Proposal (Duchene could end the rebuild)

[Alflives]

27 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Yes we agree. 

-We don't have the assets to get either player, if canucks were another 2 years in development then maybe we do have the assets, but as of right now, we don't.   

-I do agree that Mr.53's offer is close when considering some past "market value" deals, but that's ignoring the current teams needs, wants, and goals. 

 

When and if Duchene does get moved, the focal point of the package coming back will be a young D with top pairing potential.  I have no doubt. 

So Duchene's return will be like what Hall got?  Adam Larssen seems to be a youngish d with top pairing potential.

[bohoforpresident]

14 hours ago, ABNuck said:

You ignored my free life lesson son...you're judging again without knowing me.

 

And what does YOUR hockey credentials have to do with anything? Nobody called you down and stated emphatically that you don't understand hockey...YOU did that to me bub. So suck up the retort like a man. If you want to drag this into the ditch, I can slug it out with the best. If you want to keep it civil, I'm with you.

 

So in response:

A/ Who cares that they are in last place? They do. Joe does. His bosses do. The fans do. The players do. Their entire organization is such a trainwreck that Roy walked away. They need a reset. They simply cannot enter next season with the same lineup and magically expect everything to workout. If they want a top2 Dman (and who doesn't) they'll need to pony up.

 

B/ Rantanen I agree...very good up and comer no doubt. Tyson Jost? Jr A player...currently playing college hockey...never played even at the CHL level (oh, right...he was on Team Canada...1 goal and a -1 on the silver medal team)...well, if the Avs are hanging their hat on him being the future then their organization is a sad mess...oh, wait...they are. Now I see where you get that from.

 

C/ Never quote a journalist as proof of your point. Journalism is subjective. Joe Sakic can say anything he wants, but again it doesn't mean that's what they'll get. And of course he'll come out and state that he wants the moon for his player...what's he gonna say...it's OK if I don't get much for them? And is there a gun to his head? Yes. His team is dead last. His job is on the line unless they improve. Can he sit on Duchene until he gets what he wants? You bet...right up til he's a UFA and walks away for nothing. 2 years. That's the clock. And it's ticking down. If Joe has trouble getting a suitable return when Matt has 2 years left to F/A, how much will he get when it's 1 year?

 

As for my GM skills...well, I admit I was only an ass't GM for 1 year (still more experience than most on here...and one of the trades I pulled off involved a future NHL'er - a Colorado player oddly enough - so I get the value thing just fine).

Hmm.

One year work experience as Asst GM. 

I'm guessing you moved on from that career because it wasn't challenging enough.

 

You probably weren't let go in place of someone who knew what they were doing? 

[ABNuck]

On 1/27/2017 at 0:00 PM, bohoforpresident said:

Hmm.

One year work experience as Asst GM. 

I'm guessing you moved on from that career because it wasn't challenging enough.

 

You probably weren't let go in place of someone who knew what they were doing? 

Comedy Gold...I love it! No, I moved on after 1 year because I moved...on...literally. Couldn't be the Ass't GM from 400 miles away. And yes, the guy that took over from me was far more qualified...players don't always make the best coaches/GM's. I was probably better suited to the business side of the sport for sure, I was then (as I still am now) pretty good at negotiations (and hence perceptive valuations).

[captaincowbasher]

On 1/15/2017 at 3:12 PM, Kaner said:

What does the Hall deal have to do with this proposal? That was widely regarded as lopsided trade. The Oils were dealing from a position of weakness. 

 

Anyways, Sbisa and Granlund (plus the rest of the package) will not get you close to Duchene. 

Not really, that's the Market for a young stud defenceman, ex. Seth Jones got Nashville a legit #1 center in R.JO. Guys the market for say Tanev would be Landeskog, or Hutton for Duschene straight across. Sakic needs to come to earth and JB just needs to wait, because Hutton's value will only go up, just like Stetcher's and Tram-Ram's, to be honest with you the Canucks are dealing from a position of strength, no need to panic

[Mr.53]

Wow, I've been gone for a couple of days just living life, doing stuff and see this thread is still active. I'm honestly kind of shocked... 

 

On 1/26/2017 at 7:29 PM, WhoseTruckWasIt said:

No one is arguing facts.  The argument is about the implication of the facts.  That is up for debate.  Pretty basic stuff.  Good luck with that grade 10.

 

But anyway, @WhoseTruckWasIt Why are you so mad bro? We are all here calmy debating and explaining our points back and forth. Why you got to be like that? Relax. It's just an online forum. Like @ABNuck @ForsbergTheGreat and others. Agree or disagree, we can debate, just use substance to back up your arguments like others do. Anyway.

[Mr.53]

On 1/26/2017 at 10:31 PM, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Trades don't just happen overnight, they take time to come together.  Especially big trades with big name players.  How long did it take the canucks to move luongo?

 

What some people are having a hard time grasping is that, the av's either get what they are asking for, or they don't make the move.  It's not like they are at an auction and take the highest offer, even if it's well below what the value is. 

This is the part where I agree with you. That is why this is my proposal. I don't think that this will actually happen tomorrow. But this is a deal that I believe is fair or at least very close to fair value. But I agree with you it's much more likely the Avs wait until the Summer and make a move then. One, because that would make deals easier with cap issues, and two, after the expansion draft, I see teams more willing to make moves with their rosters. There's a lot of uncertainty right now, so I expect a lot of GMs to stand pat and just wait until the summer.

 

As you can tell, I disagree in them not making a big move before next season. The Avs are in bad shape as a franchise. They're about to get a first overall but they have many holes to fill all over the place. It's possible they try and make some moves in free agency and maybe they can attract some good free agents, but it's not exactly easy to do when your franchise looks they way theirs does right now. I think they have to move Duchene and then look to free agency to try and make a turn around. I don't see Colorado standing pat and going into next season with a similar roster with no shake ups. But that's just a difference of opinion.

[Mr.53]

I'm posting this just to show 2 things. 1 they make a reference to what @ABNuck was saying before. They mention how with the state of the franchise, and Colorado doing do poorly, they really have to make some moves to shake things up and reinvent themselves. They even disagree with the idea that Colorado doesn't put Nathan Mackinnon on the trade block as well.

 

He states just as I have said, Mackinnon is a great player in this league, but he's still not on the calibre of other superstar centers in the league, as he mentions a Kopitar, a Getzlaf, a Toews. ("Not in the same ballpark") And this video talks about Nathan Mackinnon! Who I thin Most people would agree is the better player of the two. (Also why Colorado wants to keep Mackinnon as an untradable.) And when it comes to his potential, relax.

 

Also, when referring to Mackinnon, "Can he become Patrick Kanish, maybe." And Duchene is again the worse of the two and older. Do not overvalue Matt Duchene on a 2 year deal before free agency. (2 and half if before the deadline) Yes he would be the best offensive scorer on our team, but that doesn't mean you give up your whole farm for him. And that's why a deal hasn't been done. Sakic is hoping maybe an injury or something happens before the seasons out, and a team actually offers up an outrageous deal where he looks like a genius. Meanwhile all of the rest of the GMs in the league are standing pat with their low ball offers. Eventually somebody will come to an agreement and Sakic will pull the trigger. Probably this summer honestly.

 

Still, this package is showing more and more to be increasingly fair and close to real value. Granlund, Sbisa, Subban, and a 1st, for Duchene, a 2nd(likely 33-31), and maybe a low value piece like Andreas Martinsen or a throw away prospect or something. Fair deal for both sides where they walk away with what they want. On top, Sbisa gets top minutes and becomes a leader on Col playing with Barrie, Subban gets 3rd pairing minutes on a team looking to get younger next season, Duchene gets a new team where he's looked to be the number 1 center and a leader for the new generation with Bo, Granlund kind of just has to go to make it fair, but still. Almost everyone wins...

 

(They also mention how Colorado is a team with pieces, but they just need to fill in a lot of holes. When you've already got big pieces in play, like a Landeskog, Barrie, Johnson, Mackinnon, and a soon to be top pick, what you need to focus on is filling in all those gaps and holes in your franchise so your stars can shine. Holes like a defensive defensman that's much younger than anything they have, a near NHL ready prospect, and a first.) He gives them 24 months plus. Seems like a good timeline. You don't realize, Sbisa would likely be a top pairing dman in Chicago due to him being Barrie's likely linemate. But it gives Subban and a first round pick time to get to the league and their legs under them possibly along with the first overall and other developing pieces.

[TheHitman]

But would you do:

Tanev
Granlund
Hansen
Juolevi
2018 1st
2018 2nd
2019 1st

for

MacKinnon
Landeskog

Not sure if it Colorado passes 50 roster players in that deal though. 

2017-18:
Landeskog-MacKinnon-Eriksson
Baerstchi-Horvat-Sutter
Sedin-Sedin-Boeser 

2019-20:
Landeskog-MacKinnon-Boeser
Baertschi-Horvat-Eriksson
????-Sutter-Virtanen 

Gives Boeser a year to gain his confidence in the NHL, and Virtanen another year or two in the AHL. We'd definitely be screwed if there was another expansion draft though. 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

14 hours ago, Mr.53 said:

Still, this package is showing more and more to be increasingly fair and close to real value. Granlund, Sbisa, Subban, and a 1st, for Duchene, a 2nd(likely 33-31), and maybe a low value piece like Andreas Martinsen or a throw away prospect or something. Fair deal for both sides where they walk away with what they want. On top, Sbisa gets top minutes and becomes a leader on Col playing with Barrie, Subban gets 3rd pairing minutes on a team looking to get younger next season, Duchene gets a new team where he's looked to be the number 1 center and a leader for the new generation with Bo, Granlund kind of just has to go to make it fair, but still. Almost everyone wins...

 

Close in value but not anywhere close in what Av's need or want. Sbisa is not and never will be a top pairing D. that is the peice that av's are looking for.  Someone who can become that player for them. 

 

If a team is looking for a #1 G you can't it doesn't work to just offer them Garteig and a bunch of other pieces and think that satisfies there needs.  It doesn't and that the point.  Elliot Freiman was just talking about the Av's need to get a win this deal, that the fans won't expect trading a core player for anything less than core player (or core potential) in return.  Carolina is the front runners of a deal with the ability to offer some top young upcoming D (hanifin, Slavin) and NYI are also said to be in the mix.  Daren Dreger also thinks MTL is really interested (with Sergachev likely in the deal)

 

I guarantee you what they are offered have far more appeal than Sbisa and subban as fixes for the weak D core.   

 

Quote

(They also mention how Colorado is a team with pieces, but they just need to fill in a lot of holes. When you've already got big pieces in play, like a Landeskog, Barrie, Johnson, Mackinnon, and a soon to be top pick, what you need to focus on is filling in all those gaps and holes in your franchise so your stars can shine. Holes like a defensive defensman that's much younger than anything they have, a near NHL ready prospect, and a first.) He gives them 24 months plus. Seems like a good timeline. You don't realize, Sbisa would likely be a top pairing dman in Chicago due to him being Barrie's likely linemate. But it gives Subban and a first round pick time to get to the league and their legs under them possibly along with the first overall and other developing pieces.

??  Sbisa is not a top pairing D. He's not a top pairing D on a bubble playoff team like vancouver how is he going to be one of to solve the Av's future D needs?  and Subban doesn't holds next to no value. You're trying to sell them off as valuable assets that teams are willing to pay top dollar for. 

[Mr.53]

4 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Close in value but not anywhere close in what Av's need or want. Sbisa is not and never will be a top pairing D. that is the peice that av's are looking for.  Someone who can become that player for them. 

 

If a team is looking for a #1 G you can't it doesn't work to just offer them Garteig and a bunch of other pieces and think that satisfies there needs.  It doesn't and that the point.  Elliot Freiman was just talking about the Av's need to get a win this deal, that the fans won't expect trading a core player for anything less than core player (or core potential) in return.  Carolina is the front runners of a deal with the ability to offer some top young upcoming D (hanifin, Slavin) and NYI are also said to be in the mix.  Daren Dreger also thinks MTL is really interested (with Sergachev likely in the deal)

 

I guarantee you what they are offered have far more appeal than Sbisa and subban as fixes for the weak D core.   

 

??  Sbisa is not a top pairing D. He's not a top pairing D on a bubble playoff team like vancouver how is he going to be one of to solve the Av's future D needs?  and Subban doesn't holds next to no value. You're trying to sell them off as valuable assets that teams are willing to pay top dollar for. 

Sorry. Not Chicago. I meant Colorado, but I think you got that. And I don't think Sbisa is a top pairing D but he is definately a second pairing. And at that point, it's about matchups. I think he would be a good fit to play with Tyson Barrie for a while until they draft (maybe with a second first rounder) and develop themselves a stud Dman.

 

And I got you Forsberg. We've been debating back and forth. We disagree. We can keep going back and forth, but I think we both see where eachother is coming from. If Duchene does get a top defensive prospect like a Hanifan, I highly doubt it will be in a serious package. Don't undervalue guys like hanifan. Sergachev, i could actually see given Montreals d core. i also could see NYI giving up a 1 on 1 for a hamonic or a leddy or something, but still. We just disagree on the proposal. No harm there.