Proposal (Duchene could end the rebuild)

[ice orca]

10 hours ago, Mr.53 said:

Yeah if someone posted Kesler for Bonino, Sbisa, and a late first, a lot of people would have laughed and said no way.

 

If someone posted Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson, everyone would have said hell no, you're crazy.

 

If you would have posted McCann for Gudbranson, the same thing.

 

You notice a pattern? Fans don't always get the value and real deals right.

 

If Colorado can fill multiple pieces they need especially knowing that a player like Hischer or Nolan is about to come back, it could happen. They cross off many boxes for their reset in one move. Duchene bringing back, Granlund, Sbisa, Subban, and a 1st is plenty.

Other teams will offer more than that crap.

[Mr.53]

13 hours ago, DontMessMe said:

1) I can tell you this. I respect your effort and the time your putting into this 

 

2) The prospect your giving them is honestly pretty bad.  Subban barely has any value. Sure, even tho hes an AHL all star, there have been doubts in management of him being able to translate it to the NHL game. 

 

3) Granlund is a 3rd line player 

 

4) Sbisa is a #6 D Man 

 

So we are offering 

 

3rd line player + #6 D man (They WANT Top 4 D Man) + C prospect + 1st round pick  FOR 1st line player (Duchene)  and a 2nd rounder 

 

To me, like someone earlier said these are ALL spare parts except that 1st rounder 

 

Granlund- Similar players can be found in free agency for FREE 

Sbisa- #6 D man nothing special. Can also be found in free agency 

Subban: Theres NOTHING absolutely NOTHING special about him. Ehh maybe his offensive abilities but hes small as fk. 

 

*The defensive prospect they want is a "Juolevi" type 

*As for the NHL caliber defensemen, not just any D men. A TOP 4. So Tanev 

 

Important fact: Burnaby Joe doesnt have to make a move. If he doesnt like the deal, he doesnt like it. He will keep Duchene. 

 

Honestly, the price for Duchene is insanely high

 

Personally, you'll never be able to convince me this particular deal is good for the Avs.  

 

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/insider-trading-avs-asking-a-high-price-for-landeskog~1032191

 

Landeskog asking price is: Top pairing D 1st round pick + more.. Go figures Duchene is about the same or more. Of course, its prob negotiable but the price is gonna be high 

 

Lets just not make a move

 

I applaud your efforts tho  

 

 

See this is the problem! I come at it with facts and historical data. You come at it with opinions. Your 'evidence' is basically you going "no way man. Granlund sucks. Subban sucks. Sbisa sucks. None of them hace any value whatsoever. Every piece we have with worthless, don't you know?"

 

I showed historical data of within the past couple season's of 5 star forwards that got traded for less packages and you just ignore it. What did Lucic bring back? What did Oshie?  What did Kesler? What did Hall, what did Saad. They brought back young middle 6 forwards, 2nd/3rd pairing defensive defensmen, and 1st/high round picks. 

 

Again that's 5 players that got less return than what I'm offering. But please, you can just revert back to your opinoins of "no way man." I argue with facts, research, data, and historical precedent, you just say I'm crazy cause you insist Canuck pieces must have no value in the league.

[Mr.53]

6 hours ago, DontMessMe said:

1) I can tell you this. I respect your effort and the time your putting into this 

 

2) The prospect your giving them is honestly pretty bad.  Subban barely has any value. Sure, even tho hes an AHL all star, there have been doubts in management of him being able to translate it to the NHL game. 

 

3) Granlund is a 3rd line player 

 

4) Sbisa is a #6 D Man 

 

So we are offering 

 

3rd line player + #6 D man (They WANT Top 4 D Man) + C prospect + 1st round pick  FOR 1st line player (Duchene)  and a 2nd rounder 

 

To me, like someone earlier said these are ALL spare parts except that 1st rounder 

 

Granlund- Similar players can be found in free agency for FREE 

Sbisa- #6 D man nothing special. Can also be found in free agency 

Subban: Theres NOTHING absolutely NOTHING special about him. Ehh maybe his offensive abilities but hes small as fk. 

 

*The defensive prospect they want is a "Juolevi" type 

*As for the NHL caliber defensemen, not just any D men. A TOP 4. So Tanev 

 

Important fact: Burnaby Joe doesnt have to make a move. If he doesnt like the deal, he doesnt like it. He will keep Duchene. 

 

Honestly, the price for Duchene is insanely high

 

Personally, you'll never be able to convince me this particular deal is good for the Avs.  

 

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/insider-trading-avs-asking-a-high-price-for-landeskog~1032191

 

Landeskog asking price is: Top pairing D 1st round pick + more.. Go figures Duchene is about the same or more. Of course, its prob negotiable but the price is gonna be high 

 

Lets just not make a move

 

I applaud your efforts tho  

 

 

Sorry, double post...

 

But again. I hear the "spare parts" argument, but that'show a lot of trades work. All 5 superstar forwards I meant were traded for "spare parts" and their "spare parts" were not even the calibre I'm suggesting. That's not my opinion sayng that, thats real world history.

 

You have no idea how trade negotiations work. One side like Colorado says, we want all your top players. Tanev, Juolevi, and a 1st. JB laughs and says I got a counter offer. Granlund and Sbisa. They meet at a middle ground. They get a defensive prospect like they asked, that isn't a 5th overall freakin pick. Sbisa, a defensive defensman with more toughness and less skill than Tanev, as well as still getting a first, and Granlund as a consolatory piece.

 

Show me the historical precedent in recent times for a forward like Duchene costing more than this package. I've given you multiple deals. Give me some. Only one I can think of would be maybe the phil Kessell trade but that was very weird with a lot of pieces. I have shown you 5 different star forwards that have been traded for "spare parts" and their team didn't give up all of their top guys and yes, they recieved a top 6 forward.

 

Duchene is good. He's not Tuyler Seguin or something. He's a 26 year old 2 time all star offensive player, who will be a ufa commanding top dollar soon. (Bo is a 21 year old 1 time all star two way player who oozes leadership... much more valuable. That's what guys like ROR and Landeskog are worth. Guys like Duchene are worth this.)

 

C Miller is similar to Jubban,  Brouwer to Hansen, Sbisa to Larsson and Anisimov, Dano to Granlund, and some late first round picks or better. none of these 5 star forwards brought in pieces any shinier or prettier than that. Again, this isn't me talking. It's not my opinion. So don't just come at me with yours. It's history and facts, so come at me with that. 

[smithers joe]

13 hours ago, Sbriggs said:

There no way in the world we would ever give up Bo, Tanev and a 1st for anyone on the Avs

i agree, but posters always want to trade players they feel are expendable for top line players. other gm's aren't stupid. they scout the players before any trade. 

[Mr.53]

Again people, look at history and real world case studies in the NHL over the past few years before you make a judgement. Don't worry, I did the work for you.

 

Taylor Hall's Return

1. Adam Larsson: A defensive defensman to join the team's core. Scores at about the same rate as Sbisa, but is like 2 years younger.

 

(My deal has an added forward, B level prospect and 1st round pick in value. Much better)

 

Brandon Saad's Return (roughly)

1. Artem Anisomov: A middle 6 role player who fit Chicago's need. A 2nd line center to play with Patrick Kane. Similar to Sbisa, a 2nd/3rd pairing defensive defensman who plays a much needed role. Defence on a team with none.
2. Marko Dano: At the time, a near NHL ready prospect, who didn't even make Chicago's team that year, Still he was a young versitile forward that showed promise and was trending upwards. Has middle 6 potential. Extremely similar to Granlund.

 

(My deal has an added blue line prospect like they want, and a first round pick in value. Much better.)

 

Ryan Kesler's Return

1. Nick Bonino: A younger downgrade at the position from Kesler. However was was still a capable NHLer, even if less so, and on a cheap and manageable contract. Sounds stangely similar like Granlund to Duchene
2. Luca Sbisa: At the time, literally the 6th or 7th defensman for the Ducks. Did a little bit of everything but didn't excel at anything. He's literally the same player but he's gotten older, and much better all around. So, i'm calling it even.
3. 1st round pick: This is where the real value for Kes came in and the reason we took the Bonino replacement.

 

(My deal has an extra prospect in value on the blue line like they want. Still better)

 

Milan Lucic's Return

1. Colin Miller: An undersized defensman who was about the same age Subban was at the time. maybe a little older. He showed capable AHL numbers and was able to produce on the blueline. He also had questions on whether he could translate his game... as pretty much all prospects do... That's why they're prospects. It's supposed to be a gamble. If they didn't have flaws then they wouldn't be prospects, they'd be NHL players... Miller was a late round pick with offensive upside from the blue line. Exactly like Subban, in fact I give Subban the edge.
2. Phoenix Copley: Who? Oh right a prospect with questions in his game. That's funny, again, not a Juolevi, Horvat type player, but rather dare I say, a C level prospect? Really, do you even know who Phoenic Copley is? I don't.
3. 1st rounder: The thing of most value, similar to the Kesler trade.

 

(My deal adds a needed role player, and an NHL calibre replacement. Can we just disregard this Copley fellow? honestly)

 

TJ Oshie's Return

1. Troy Brouwer: A middle 6 powerforward who puts up Jannik Hansen like numbers. Jannik Hansen and Granlund probably have similar value, except Granlund is much younger and can join a young core.
2. 3rd round pick: Not even a 1st! Are you kidding me?

 

(Say Subban equals the 3rd, and Granlund to Brouwer. My deal still has an NHL calibre role player as well as a first round pick in extra value)

 

 

This is what reality and history have dictated top 6 forwards values to be! So please, before you come up in here saying impact top 6 forwards like Duchene are worth Horvat, Juolevi, Tanev, a first, and your next first born child, look at the facts, and look at history. This is what star top 6 forwards are worth. People around here have a distorted view which is why they're always shocked at how low the returns for these players are. It happens all across the league and fans are always shocked and chagrinned. Well look at the trends, and take note. None, and I mean NONE of these 4 packages for star forwards is better than my proposal. And these are deals that actually happened.

 

Don't let anybody else tell you otherwise because it's literally not based in fact. In the words of the Big Lebowski, which I just watched. "That's just like, your opinion man." This right here is facts. Now I'll get to my proposal, and you tell me if it doesn't seem fair and in line with these other star forwards if not better.

 

(My proposed Duchene return)

1. Markus Granlund: Currently a middle 6 forward who has lots of upward potential. Already a capable NHL role player, and is only going to get better. 
2. Luca Sbisa: A capable, defensive defensman who can play second pairing minutes. Makes their team younger, faster, stronger, and better from the blue line, exactly like they asked.
3. Jordan Subban: A good prospect with some questions, like all prospects have. (Remember, it was only a few months ago, Stecher had the same questions people) Not the best prospect we have, but a valued addition to the Avs stale D core, and cupbaord. Could get minutes as soon as next year.
4. 1st round pick: Granted we get their second, but still a first round pick.

 

The Avs would be reciving better return than any of the other top 5 players in this deal. Plus they get the 2 things they asked for, a good player as a consolatory piece, and another first round pick to add onto their likely first overall pick. It's an excellent proposal and comparing it to other real deals proves it.

 

The avs have said pieces they are interested in for a deal. 

1. NHL calibre defensive defensman. (check)
2. Defensive prospect, preferably further along in development. (check)
3. A first round pick for their future. (check)
4. On top, I throw in Granlund to replace Duchene as a lesser middle 6 forward rather than a top 6 forward. (check)

 

Now every deal is different but considering we cross off all their check boxes in 1 swoop, and they have a guy lie Hischer on the way, this is a good two-way deal. People on this forum lose track of what players, like 1 way scoring forwards are actually worth in this league. You want value, you get that from 2 way defensive players and prospects, like Yandle, hamilton, and Juolevi. 

 

The Avs hit all their checkmarks on their trade block, get better value than what other clubs got for star forwards like Hall for Edmonton, Saad for Chicago, Kesler for us, Lucic for Boston, and Oshie St Louis. They still get first overall (likely) and come into next year a better team. Sign a free agent or two and their competitive again. In return, the Canucks get the best player in the deal. How is that not fair???

 

[Where'd Luongo?]

14 hours ago, vinny_in_vancouver said:

I think you're the one that's not understanding this - there are many types of negotiations. I can't believe you're comparing this to a used car sale. In a used car buying example, you have a motivated seller (the car's occupying space in the lot and the car's depreciating like crazy) and a motivated buyer (I need to get from point A to point B and the transit doesn't get me there fast enough). A better comparison would be: I own a startup company that's generating me 10 million dollars in revenue a year, but I'm thinking of retiring very early. Duchene's young, very productive, not a cancer to the team. The only reason he's on the market is because they want a star D-man in return. This is very similar to the Seth Jones-Ryan Johansen trade.

Actually I used 3 examples, all of which involved trading something for something else. Your example doesn't involve any sort of negotiating at all, I'm unsure of what you are trying to prove with that example. There are many types of negotiations, all of which use similar tactics to get the best deal. Hence me using several examples of different types of negotiations that can all be related back to trading players. Do some research.

 

Let's use your analysis of my example that you so hated:

 

Motivated seller (car occupying space and depreciating) = Duchene (taking up a roster spot and in his prime, meaning he will only get worse from here)

Motivated buyer (I need to get from point A to point B and transit doesn't get me there fast enough) = Canucks (need to score goals and current roster doesn't score enough)

 

Tell me again how this is a poor example? It seems to fit perfectly.

 

You're right, it is similar to a Seth Jones - Ryan Johansen trade, but with Duchene being two years older (which is significant). Honestly I'm unsure of why you decided to tear apart my post when you and I seem to be on the same page.

 

14 hours ago, DontMessMe said:

Trade doesnt have to happen. So.. 

That's right, it doesn't. Hence why it's dumb to give them the farm for a player. You make a solid offer, they counter, if it's not acceptable then the trade doesn't happen. That's how negotiating works.

[hammertime]

Your not really making the Avs better here. The best piece going their way is a mid-late 1st in a weak draft. You have written essays on the value but hardly addressed the Avalanches needs.  

[stuman491]

On 15/01/2017 at 3:12 PM, SwedeHockey said:

What does the Hall deal have to do with this proposal? That was widely regarded as lopsided trade. The Oils were dealing from a position of weakness. 

 

Anyways, Sbisa and Granlund (plus the rest of the package) will not get you close to Duchene. 

Totally agree with you on the Oilers trade.

 

I think the value on OP's trade is off right now.  However if Sbisa continues to improve as he has this season maybe he can be a legit top 4 d man.  If Granlund is able to sustain his recent offensive output then he becomes significantly more valuable as a trade commodity.  If all this does happen though, I'd probably rather just keep Sbisa and Granlund.

[Vinny in Vancouver]

19 minutes ago, Where'd Luongo? said:

Actually I used 3 examples, all of which involved trading something for something else. Your example doesn't involve any sort of negotiating at all, I'm unsure of what you are trying to prove with that example. There are many types of negotiations, all of which use similar tactics to get the best deal. Hence me using several examples of different types of negotiations that can all be related back to trading players. Do some research.

 

Let's use your analysis of my example that you so hated:

 

Motivated seller (car occupying space and depreciating) = Duchene (taking up a roster spot and in his prime, meaning he will only get worse from here)

Motivated buyer (I need to get from point A to point B and transit doesn't get me there fast enough) = Canucks (need to score goals and current roster doesn't score enough)

 

Tell me again how this is a poor example? It seems to fit perfectly.

Actually, my company just got sold to a publicly traded company, and the negotiations took over 1 year and we were approached by a few companies. We weren't motivated sellers - if the deal fell through, no biggie; we were profitable. I do a lot of high-priced negotiations for my company so I think I know a bit about negotiations. At this point in the season, I would argue that the Avs are in a similar situation as my company were in - they have a lot of options: they can trade Duchene now or wait until the summer to trade him or even try to sign him long-term at possibly a cheap price. As far as him being a depreciating asset which would imply that his best seasons are behind him, that's a stretch - consider:

• He is having a so-so season, but so is the rest of his team as they seem to be poorly coached.
• He is just 3 points behind star Nathan Mackinnon who has played 4 more games.
• His plus-minus is at the same level as Mackinnon. 
• He scored 30 goals just last season. 
• Duchene played for Team Canada which shows that a lot of other people in influence think highly of him.
• In the past 4 seasons, he has played a relatively high number of games which shows that he's not injury-prone.

The only thing I can think of that can make them motivated sellers is if they think they can win the championship now and just need that remaining piece, but their team's going nowhere as it is.

[Where'd Luongo?]

13 minutes ago, vinny_in_vancouver said:

Actually, my company just got sold to a publicly traded company, and the negotiations took over 1 year and we were approached by a few companies. We weren't motivated sellers - if the deal fell through, no biggie; we were profitable. I do a lot of high-priced negotiations for my company so I think I know a bit about negotiations. At this point in the season, I would argue that the Avs are in a similar situation as my company were in - they have a lot of options: they can trade Duchene now or wait until the summer to trade him or even try to sign him long-term at possibly a cheap price. As far as him being a depreciating asset which would imply that his best seasons are behind him, that's a stretch - consider:

• He is having a so-so season, but so is the rest of his team as they seem to be poorly coached.
• He is just 3 points behind star Nathan Mackinnon who has played 4 more games.
• His plus-minus is at the same level as Mackinnon. 
• He scored 30 goals just last season. 
• Duchene played for Team Canada which shows that a lot of other people in influence think highly of him.
• In the past 4 seasons, he has played a relatively high number of games which shows that he's not injury-prone.

The only thing I can think of that can make them motivated sellers is if they think they can win the championship now and just need that remaining piece, but their team's going nowhere as it is.

Thanks, without explaining that situation it really made no sense as there was no discussion of negotiation. I personally believe that Duchene will have 3 more seasons at the current rate (not better unless he has better linemates), and at that point he will regress. I stated he is IN his prime, where-as Johansen is not yet there. 

 

Your last sentence is where we differ in opinion. I believe they are motivated sellers NOT because they want to win now, but because they realize that this group isn't going to get it done and need to reset. As you said, the team is going nowhere as it is. They need a good defenseman, and we all know what happens if you sit on your good players instead of trading when they are valuable.

 

If we were in top spot in the league, I bet we'd consider trading Juolevi for Duchene to make a run for the cup (Montreal).

 

Lastly, if you know a lot about negotiations then you should know that I was correct regarding tactics (I also deal with high price negotiations in my career). Did you sell your business for the first price they threw at you? I doubt it.

[Mr.53]

1 hour ago, hammertime said:

Your not really making the Avs better here. The best piece going their way is a mid-late 1st in a weak draft. You have written essays on the value but hardly addressed the Avalanches needs.  

Disagree. I've written exactly about what the avs needs are. Again, that's not my opinion what their needs are. They have stated them. The Avs have said literally they want 

 

• An NHL calibre defensive defensman, aka Sbisa. (Apparently he doesn't count anymore because he has flaws and doesn't put up points like most defensmen).
• A mobile defensive prospect, aka Jordan Subban (Apparently he doesn't count anymore because he's not a perfect prospect, and has flaws like most prospects)
• A first round pick to jump start their future and bare cupboard of prospects. Aka a first round pick. (Oh but apparently those have no value either.)
• On top they get a consolatory piece that can still play a role on their team for now and the near future.

 

There I addressed the Avs needs as according to what they said they want point by point. So if I address each and every want they have on the trading block, and the deal matches and exceeds recent historical value for a top 6 forward, how am I still the one that get's called crazy? Just because we don't overpay and give up the farm doesn't mean it's unrealistic. EDM, NJ, LA, STL, and us, the Canucks, didn't recieve crazy, outlandish returns like future captions, 5th overall picks, plus. Why would Duchene in Colorado. 

 

Either you trade for a bunch of "spare parts" that fill your need, or you do a straight up hockey trade like a Seth Jones - Ryan Johansen deal. People around here want us to give us to give both for a top 6 forward who turns into a UFA after a couple seasons. Please...

 

And @SwedeHockey, what does the Hall trade have to do with this? It helps gauge the value of top 6 forwards in this league. Alone, it means nothing, but when you look at it in conjuncture with other deals all around the league you get to see a pattern. 5 all star top 6 forwards and not one of them brought in a package better than Granlund, Sbisa, Subban, and a 1st. Most brought in 2 or 3 of the 4, but none of them brought in all 4. Again, it's just real world history rather than my hunch.

 

Fans overvalue scorers and undervalue defensive defensmen. That is what the Taylor Hall trade showed. It didn't show that Edmonton got fleeced, but rather showed just how much a team is willing to pay for a guy to keep pucks out of the net. Just like we were willing to pay a future top 6 center. Fast forward to the next season and how are the Devils doing with Taylor Hall? The guy is putting up points but the team is faltering and they need defensive help. Over in Edmonton, they get the non scoring defensive defensman and would you look at that? The team is balanced out and now in a playoff spot.

 

It just just goes to show you that defensmen that keep pucks out of the net, have similar value to value that put pucks in the net. What a shocking revelation. It just matters where your team has the need. 

 

And no to anyone else who says, these are just players you can pick up in free agency anyway. That is wrong! Give sbisa credit for what he's worth. He's not a bumb. He's an NHL calibre defensive defensman. Just because he doesn't put up points does not mean he's worthless. There are other aspects to a hockey team. 

[JustABandwagoner]

9 minutes ago, Mr.53 said:

Disagree. I've written exactly about what the avs needs are. Again, that's not my opinion what their needs are. They have stated them. The Avs have said literally they want 

 

• An NHL calibre defensive defensman, aka Sbisa. (Apparently he doesn't count anymore because he has flaws and doesn't put up points like most defensmen).
• A mobile defensive prospect, aka Jordan Subban (Apparently he doesn't count anymore because he's not a perfect prospect, and has flaws like most prospects)
• A first round pick to jump start their future and bare cupboard of prospects. Aka a first round pick. (Oh but apparently those have no value either.)
• On top they get a consolatory piece that can still play a role on their team for now and the near future.

 

There I addressed the Avs needs as according to what they said they want point by point. So if I address each and every want they have on the trading block, and the deal matches and exceeds recent historical value for a top 6 forward, how am I still the one that get's called crazy? Just because we don't overpay and give up the farm doesn't mean it's unrealistic. EDM, NJ, LA, STL, and us, the Canucks, didn't recieve crazy, outlandish returns like future captions, 5th overall picks, plus. Why would Duchene in Colorado. 

 

Either you trade for a bunch of "spare parts" that fill your need, or you do a straight up hockey trade like a Seth Jones - Ryan Johansen deal. People around here want us to give us to give both for a top 6 forward who turns into a UFA after a couple seasons. Please...

 

And @SwedeHockey, what does the Hall trade have to do with this? It helps gauge the value of top 6 forwards in this league. Alone, it means nothing, but when you look at it in conjuncture with other deals all around the league you get to see a pattern. 5 all star top 6 forwards and not one of them brought in a package better than Granlund, Sbisa, Subban, and a 1st. Most brought in 2 or 3 of the 4, but none of them brought in all 4. Again, it's just real world history rather than my hunch.

 

Fans overvalue scorers and undervalue defensive defensmen. That is what the Taylor Hall trade showed. It didn't show that Edmonton got fleeced, but rather showed just how much a team is willing to pay for a guy to keep pucks out of the net. Just like we were willing to pay a future top 6 center. Fast forward to the next season and how are the Devils doing with Taylor Hall? The guy is putting up points but the team is faltering and they need defensive help. Over in Edmonton, they get the non scoring defensive defensman and would you look at that? The team is balanced out and now in a playoff spot.

 

It just just goes to show you that defensmen that keep pucks out of the net, have similar value to value that put pucks in the net. What a shocking revelation. It just matters where your team has the need. 

 

And no to anyone else who says, these are just players you can pick up in free agency anyway. That is wrong! Give sbisa credit for what he's worth. He's not a bumb. He's an NHL calibre defensive defensman. Just because he doesn't put up points does not mean he's worthless. There are other aspects to a hockey team. 

I think the Avs said they wanted a TOP 4 D. Not just any random spare NHL calibre D men. Subban is not a "B" prospect. Hes a "C". Many many questions around him. Avs have set a high price thats why duchene wont be traded. He DOESNT HAVE TO BE TRADED. You sound like "Avs must trade duchene or else..." 

 

Anyways this post will go nowhere tbh LOL.

[Alflives]

21 minutes ago, DontMessMe said:

I think the Avs said they wanted a TOP 4 D. Not just any random spare NHL calibre D men. Subban is not a "B" prospect. Hes a "C". Many many questions around him. Avs have set a high price thats why duchene wont be traded. He DOESNT HAVE TO BE TRADED. You sound like "Avs must trade duchene or else..." 

 

Anyways this post will go nowhere tbh LOL.

Maybe .Duchene (26) is too old for our purposes anyway?  

[hammertime]

35 minutes ago, Mr.53 said:

Disagree. I've written exactly about what the avs needs are. Again, that's not my opinion what their needs are. They have stated them. The Avs have said literally they want 

 

• An NHL calibre defensive defensman, aka Sbisa. (Apparently he doesn't count anymore because he has flaws and doesn't put up points like most defensmen).
• A mobile defensive prospect, aka Jordan Subban (Apparently he doesn't count anymore because he's not a perfect prospect, and has flaws like most prospects)
• A first round pick to jump start their future and bare cupboard of prospects. Aka a first round pick. (Oh but apparently those have no value either.)
• On top they get a consolatory piece that can still play a role on their team for now and the near future.

 

There I addressed the Avs needs as according to what they said they want point by point. So if I address each and every want they have on the trading block, and the deal matches and exceeds recent historical value for a top 6 forward, how am I still the one that get's called crazy? Just because we don't overpay and give up the farm doesn't mean it's unrealistic. EDM, NJ, LA, STL, and us, the Canucks, didn't recieve crazy, outlandish returns like future captions, 5th overall picks, plus. Why would Duchene in Colorado. 

 

Either you trade for a bunch of "spare parts" that fill your need, or you do a straight up hockey trade like a Seth Jones - Ryan Johansen deal. People around here want us to give us to give both for a top 6 forward who turns into a UFA after a couple seasons. Please...

 

And @SwedeHockey, what does the Hall trade have to do with this? It helps gauge the value of top 6 forwards in this league. Alone, it means nothing, but when you look at it in conjuncture with other deals all around the league you get to see a pattern. 5 all star top 6 forwards and not one of them brought in a package better than Granlund, Sbisa, Subban, and a 1st. Most brought in 2 or 3 of the 4, but none of them brought in all 4. Again, it's just real world history rather than my hunch.

 

Fans overvalue scorers and undervalue defensive defensmen. That is what the Taylor Hall trade showed. It didn't show that Edmonton got fleeced, but rather showed just how much a team is willing to pay for a guy to keep pucks out of the net. Just like we were willing to pay a future top 6 center. Fast forward to the next season and how are the Devils doing with Taylor Hall? The guy is putting up points but the team is faltering and they need defensive help. Over in Edmonton, they get the non scoring defensive defensman and would you look at that? The team is balanced out and now in a playoff spot.

 

It just just goes to show you that defensmen that keep pucks out of the net, have similar value to value that put pucks in the net. What a shocking revelation. It just matters where your team has the need. 

 

And no to anyone else who says, these are just players you can pick up in free agency anyway. That is wrong! Give sbisa credit for what he's worth. He's not a bumb. He's an NHL calibre defensive defensman. Just because he doesn't put up points does not mean he's worthless. There are other aspects to a hockey team. 

They need a top pairing D not a bottom pairing D and a 3rd line utility forward who has had a decent half a season with nearly 11million worth of line mates. Granlund Sbisa are depth players not that they have no value but they don't make the Avs any better. Which is you know the point of making the trade at all. If you want to acquire a top line talent you have to offer something that considerably improves the other team in an area they are weak. I get that you feel strongly that the value is fair I won't bother arguing that with you as you may as well copy and paste you previous essays. Your just not offering anything they don't already have in abundance. If the best piece in your trade is a mid to late first in a weak draft then your not really offering much of need.

 

But hey I'm rooting for you to be right.

[Mr.53]

Ok. You guys won't listen to facts. I've done my part in trying to actually bring insight through real trades and case studies that have happened.  The avs are not in abundance on defensman which is why they asked for one. And they are not in abundance on defensive prospects, which is why they asked for one. A player names Colin Miller was very similar to Subban when he was traded. Turns out, him, plus a 1st round pick and a throw away prospect got the deal done for Milan Lucic. You people insist that Luca Sbisa has no value, but I think I've shown facts that, what you say isn't true. Both Larsson and Gudbranson were, and are regarded as second pairing defensmen when traded for forward counterparts. Sbisa produces offensively at similar rates, and defensively at similar rates. (Technically his plus minus shows pretty good although not the best indicator.) And don't give me this nonsense about Granlund only being a top 9 player that you can find anywhere easily. Please. It literally took us offering up one of our most beloved prospects in Sinkaruk, a former first round pick, to get him.

 

I'm so sick of poeple around here undervaluing our pieces and players because they're ours. Yeah, the Avs want Horvat, Juolevi, a 1st, and maybe a free dinner too for Duchene. Yeah of course. Sakic tells that price to JB and he laughs. And JB wants Duchene for Sbisa, Subban and a second. He tells JB that, and he laughs. They work on a deal, and meet somewhere in the middle. Instead of Horvat, (lol) you get Granlund. Instead of Juolevi (lol), you get Subban. Vancouver adds a young roster player that you said you need, a 2nd pairing defensive defensman, (and make no mistake Sbisa is a 2nd pairing defensive defensman and PKer, especially on Colorado) and a first round pick for good measure. Go draft. Remember McCann and Shinkaruk were 24th overall picks. Colorado adds a their second on top, everyone walks away a winner. That is exactly why real world trades have shown to end up being. You guys are forgetting the fact that Duchene obviously does not want to be in Colorado anymore. It's evident from his interviews, but he's being polite. Him and Roy have butted heads before, and they know they see a different avenue with Mackninnon - first overall, down the middle. Duchene needs a new fresh team, and here he will join a new atmosphere and hopefully excell with more structure.

 

Legit top 6 forward for a good prospect, a first, and a roster player, like in all the trades I've listed. You guys have yet to show me some counter trades in recent years. Recent times have shown this is fair. In fact this is more than fair. If Kesler, Oshie, Lucic, Saad, and Hall all couldn't bring their teams back guys like a Horvat, Juolevi, first round pick +, why would Duchene? If they all brought back returns like Colin Miller, and a first round pick, or Artem Anisimov and Marko Dano, or Bonino, Sbisa, and a First, type of packages, why all of a sudden for Duchene is the "fair" asking price Horvat, Juolevi, plus?

 

But anyway, please, prove to me i'm wrong. We've had enough back and forth, I feel this, I think that. Use some real world history and facts to prove your point. I'm not a guy that's against a good debate. But when one side uses facts, and the other side uses "hahaha no way man... Those guys suck. That could never happen," when the other guy literally just gave 5-7 deals where it did happen, it becomes a little ridiculous.

 

I used facts, please, use some against me.

[JustABandwagoner]

10 minutes ago, Mr.53 said:

Ok. You guys won't listen to facts. I've done my part in trying to actually bring insight through real trades and case studies that have happened.  The avs are not in abundance on defensman which is why they asked for one. And they are not in abundance on defensive prospects, which is why they asked for one. A player names Colin Miller was very similar to Subban when he was traded. Turns out, him, plus a 1st round pick and a throw away prospect got the deal done for Milan Lucic. You people insist that Luca Sbisa has no value, but I think I've shown facts that, what you say isn't true. Both Larsson and Gudbranson were, and are regarded as second pairing defensmen when traded for forward counterparts. Sbisa produces offensively at similar rates, and defensively at similar rates. (Technically his plus minus shows pretty good although not the best indicator.) And don't give me this nonsense about Granlund only being a top 9 player that you can find anywhere easily. Please. It literally took us offering up one of our most beloved prospects in Sinkaruk, a former first round pick, to get him.

 

I'm so sick of poeple around here undervaluing our pieces and players because they're ours. Yeah, the Avs want Horvat, Juolevi, a 1st, and maybe a free dinner too for Duchene. Yeah of course. Sakic tells that price to JB and he laughs. And JB wants Duchene for Sbisa, Subban and a second. He tells JB that, and he laughs. They work on a deal, and meet somewhere in the middle. Vancouver adds Granlund, and a first, Colorado adds a their second on top, everyone walks away a winner. That is exactly why real world trades have shown to end up being

 

Legit top 6 forward for a good prospect, a first, and a roster player, like in all the trades I've listed. You guys have yet to show me some counter trades in recent years. Recent times have shown this is fair. In fact this is more than fair. If Kesler, Oshie, Lucic, Saad, and Hall all couldn't bring their teams back guys like a Horvat, Juolevi, first round pick +, why would Duchene? If they all brought back returns like Colin Miller, and a first round pick, or Artem Anisimov and Marko Dano, or Bonino, Sbisa, and a First, type of packages, why all of a sudden for Duchene is the "fair" asking price Horvat, Juolevi, plus?

 

But anyway, please, prove to me i'm wrong. We've had enough back and forth, I feel this, I think that. Use some real world history and facts to prove your point. I'm not a guy that's against a good debate. But when one side uses facts, and the other side uses "hahaha no way man... Those guys suck. That could never happen," when the other guy literally just gave 5-7 deals where it did happen, it becomes a little ridiculous.

 

I used facts, please, use some against me.

Granlund is NOT top 6. He is 3rd line player. Thats what im trying to say 

How is Subban a good prospect. Ur $&!#ting me. 

 

 

 

[hammertime]

[Mr.53]

52 minutes ago, DontMessMe said:

Granlund is NOT top 6. Thats what im trying to say 

How is Subban a good prospect. Ur $&!#ting me. 

 

Granlund is a middle 6 forward. You disagree? And this is merely his first full year in the league. Please don't tell me you don't tell me that you think basically a 23 year old rookie is fully done growing as a player are you? He's already a middle 6 player bouncing around 2nd and 3rd line. That's not bad. In this league you're not just 1st, 2nd, or 3rd, line. You range in what you can do. Granlund is middle 6, Duchene is top 6. Duchene is playing second line most nights to Nathan Mackinnon but he can also play first line. Duchene is top 6, Granlund is middle 6.

 

Jordan Subban is a 21 year old AHL all star. Doing so, I might add, playing the role of lone superstar number 1 defensman, even being undersized. Yeah, he has flaws, that's why he's a prospect. But to say a 21 year old All star defensman who leads his team (depending on the day) with 21 points so far is a bad prospect, you are delusional. No, you just, as I have been saying, undervalue our prospects because they are ours. And maybe that's not fair, because when Shinkaruk was a second year AHL all star we were talking about how he was a top prospect and was so awesome. Subban is a second year all star and he's a 'C prospect.' Not even a B? And I know he plays D, Shinkaruk plays forward, yada, yada. But not even a B? Come on, stop undervaluing our players. Stecher was just an undersized prospect a couple months ago too.

 

If Colin Miller, a 1st, and a throw away prospect was good enough for Lucic, Subban, a 1st, Granlund, and Sbisa, is good enough for Duchene. That's what I'm trying to say.

[Mr.53]

3 minutes ago, hammertime said:

Sorry. That's fair. Hahahaha, but I mean everyone. I see people making outragous posts one place or another, and then people act smug when they're not giving real facts, but rather hunches they got from hearing other biased fans. Look at the history books, and see a pattern. Pattern says Granlund, Sbisa, Subban, and a 1st round pick, fits the bill and is more than fair in every way, by every marker.

[qwijibo]

3 hours ago, Mr.53 said:

Again people, look at history and real world case studies in the NHL over the past few years before you make a judgement. Don't worry, I did the work for you.

 

Taylor Hall's Return

1. Adam Larsson: A defensive defensman to join the team's core. Scores at about the same rate as Sbisa, but is like 2 years younger.

 

(My deal has an added forward, B level prospect and 1st round pick in value. Much better)

 

Brandon Saad's Return (roughly)

1. Artem Anisomov: A middle 6 role player who fit Chicago's need. A 2nd line center to play with Patrick Kane. Similar to Sbisa, a 2nd/3rd pairing defensive defensman who plays a much needed role. Defence on a team with none.
2. Marko Dano: At the time, a near NHL ready prospect, who didn't even make Chicago's team that year, Still he was a young versitile forward that showed promise and was trending upwards. Has middle 6 potential. Extremely similar to Granlund.

 

(My deal has an added blue line prospect like they want, and a first round pick in value. Much better.)

 

Ryan Kesler's Return

1. Nick Bonino: A younger downgrade at the position from Kesler. However was was still a capable NHLer, even if less so, and on a cheap and manageable contract. Sounds stangely similar like Granlund to Duchene
2. Luca Sbisa: At the time, literally the 6th or 7th defensman for the Ducks. Did a little bit of everything but didn't excel at anything. He's literally the same player but he's gotten older, and much better all around. So, i'm calling it even.
3. 1st round pick: This is where the real value for Kes came in and the reason we took the Bonino replacement.

 

(My deal has an extra prospect in value on the blue line like they want. Still better)

 

Milan Lucic's Return

1. Colin Miller: An undersized defensman who was about the same age Subban was at the time. maybe a little older. He showed capable AHL numbers and was able to produce on the blueline. He also had questions on whether he could translate his game... as pretty much all prospects do... That's why they're prospects. It's supposed to be a gamble. If they didn't have flaws then they wouldn't be prospects, they'd be NHL players... Miller was a late round pick with offensive upside from the blue line. Exactly like Subban, in fact I give Subban the edge.
2. Phoenix Copley: Who? Oh right a prospect with questions in his game. That's funny, again, not a Juolevi, Horvat type player, but rather dare I say, a C level prospect? Really, do you even know who Phoenic Copley is? I don't.
3. 1st rounder: The thing of most value, similar to the Kesler trade.

 

(My deal adds a needed role player, and an NHL calibre replacement. Can we just disregard this Copley fellow? honestly)

 

TJ Oshie's Return

1. Troy Brouwer: A middle 6 powerforward who puts up Jannik Hansen like numbers. Jannik Hansen and Granlund probably have similar value, except Granlund is much younger and can join a young core.
2. 3rd round pick: Not even a 1st! Are you kidding me?

 

(Say Subban equals the 3rd, and Granlund to Brouwer. My deal still has an NHL calibre role player as well as a first round pick in extra value)

 

 

This is what reality and history have dictated top 6 forwards values to be! So please, before you come up in here saying impact top 6 forwards like Duchene are worth Horvat, Juolevi, Tanev, a first, and your next first born child, look at the facts, and look at history. This is what star top 6 forwards are worth. People around here have a distorted view which is why they're always shocked at how low the returns for these players are. It happens all across the league and fans are always shocked and chagrinned. Well look at the trends, and take note. None, and I mean NONE of these 4 packages for star forwards is better than my proposal. And these are deals that actually happened.

 

Don't let anybody else tell you otherwise because it's literally not based in fact. In the words of the Big Lebowski, which I just watched. "That's just like, your opinion man." This right here is facts. Now I'll get to my proposal, and you tell me if it doesn't seem fair and in line with these other star forwards if not better.

 

(My proposed Duchene return)

1. Markus Granlund: Currently a middle 6 forward who has lots of upward potential. Already a capable NHL role player, and is only going to get better. 
2. Luca Sbisa: A capable, defensive defensman who can play second pairing minutes. Makes their team younger, faster, stronger, and better from the blue line, exactly like they asked.
3. Jordan Subban: A good prospect with some questions, like all prospects have. (Remember, it was only a few months ago, Stecher had the same questions people) Not the best prospect we have, but a valued addition to the Avs stale D core, and cupbaord. Could get minutes as soon as next year.
4. 1st round pick: Granted we get their second, but still a first round pick.

 

The Avs would be reciving better return than any of the other top 5 players in this deal. Plus they get the 2 things they asked for, a good player as a consolatory piece, and another first round pick to add onto their likely first overall pick. It's an excellent proposal and comparing it to other real deals proves it.

 

The avs have said pieces they are interested in for a deal. 

1. NHL calibre defensive defensman. (check)
2. Defensive prospect, preferably further along in development. (check)
3. A first round pick for their future. (check)
4. On top, I throw in Granlund to replace Duchene as a lesser middle 6 forward rather than a top 6 forward. (check)

 

Now every deal is different but considering we cross off all their check boxes in 1 swoop, and they have a guy lie Hischer on the way, this is a good two-way deal. People on this forum lose track of what players, like 1 way scoring forwards are actually worth in this league. You want value, you get that from 2 way defensive players and prospects, like Yandle, hamilton, and Juolevi. 

 

The Avs hit all their checkmarks on their trade block, get better value than what other clubs got for star forwards like Hall for Edmonton, Saad for Chicago, Kesler for us, Lucic for Boston, and Oshie St Louis. They still get first overall (likely) and come into next year a better team. Sign a free agent or two and their competitive again. In return, the Canucks get the best player in the deal. How is that not fair???

 

Try a little context. 

Edmonton identified a player they wanted badly and had the excess assets to make it happen.  Widely regarded as a massive overpayment by Edmonton. 

 

Saad was a cap casualty in Chicago.  Team was dealing from a position of extreme weakness.  Had to take underpayment. 

 

Lucic was an upcoming UFA. The package LA paid for him was for a very short term rental 

 

Kesler demanded a trade and used his NMC to limit his destination.   Vancouver was dealing from. Position of extreme weakness. Essentially had to take what they could get. 

 

 

None of these trades have anything remotely in common with a  Duschene trade.  Colorado will make him available IF it makes sense and improves their team.  Depth players aren't going to get it done.