Proposal (Duchene could end the rebuild)

[hammertime]

10 minutes ago, Alflives said:

For similar return, yes.  

I would trade Tanev and Hansen for him. We no longer risk loosing Sbisa to expansion and we only have to expose one of Granlund Bae instead of both. If we need to make another deal to get a return on expansion eligible fwd so be it. 

[Mr.53]

Duchene's resume does not warrant a massive return like you guys say. He's also about to be a UFA in a few years and has no obligations to resign unless we offer cash or have him want to come back. And the current market is trending toward defensmen. It's just the way it is. Defensman have much more value than forwards. This is exactly why we took Juolevi. Trading for top defensmen is almost impossible. Again, even Taylor Hall couldn't do it, and I would argue he's a better overall player than Duchene.

 

So yes, there is historic precedent for this deal to happen, given a template like this. Both in high profile trades like the Kesler (I get the team was handicapped) and recent trades like the Taylor Hall trade. Even the Gudbranson trade showed just how much a quality center prospect is worth nowadays. Even if we give more, I'd be willing to pull the trigger to balance out this team. Id go

 

Granlund, Sbisa, Subban, and our 1st still. (With Duchene I think we are playoff bound. I'm guessing it will be in the 20s.) 

For Duchene, Tyutin, and a 2nd.

[JustABandwagoner]

On 1/15/2017 at 5:08 PM, ajhockey said:

I like your choice to model it after the Kesler deal, but Granlund's value today is less than Sutter's in the Kesler deal. Granlund looks really good and might really be, but he's yet to prove it over the long term. At the time of the Kesler deal, Sutter already had two 20-goal seasons and a 17-goal season. He was a fairly well known quantity and Granlund is still a wild card.

 

Sbisa has great +/- and I love that he's improved dramatically, but let's be honest, if he's a 4/5 guy in Vancouver, he's a #6 guy in most other markets, especially ones with good teams. His good +/- is also countered by his terrible Corsi and Fenwick numbers, in which he is 2nd last and last on our team's defensemen, respectively. A high number of blocks would be a counterpoint to this, but Sbisa's 1.5 blocks per game are only a middle-of-the-pack number for the Canucks d-core. While Sbisa is a hard hitter (arguably one of our best hitters), his 1.6 hits per game is surpassed by Edler, Gudbranson, Tryamkin, and Biega (who is first). He also has many giveaways, 2nd among our d-core. This isn't to say that Sbisa is terrible; he's alright...for a bottom-pairing role. Suggesting that he's a top four defenseman isn't particularly defensible I'd say.

 

Subban has very little value I'd say. He's still improving and could still make the NHL, but it's really a long shot. Given his height and a propensity for defensive lapses, I'd say it's more likely that he'll have a career dominating the AHL than become an NHL star. I hope I'm wrong and he rips it up for Vancouver, but I see the AHL as the most likely result. 

 

Colorado laughs at this offer.

Read above @Mr.53

 

No way COL does this. 

 

In fact post this on a COL forum say what happens. Or post in a neutral hockey forum 

3 minutes ago, Mr.53 said:

Duchene's resume does not warrant a massive return like you guys say. He's also about to be a UFA in a few years and has no obligations to resign unless we offer cash or have him want to come back. And the current market is trending toward defensmen. It's just the way it is. Defensman have much more value than forwards. This is exactly why we took Juolevi. Trading for top defensmen is almost impossible. Again, even Taylor Hall couldn't do it, and I would argue he's a better overall player than Duchene.

 

So yes, there is historic precedent for this deal to happen, given a template like this. Both in high profile trades like the Kesler (I get the team was handicapped) and recent trades like the Taylor Hall trade. Even the Gudbranson trade showed just how much a quality center prospect is worth nowadays. Even if we give more, I'd be willing to pull the trigger to balance out this team. Id go

 

Granlund, Sbisa, Subban, and our 1st still. (With Duchene I think we are playoff bound. I'm guessing it will be in the 20s.) 

For Duchene, Tyutin, and a 2nd.

 

[JustABandwagoner]

8 minutes ago, hammertime said:

I would trade Tanev and Hansen for him. We no longer risk loosing Sbisa to expansion and we only have to expose one of Granlund Bae instead of both. If we need to make another deal to get a return on expansion eligible fwd so be it. 

Why would COL be interested in Hansen? 

[JustABandwagoner]

Anyways... I really dont think we are the right trading partner for COL 

[Mr.53]

Yeah if someone posted Kesler for Bonino, Sbisa, and a late first, a lot of people would have laughed and said no way.

 

If someone posted Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson, everyone would have said hell no, you're crazy.

 

If you would have posted McCann for Gudbranson, the same thing.

 

You notice a pattern? Fans don't always get the value and real deals right.

 

If Colorado can fill multiple pieces they need especially knowing that a player like Hischer or Nolan is about to come back, it could happen. They cross off many boxes for their reset in one move. Duchene bringing back, Granlund, Sbisa, Subban, and a 1st is plenty.

[hammertime]

Just now, DontMessMe said:

Why would COL be interested in Hansen? 

Hansen is one of the best back checking, fore checking, PKing, puck pursuing, fastest and hardest working players in the league not to mention he can put up a few points if you need him to. How good is their fwd group at any of the things that are Hansens calling card. Could this correlate to why they can't seem to handle any team in the leagues offence even ours. I think they would have use for Hansen.  

[JustABandwagoner]

3 minutes ago, Mr.53 said:

Yeah if someone posted Kesler for Bonino, Sbisa, and a late first, a lot of people would have laughed and said no way.

 

If someone posted Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson, everyone would have said hell no, you're crazy.

 

If you would have posted McCann for Gudbranson, the same thing.

 

You notice a pattern? Fans don't always get the value and real deals right.

 

If Colorado can fill multiple pieces they need especially knowing that a player like Hischer or Nolan is about to come back, it could happen. They cross off many boxes for their reset in one move. Duchene bringing back, Granlund, Sbisa, Subban, and a 1st is plenty.

sighhh. Wont happen. COL doesnt have to make the trade yenno.

 

3 minutes ago, hammertime said:

Hansen is one of the best back checking, fore checking, PKing, puck pursuing, fastest and hardest working players in the league not to mention he can put up a few points if you need him to. How good is their fwd group at any of the things that are Hansens calling card. Could this correlate to why they can't seem to handle any team in the leagues offence even ours. I think they would have use for Hansen.  

Good argument but I feel like at this point, COL would like a high draft pick. 

[hammertime]

11 minutes ago, DontMessMe said:

 

Good argument but I feel like at this point, COL would like a high draft pick. 

I fully agree I'm certain they would love a high draft pick. Though I highly doubt they get both a top pairing D and a top draft pick they will likely have to settle for one or the other and a usable piece that fills a need (Hansen), or stand pat and hope for the best. 

 

They have a good amount of firepower on their team and youthful players with high upside but without players who can tilt the ice and get things going north your always gonna be hemmed in getting hammered night after night.

[hammertime]

1 hour ago, Mr.53 said:

Duchene's resume does not warrant a massive return like you guys say. He's also about to be a UFA in a few years and has no obligations to resign unless we offer cash or have him want to come back. And the current market is trending toward defensmen. It's just the way it is. Defensman have much more value than forwards. This is exactly why we took Juolevi. Trading for top defensmen is almost impossible. Again, even Taylor Hall couldn't do it, and I would argue he's a better overall player than Duchene.

 

So yes, there is historic precedent for this deal to happen, given a template like this. Both in high profile trades like the Kesler (I get the team was handicapped) and recent trades like the Taylor Hall trade. Even the Gudbranson trade showed just how much a quality center prospect is worth nowadays. Even if we give more, I'd be willing to pull the trigger to balance out this team. Id go

 

Granlund, Sbisa, Subban, and our 1st still. (With Duchene I think we are playoff bound. I'm guessing it will be in the 20s.) 

For Duchene, Tyutin, and a 2nd.

I was in agreement with everything you said in this post right up until your proposal.

 

You have 8 million coming in and only 4.5 going out. We have a lil over 300K in cap space. I'm assuming we don't re sign Tyutin no biggi curious why you want him in this proposal it just adds another 2m for a player we don't really need. Also we are still left exposing one of Hansen Baertschi. Which honestly left with no other options I would prefer to expose Granlund in a worst case sky is falling scenario as we have Sutter in that 3c hole and Virtanen could likely slide in on LW next to Sutter next season or even Rodin if he ever gets healthy.   

[Mr.53]

Ok let me lay some facts on you about what NHL forwards are actually worth. Instead of arguing and going "no way man!" Lets just look at the history. The books don't lie and when you go back and look you realise, no, a trade for Duchene would not cost Bo. Don't under value our players just because they're ours. Bo is worth more to us than Duchene. Bo is about to be our franchise cornerstone similar to the Avs Landeskog. We are building around him, not trading him. Duchene is not their Landeskog. He's the expendable forward of the group if it fills other holes. Especially with a first overall pick, like Hischer or Nolan, the Avs are not worried about up front. They'll get a player like Duchene after the draft and more. What they're worried about is their blueline getting younger, faster, and more capable.

 

Anyway. Here are some recent trades to put this into context roughly. 

 

As been mentioned 

Ryan Kesler basically for Nick Bonino, Luca Sbisa, and a late First round pick: Ryan Kesler, a former selke winner, who, granted gave two teams and demanded a trade, returned Nick Bonino, an impact role playing middle six center, Luca Sbisa, the Ducks 6th or 7th dman at the time, and a late first round pick.

Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson straight: An All star forward and arguably franchise type player, for a young defensive defensman with some promise but not much offense..

Jared McCann for Erik Gudbranson: A 19 year old top prospect with future top 6 center potential, for a young defensive defensman with some promise but not much offense.

 

All beforehand would have been seen as massive low balls on the online community, but were real deals that actually got done in real life.

 

Here's some more trades for some forwards in Duchene's stratosphere in recent times.

 

TJ Oshie for Troy Brouwer, Pheonix Copley, and a 3rd round pick: TJ Oshie for Troy Brouwer, a middle 6 role player equivalent to a Hansen to replace the spot, some goalie nobody knows, and a 3rd.

Brandon Saad Michael Paliotta, Alexander Broadhurst for Artem Anisimov, Marko Dano, Jeremy Morin, Corey Crop, and a 4th: This is basically Brandon Saad for Artem Anisimov and Marko Dano with other pieces to balance out. So Saad a young beastly Brandon Saad for Anisimov, a role player who fit a need, and Dano, a young near NHL ready prospect meant to join the core. Key here, not somebody like a Horvat. More like say, a Granlund, or slightly more.

Milan Lucic for Martin Jones, Colin Miller and 1st round pick: Milan Lucic a top 6 powerforward, and arguably a irreplaceable presence due to his unique toolset, for at the time, a young goaltending prospect in Martin Jones, (Keep in mind this is before he got good and was still just a good prospect.), Colin Miller, a 5th round pick with offensive upside from the blueline, (Sounds similar to Subban) and a 1st.

Ryan O'Reilly and Jamie McGinn for Nikita Zadorov, Mikhail Grigorenko, JT Compher, and a 2nd round pick: Now this one is tricky, as Jamie McGinn is an NHL role player in of himself. So it's Ryan O'Reilly, a young superstar two-way forward who was 23 at the time, and a role player, for 2 1st round quality prospects and 2 lessor prospects. At the time McGinn was an impact player. No all star but impact equal to a younger Hansen or so. I would say if you eliminate Jamie McGinn it boils down to Ryan O'Reilly for 2 high quality prospects or so. If you throw in our first in exchange for their second (likely 31st overall), then a 1 way Duchene costing 2 roster players, a 1st and a quality prospect in Subban seems pretty fair.

     Also, sidenote: Keep in mind. Who is often a player comparable to Bo Horvat? Ryan O'Reilly. Who is showing early signs of greatness much like Ryan O'Reilly did? Bo Horvat. That is what Bo Horvat is worth, because that is what Bo Horvat is becoming for us. So people, please, stop undervaluing our players. Horvat is a franchise cornerstone type of player you build around. Teams would offer an arm and a leg to get him right before he explodes. So please. Show the kid some respect.

 

 

That's 7 trades for impact forwards made in recent times. In those 7 trades, only the 23 year old, superstar two-way forward Ryan O'Reilly, along with Jamie McGinn, brought back significant return the likes of would equal giving up a Bo Horvat, 1st rounder, +. Matt Duchene doesn't have that kind of value that O'Reilly had either. In fact if you look at most deals like with a Taylor Hall, a Ryan Kesler, a TJ Oshie, you see the return is not often what you would expect, and much lower when the deals actually get done. Yeah teams want the farm, but most GMs aren't willing to give up the farm, which is why either no deal gets done, or the value is something else than this Bo, our 1st, plus nonsense.

 

In fact I would argue that Granlund a young role playing NHL calibre player with upward potential, Sbisa, a role playing defensive defensman, Subban a late pick who is showing he can possibly produce offensively on the blueline, and a 1st round pick, granted we get their early second, is equal if not better than most of the returns players actually brought back in these trades I've listed. These are real world trades, and real world facts, not just my opinion. This deal is better than the return for Ryan Kesler, Taylor Hall, TJ Oshie, Brandon Saad, and Milan Lucic. (Jared McCann is not comparable). Only Ryan O'Reilly brought back a better price. Still, that's 5 players in recent times whose trades show that this is actually what a real trade would look like in reality. It's high scoring defensmen that fetch the the quality returns like the Yandle trade, or the Hamilton trade.

 

My adjusted deal,

To Van: Matt Duchene, 2nd round pick. (Will likely be the 31st or something), Either a useless role player or late pick of JBs choosing)

To Col: Markus Granlund, Luca Sbisa, Jordan Subban, 1st round pick.

 

It's a deal that as you can see from history is shown to be fair and have recent historical precedent. Colorado gets 2 prospects Subban and a first, a defensive defensman, and a young forward replacement, and Vancouver gets the best player in the deal, a lessor replacement on Sbisa, and a consolatory 2nd round pick. 

 

So there. If you want to see a realistic deal, look at history. Kesler, Hall, Oshie, Saad, and Lucic are all comparable to Duchene. You tell me which one of those deals offered a better package than the one I'm proposing. I'll wait.

[Vinny in Vancouver]

 

1 hour ago, Mr.53 said:

 

 

So there. If you want to see a realistic deal, look at history. Kesler, Hall, Oshie, Saad, and Lucic are all comparable to Duchene.eYou tell me which one of those deals offered a better package than the one I'm proposing. 

Kesler was older and wanted to leave. There were strong hints that Oilers management thought Hall represented too much of the Oilers' losing ways, and I don't think the Avs are at that point yet. Lucic's talent level is nowhere near Duchene's. I love Oshie's shooting but he needs good players to produce whereas Duchene manufacturers plays out of nothing. I don't think Saad's at Duchene's level. Again: you should spend time in the Avs forum to see what people think of Duchene.

 

Tell you what, if anything close to your proposed trade happened where we manage to add Duchene while keeping Bo, Boeser, Baertschi, Tanev, Hutton, Tryamkin, Juolevi, Stecher, Virtanen and only drop less than 15 spots in the draft, I'll GLADLY change my profile's status and keep posting how great you and Alf are every day for a full month.

[Mr.53]

35 minutes ago, vinny_in_vancouver said:

 

Kesler was older and wanted to leave. There were strong hints that Oilers management thought Hall represented too much of the Oilers' losing ways, and I don't think the Avs are at that point yet. Lucic's talent level is nowhere near Duchene's. I love Oshie's shooting but he needs good players to produce whereas Duchene manufacturers plays out of nothing. I don't think Saad's at Duchene's level. Again: you should spend time in the Avs forum to see what people think of Duchene.

 

Tell you what, if anything close to your proposed trade happened where we manage to add Duchene while keeping Bo, Baertschi, Tanev, Hutton, Tryamkin, Juolevi, Stecher, Virtanen and only drop less than 15 spots in the draft, I'll GLADLY change my profile's status and keep posting how great you and Alf are every day for a full month.

I respectfully disagree. (And I say respectfully honestly. It's so annoying how people turn into children on these boards rather than actually debate their points like adults. Anyway...) 

 

Yes I agree every situation is different, but would you disagree that any of these returns were better than the one I'm proposing?

 

Kesler was older but was needed on a team that wanted to try and win the cup the next year.

 

Roy is actually very outspoken about players in the lockeroom. He doesn't dislike Duchene but it's not exactly rare to find instances of Roy calling Duchene out on stuff. I remember last year Roy called Duchene out for celebrating too much on his 30th goal because they were down 4-0. He literally said, that is what is part of the developing losing attitude on his team. You can look it up. Fast forward next year, they are in last place.

 

Duchene puts up about 60 points a year offensively. Lucic puts up pretty much the same, maybe like 55. But he provides very strong intangibles with his powerforward physical play. Duchene provides speed and scoring, and Lucic provides muscle and scoring. Duchene has had a few seasons where he extra produced and hit 70 yes, but they are still relatively similar. They even have the same 6 mill cap hit!

 

Oshie may tend to play with stars, but so does Duchene. Duchene has been on a line with Landeskog, Mackinnon, and has had Tyson Barrie feeding him from the back end. I'm not saying Duchene isn't skilled. But I'm just saying neither is Oshie. both play with stars, and play well when given the right linemates. Duchene has also shown to struggle with the wrong linemates too. He's not a perfect player. Just the player that fits our sitation perfectly.

 

And with Saad, I think we just disagree. Brandon Saad was a 22 year old 2 time stanley cup winner. And not only did he win those cups, he played major roles in the playoff push. Getting Saad would be like getting a superstar two way beast right before they explode. Fast forward to today in Columbus and what's happening? Brandon Saad is leading the charge with Nick Foligno.

 

Look, all I'm saying is this is a very realistic and fair two way deal for both sides. Historically it is better than most deals of past, but to be fair, all deals are different. But if you're telling me that all those players deals were equal to what I'm offering, or better, or that those players are so much worse than Duchene and I just flat out disagree.

 

 

[JustABandwagoner]

18 minutes ago, vinny_in_vancouver said:

 

Kesler was older and wanted to leave. There were strong hints that Oilers management thought Hall represented too much of the Oilers' losing ways, and I don't think the Avs are at that point yet. Lucic's talent level is nowhere near Duchene's. I love Oshie's shooting but he needs good players to produce whereas Duchene manufacturers plays out of nothing. I don't think Saad's at Duchene's level. Again: you should spend time in the Avs forum to see what people think of Duchene.

 

Tell you what, if anything close to your proposed trade happened where we manage to add Duchene while keeping Bo, Baertschi, Tanev, Hutton, Tryamkin, Juolevi, Stecher, Virtanen and only drop less than 15 spots in the draft, I'll GLADLY change my profile's status and keep posting how great you and Alf are every day for a full month.

I agree with whatever vinny says. 

[JustABandwagoner]

1 hour ago, Mr.53 said:

Ok let me lay some facts on you about what NHL forwards are actually worth. Instead of arguing and going "no way man!" Lets just look at the history. The books don't lie and when you go back and look you realise, no, a trade for Duchene would not cost Bo. Don't under value our players just because they're ours. Bo is worth more to us than Duchene. Bo is about to be our franchise cornerstone similar to the Avs Landeskog. We are building around him, not trading him. Duchene is not their Landeskog. He's the expendable forward of the group if it fills other holes. Especially with a first overall pick, like Hischer or Nolan, the Avs are not worried about up front. They'll get a player like Duchene after the draft and more. What they're worried about is their blueline getting younger, faster, and more capable.

 

Anyway. Here are some recent trades to put this into context roughly. 

 

As been mentioned 

Ryan Kesler basically for Nick Bonino, Luca Sbisa, and a late First round pick: Ryan Kesler, a former selke winner, who, granted gave two teams and demanded a trade, returned Nick Bonino, an impact role playing middle six center, Luca Sbisa, the Ducks 6th or 7th dman at the time, and a late first round pick.

Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson straight: An All star forward and arguably franchise type player, for a young defensive defensman with some promise but not much offense..

Jared McCann for Erik Gudbranson: A 19 year old top prospect with future top 6 center potential, for a young defensive defensman with some promise but not much offense.

 

All beforehand would have been seen as massive low balls on the online community, but were real deals that actually got done in real life.

 

Here's some more trades for some forwards in Duchene's stratosphere in recent times.

 

TJ Oshie for Troy Brouwer, Pheonix Copley, and a 3rd round pick: TJ Oshie for Troy Brouwer, a middle 6 role player equivalent to a Hansen to replace the spot, some goalie nobody knows, and a 3rd.

Brandon Saad Michael Paliotta, Alexander Broadhurst for Artem Anisimov, Marko Dano, Jeremy Morin, Corey Crop, and a 4th: This is basically Brandon Saad for Artem Anisimov and Marko Dano with other pieces to balance out. So Saad a young beastly Brandon Saad for Anisimov, a role player who fit a need, and Dano, a young near NHL ready prospect meant to join the core. Key here, not somebody like a Horvat. More like say, a Granlund, or slightly more.

Milan Lucic for Martin Jones, Colin Miller and 1st round pick: Milan Lucic a top 6 powerforward, and arguably a irreplaceable presence due to his unique toolset, for at the time, a young goaltending prospect in Martin Jones, (Keep in mind this is before he got good and was still just a good prospect.), Colin Miller, a 5th round pick with offensive upside from the blueline, (Sounds similar to Subban) and a 1st.

Ryan O'Reilly and Jamie McGinn for Nikita Zadorov, Mikhail Grigorenko, JT Compher, and a 2nd round pick: Now this one is tricky, as Jamie McGinn is an NHL role player in of himself. So it's Ryan O'Reilly, a young superstar two-way forward who was 23 at the time, and a role player, for 2 1st round quality prospects and 2 lessor prospects. At the time McGinn was an impact player. No all star but impact equal to a younger Hansen or so. I would say if you eliminate Jamie McGinn it boils down to Ryan O'Reilly for 2 high quality prospects or so. If you throw in our first in exchange for their second (likely 31st overall), then a 1 way Duchene costing 2 roster players, a 1st and a quality prospect in Subban seems pretty fair.

     Also, sidenote: Keep in mind. Who is often a player comparable to Bo Horvat? Ryan O'Reilly. Who is showing early signs of greatness much like Ryan O'Reilly did? Bo Horvat. That is what Bo Horvat is worth, because that is what Bo Horvat is becoming for us. So people, please, stop undervaluing our players. Horvat is a franchise cornerstone type of player you build around. Teams would offer an arm and a leg to get him right before he explodes. So please. Show the kid some respect.

 

 

That's 7 trades for impact forwards made in recent times. In those 7 trades, only the 23 year old, superstar two-way forward Ryan O'Reilly, along with Jamie McGinn, brought back significant return the likes of would equal giving up a Bo Horvat, 1st rounder, +. Matt Duchene doesn't have that kind of value that O'Reilly had either. In fact if you look at most deals like with a Taylor Hall, a Ryan Kesler, a TJ Oshie, you see the return is not often what you would expect, and much lower when the deals actually get done. Yeah teams want the farm, but most GMs aren't willing to give up the farm, which is why either no deal gets done, or the value is something else than this Bo, our 1st, plus nonsense.

 

In fact I would argue that Granlund a young role playing NHL calibre player with upward potential, Sbisa, a role playing defensive defensman, Subban a late pick who is showing he can possibly produce offensively on the blueline, and a 1st round pick, granted we get their early second, is equal if not better than most of the returns players actually brought back in these trades I've listed. These are real world trades, and real world facts, not just my opinion. This deal is better than the return for Ryan Kesler, Taylor Hall, TJ Oshie, Brandon Saad, and Milan Lucic. (Jared McCann is not comparable). Only Ryan O'Reilly brought back a better price. Still, that's 5 players in recent times whose trades show that this is actually what a real trade would look like in reality. It's high scoring defensmen that fetch the the quality returns like the Yandle trade, or the Hamilton trade.

 

My adjusted deal,

To Van: Matt Duchene, 2nd round pick. (Will likely be the 31st or something), Either a useless role player or late pick of JBs choosing)

To Col: Markus Granlund, Luca Sbisa, Jordan Subban, 1st round pick.

 

It's a deal that as you can see from history is shown to be fair and have recent historical precedent. Colorado gets 2 prospects Subban and a first, a defensive defensman, and a young forward replacement, and Vancouver gets the best player in the deal, a lessor replacement on Sbisa, and a consolatory 2nd round pick. 

 

So there. If you want to see a realistic deal, look at history. Kesler, Hall, Oshie, Saad, and Lucic are all comparable to Duchene. You tell me which one of those deals offered a better package than the one I'm proposing. I'll wait.

@Monty Would love to hear your opinion on this trade proposal LOL 

[Vinny in Vancouver]

2 minutes ago, Mr.53 said:

Look, all I'm saying is this is a very realistic and fair two way deal for both sides. Historically it is better than most deals of past, but to be fair, all deals are different. But if you're telling me that all those players deals were equal to what I'm offering, or better, or that those players are so much worse than Duchene and I just flat out disagree.

If you replace Sbisa with Juolevi, Burnaby Joe will answer your phone call. Or he will wait until the end of the season and our first round pick falls into the top 5, then Sakic will answer your call. I just don't see why Sakic will want to do any deals right now. It's not like his team's going to all of a sudden make the playoffs by adding those players. Besides, based on what Benning has been saying about a month ago, the Canucks will be making no trades of significance this trade deadline. I'm personally going to wait until the end of the season before proposing anything.

[Mr.53]

4 minutes ago, vinny_in_vancouver said:

If you replace Sbisa with Juolevi, Burnaby Joe will answer your phone call. Or he will wait until the end of the season and our first round pick falls into the top 5, then Sakic will answer your call. I just don't see why Sakic will want to do any deals right now. It's not like his team's going to all of a sudden make the playoffs by adding those players. Besides, based on what Benning has been saying about a month ago, the Canucks will be making no trades of significance this trade deadline. I'm personally going to wait until the end of the season before proposing anything.

That is the one thing we agree one. Colorado has no reason to just wait out the season and make a deal after, except I think Duchene losing some of his value because he is has one year left on his contract. He's a player that can still come in at the deadline, and produce for a team making a playoff push. It's actually not a bad time to sell and shake things up. Bring in new pieces to the organization and have them get acclimated for the next year. 

 

Still, it is very fair that they could wait it out and see if any other deals open up, but I think at the deadline there will be people looking to pull the trigger for their playoff push. And I got you about Benning. That is why this is my proposal. What Benning does is what Benning does. But I think this is a very fair, even proposal, and I'm saying I if I'm Benning, I rethink that.

 

You still have to wait for a first round pick to develop. And still you can get a Shinkaruk, or a Gaunce that take a long time to make it. Duchene secures our 1-2 punch duo of Duchene, Horvat. That is a core to build around. Add a Boeser here, a Virtanen there, and boom. All of a sudden we're back in this place.

 

[Mr.53]

On 1/16/2017 at 11:40 PM, hammertime said:

I was in agreement with everything you said in this post right up until your proposal.

 

You have 8 million coming in and only 4.5 going out. We have a lil over 300K in cap space. I'm assuming we don't re sign Tyutin no biggi curious why you want him in this proposal it just adds another 2m for a player we don't really need. Also we are still left exposing one of Hansen Baertschi. Which honestly left with no other options I would prefer to expose Granlund in a worst case sky is falling scenario as we have Sutter in that 3c hole and Virtanen could likely slide in on LW next to Sutter next season or even Rodin if he ever gets healthy.   

I agree with you. Tyutin really isn't needed. I just figured he may be needed to make rosters work. The meat of the deal is Duchene and the 31st overall pick, for Granlund, Sbisa, Subban our first round pick. (Expected to be in the 20s given Duchene's help on a playoff push.)

 

Next years lineups for both teams

 

Eriksson - Duchene - Sutter               Landeskog - Mackinnon - Rantannen

Sedin - Sedin - Hansen                       Grigorenko - (Hischer?) - Granlund 

Baertschi - Horvat - Boeser                Colborne - Soderberg - Nietto

Boucher - Gaunce - Virtanen              _________ - _________ - __________ (I'm not that deep into  the Avs franchise)

 

Edler - Tanev                                       Wiercioch Johnson (Similar to ours with more size)

Hutton - Gudbranson                          Sbisa Barrie (Similar to ours. 1 offensive, 1 defensive but Barrie is much better.)

Tryamkin - Stecher                              Zadorov Subban (Strangely similar to ours...)

 

Both teams walk out with a much improved need. Colorado addresses their blue line, and replaces Duchene with a less scoring forward. They still walk into next season with a Mackinon - Hischer or a Mackinnon - Nolan 1-2 punch center combo. Which is still the better of the two teams as well. Their team is younger and faster on the blue line, and they also move up a couple spots to get a better pick. The avs should be happy walking into next season with that group, and starting their rebuild off with 2 first round picks. Sign a free agent for the forwards and that's not a bad team at all.

 

Vancouver secures a fairly good number 1 center that balances out the rest of the forward lineup. The Sedins would flourish with second line minutes with Hansen, Eriksson and Sutter would play better with a Duchene, and Horvat finally gets his partner in crime for the future years at center. They lose a little bit of future, but with Virtanen and Boeser coming up at forward, and our D core looking like it's set in place, I'm not too worried. Demko becomes our top prospect and highest priority, and Brisebois along with our 2 2nd round JB picked studs refill the cupboard.

 

It's simply two teams trading extra assets, for the other teams dire needs. Colorado doesn't need Duchene. They need a younger, faster, more versatile defence. They have literally said that any deal needs either an NHL capable defensman, or a good defensive prospects. This gives them exactly what they asked for and follows the model and framework of 5 different recent deals. Nobody walks out the clear winner, but both sides get exactly what they needed.

 

Again you tell me which one of those superstar forwards fetched a better price.

 

Edit: It should also be noted that Sbisa and Subban are seen as high character guys in their lockerooms. Sbisa more than Subban being on the NHL level, but that is exactly what the Avs need. 

[Mr.53]

1 hour ago, DontMessMe said:

@Monty Would love to hear your opinion on this trade proposal LOL 

@DontMessMe I mean it's honestly a fair deal. I know it may not seem like it at first but that's because you really don't give any value to our players. A lot of people on this board overvalue other teams players and undervalue ours. According to history, this deal is excellent for both sides. Avs walk away with a better return than what Kesler, Lucic, Oshie, Hall, and Saad got, who are all comparables, and the deal is tailor made to the 2 things they asked for, an NHL calibre defensive defensman, and a defensive prospect. On top they assure ourselves a top pick, and a second first rounder and Markus Granlund to replace the young roster spot. That's great return according to recent history, you know it is.

 

It's ok to say it's a good proposal

 

• Hall got: A young defensive defensman in Larsson
• Lucic got: A prospect similar to Subban a 1st rounder, plus a decent prospect.
• Kesler got: Luca Sbisa literally, a lesser version of him, like Granlund, and a 1st round pick.
• Saad got: Anisimov, an NHL calibre role player (guy for Patrick Kane) and Marko Dano, a prospect very similar to Granlund, maybe a little better
• Oshie got: a player similar to Hansen in value. (Dare I say an NHL calibre role player?) a prospect that didnt pan, and a 3rd.

 

Not me. Recent history dictates these are the value of top 6 forward NHL players.

 

My deal has

1. 2 NHL calibre role players. 1 as a replacement piece, and one as a player who fills a need.
2. a prospect in the exact area they asked. Which works better especially if they get both defensmen
3. A first round pick somewhere in the 20s.

 

This deal was built to be similar to those other 5 deals. Each deal hits some areas, no deal is as good or hits all 3 areas. It's simply the best and realistic for both sides. Colorado would be wise to take the deal. This is Duchene's value.

 

[JustABandwagoner]

1 hour ago, Mr.53 said:

@DontMessMe I mean it's honestly a fair deal. I know it may not seem like it at first but that's because you really don't give any value to our players. A lot of people on this board overvalue other teams players and undervalue ours. According to history, this deal is excellent for both sides. Avs walk away with a better return than what Kesler, Lucic, Oshie, Hall, and Saad got, who are all comparables, and the deal is tailor made to the 2 things they asked for, an NHL calibre defensive defensman, and a defensive prospect. On top they assure ourselves a top pick, and a second first rounder and Markus Granlund to replace the young roster spot. That's great return according to recent history, you know it is.

 

It's ok to say it's a good proposal

 

• Hall got: A young defensive defensman in Larsson
• Lucic got: A prospect similar to Subban a 1st rounder, plus a decent prospect.
• Kesler got: Luca Sbisa literally, a lesser version of him, like Granlund, and a 1st round pick.
• Saad got: Anisimov, an NHL calibre role player (guy for Patrick Kane) and Marko Dano, a prospect very similar to Granlund, maybe a little better
• Oshie got: a player similar to Hansen in value. (Dare I say an NHL calibre role player?) a prospect that didnt pan, and a 3rd.

 

Not me. Recent history dictates these are the value of top 6 forward NHL players.

 

My deal has

1. 2 NHL calibre role players. 1 as a replacement piece, and one as a player who fills a need.
2. a prospect in the exact area they asked. Which works better especially if they get both defensmen
3. A first round pick somewhere in the 20s.

 

This deal was built to be similar to those other 5 deals. Each deal hits some areas, no deal is as good or hits all 3 areas. It's simply the best and realistic for both sides. Colorado would be wise to take the deal. This is Duchene's value.

 

1) I can tell you this. I respect your effort and the time your putting into this 

 

2) The prospect your giving them is honestly pretty bad.  Subban barely has any value. Sure, even tho hes an AHL all star, there have been doubts in management of him being able to translate it to the NHL game. 

 

3) Granlund is a 3rd line player 

 

4) Sbisa is a #6 D Man 

 

So we are offering 

 

3rd line player + #6 D man (They WANT Top 4 D Man) + C prospect + 1st round pick  FOR 1st line player (Duchene)  and a 2nd rounder 

 

To me, like someone earlier said these are ALL spare parts except that 1st rounder 

 

Granlund- Similar players can be found in free agency for FREE 

Sbisa- #6 D man nothing special. Can also be found in free agency 

Subban: Theres NOTHING absolutely NOTHING special about him. Ehh maybe his offensive abilities but hes small as fk. 

 

*The defensive prospect they want is a "Juolevi" type 

*As for the NHL caliber defensemen, not just any D men. A TOP 4. So Tanev 

 

Important fact: Burnaby Joe doesnt have to make a move. If he doesnt like the deal, he doesnt like it. He will keep Duchene. 

 

Honestly, the price for Duchene is insanely high

 

Personally, you'll never be able to convince me this particular deal is good for the Avs.  

 

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/insider-trading-avs-asking-a-high-price-for-landeskog~1032191

 

Landeskog asking price is: Top pairing D 1st round pick + more.. Go figures Duchene is about the same or more. Of course, its prob negotiable but the price is gonna be high 

 

Lets just not make a move

 

I applaud your efforts tho