johansen last night as Horvat got eaten alive. Horvat has been getting a big brunt of matchups against teams top guys almost exclusive in the d-zone.

[WTG]

7 hours ago, S'all Good Man said:

 

This is a great  example of bad statistics. GF% relative to team mates, then compared team by team, is totally meaningless. Where's your margin of error on this?  If your chart is telling you Sutter is our worst C you need a new chart. 

 

"If your claim goes against the status quo then it's a wrong claim"

 

"If you are using data and science to determine that the earth is not flat but in fact round then your data/science is wrong" - Catholic Church

[WTG]

5 hours ago, Spitfire_Spiky said:

Horrible analysis of a players worth. Advanced stats like this take just a snapshot of a player and it does don't take into account the fact that he is playing in a shutdown role against other teams top lines and has the majority of his starts in the defensive end.

 

When he was playing with the Sedins he made that line better, no one other then Hansen has been able to get that line rolling and if he wasn't needed in his checking role he would the solution to the Sedin line's problem.

 

As you mentioned he does win faceoffs and its not that hes always fishing it out of his own net, its that the faceoffs are in his own end so the ones he does lose the opposition is then setup in our end and have a chance to score.

 

While I can't agree that Sutter is our #2 forward he is definitely top 5 and brings a lot to this team. I'm happier with his contract now then I was when we signed him to it so hopefully he can keep trending the right way and we can get him some better wingers than Megna.

Does "Shutdown" role include being dragged around by the sedins for 10 games?

 

He made the Sedins worse, and by a whole lot.

 

Sutter has been a anchor

 

Faceoff doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. I'm dead serious here, faceoffs barely if at all effect the macro effect of possession.

 

http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2013/10/9/4817802/lies-damn-lies-and-faceoff-percentages

 

Sutter has been one of the reasons we've been so bad.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, WTG said:

Does "Shutdown" role include being dragged around by the sedins for 10 games?

 

He made the Sedins worse, and by a whole lot.

 

Sutter has been a anchor

 

Faceoff doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. I'm dead serious here, faceoffs barely if at all effect the macro effect of possession.

 

http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2013/10/9/4817802/lies-damn-lies-and-faceoff-percentages

 

Sutter has been one of the reasons we've been so bad.

Don't the Twins shoulder some responsibility for hurting the team?

[oldnews]

14 hours ago, on the cycle said:

Saying "simply false" doesn't make it so.

 

 

14 hours ago, on the cycle said:

 

BTW Sutter's corsi with the twins was about 33%.

Normally I'd elaborate but in this case the claim was so absurd I couldn't be bothered.

Case in point this claim you've made above - which is laughable.  I'd love to see you reference that.

[oldnews]

6 hours ago, PLOGUE said:

He isn't that good at all.  11 goals with all that 1st PP unit time?  Worst stats on the team for possession.  He scores a game tying goal and a thread starts declaring him a God...seems about right for CDC.

 

FYI..if he's the 2nd best forward then this team sucks hard.

Says the guy who argued on and on ad infinitum that Hodgson was better than Kesler.

That says about all anyone needs to know.

[WTG]

3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Don't the Twins shoulder some responsibility for hurting the team?

Sedins are much better away from Sutter/Megna.

 

Sutter makes everyone around him worse.

 

I mean sure, Sedins do deserve criticism but really what can they really do when a boat anchor like Sutter gets tied to their line.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, oldnews said:

Says the guy who argued on and on ad infinitum that Hodgson was better than Kesler.

That says about all anyone needs to know.

Hodgson was better than Kesler...better dressed.  

Sutter is a good player.  He's nothing special.  

[oldnews]

5 hours ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

 

He's also been poor in "possession" stats for most of his career.

 

Actually, it's the analytics that are poor.  "Possession" stats with no context - ie shutdown minutes with high qoc, low ozone starts are utterly meaningless and reductive and give a person literally no indication of a player's true effectiveness, something I'm pretty sure you're aware of.

I could and would dig into them all over again had I not done so quite thoroughly - including looking at who Sutter has played with throughout his career - in the Sutter trade thread and simply can't be bothered to rehash it all.

If people wish to delude themselves into thinking Sutter is a fourth line - or even third line center based upon a ludicrous cherry-pick, that's their prerogative.  Willful ignorance is in vogue.

[oldnews]

4 hours ago, apollo said:

It Sutter's right to be -14 and called the 2nd best player on the team in your eyes? He's not our 2nd best forward whatsoever. 

 

He's grown on me, don't get me wrong but that's a ludicrous statement. 

Ah, and by extension we could look to Horvats' +/- last year, think it was actually significant, and come to the utterly ludicrous assumption that he's not one of the best forwards on this team. 

If people want to cherry pick +/- or "possession" in no context whatsover, fill your boots - y'all are the ones missing out on comprehending player's abilities as a result.