Future is better than most see it

[Baggins]

8 hours ago, theilluminati said:

Ummm...what the hell are you talking about.??...I posted 2 FACTS and the only moronic thing oldnews did to "refute" them was to call them "absurd claims". So when he "refutes" facts by calling them "absurd claims" that somehow makes him honest? Your. Brain. Clearly. Does. Not. Work. Hopefully spelling it out like this will clarify your bizarre stance.

Well your two "facts" were absurd. True maybe, but still absurd. Taking a players average of two seasons and comparing it to single season production is nothing short of absurd. You did it purely to minimize Gaudette's improvement over last year. The "fact" is, and remains, Gaudette is among the top of the league "this season". Can you refute that fact?

[CanucksJay]

On 28/01/2017 at 8:18 PM, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Please, Bertuzzi in his prime was one of the best forwards in the league (forget just "power forward").  5th overall in points in the 2002-03 season.

 

Part of the reason for that was Nazzy forming the other half of the dynamic duo (who was THE most lethal left winger in the league - 2nd overall in points that season as well).

 

While Morrison was no true #1 center - he was a very respectable #2 center that was able to handle the defensive duties required on that line.  Definately not chopped liver.

 

All three formed the deadly WCE.

 

Expecting Virt to be anywhere near Bert isn't realistic.

As one of the biggest Todd Bertuzzi fans, I do see some similarities between him and Virtanen and I don't think the comparison is way off. 

The Isles gave up on Bertuzzi when we traded an over the hill Trevor Linden for both Bryan McCabe AND Todd Bertuzzi. 

I think he first rocked number 27 when he got here but it was a mediocre season at best. In his draft +5 year, between new York and Vancouver, he had 13 goals and 20 assists. 

It wasn't until draft +7 year that he broke 20 goals. People were questioning Bert's hockey IQ as well during that time. 

What I can say unequivocally is that Virtanen at the same age as Bert is faster, hits harder and has a better shot. 

Their hockey IQs are similar. 

It's honestly way too early to give up on Virtanen or put an artificial ceiling on him. 

I would be more likely to write him off if he was small and slow but that is not the case. There's too many tools in the tool belt to just walk away so quickly. 

This is Jake's draft plus 3 year.  Let's give him minimum of draft + 5-7 years  before writing  him off.  I'm positive in 4 more years, he'll hit 25 goals like Bert. 

 

 

 

[D-Money]

Sure, Horvat, Boeser, Juolevi, and Demko are promising young players/prospects. But guess what? Other teams have those too, and often more of them and/or with even higher ceilings.

 

Winnipeg: Laine, Scheifele, Trouba, Ehlers, Connor, Hellebuyck, Morrissey, Dano, Lemieux, Armia...

Edmonton: McDavid, Draisatl, Poolparty, Nurse, Caggiula, Ellis...

Arizona: Domi, Strome, Chychrun, Dvorak, Merkley, Wood, Dauphin, Hill, Fischer...+ top 2017 pick

Colorado: MacKinnon, Rantanen, Greer, Bigras, Beaudin...+ top 2017 pick + haul for Duchesne/Landeskog

 

And that is just Western teams. So even if all our guys pan out (very unlikely), having a Stanley Cup contending team is far from a certainty.

 

 

[kanucks25]

2 hours ago, D-Money said:

Sure, Horvat, Boeser, Juolevi, and Demko are promising young players/prospects. But guess what? Other teams have those too, and often more of them and/or with even higher ceilings.

 

Winnipeg: Laine, Scheifele, Trouba, Ehlers, Connor, Hellebuyck, Morrissey, Dano, Lemieux, Armia...

Edmonton: McDavid, Draisatl, Poolparty, Nurse, Caggiula, Ellis...

Arizona: Domi, Strome, Chychrun, Dvorak, Merkley, Wood, Dauphin, Hill, Fischer...+ top 2017 pick

Colorado: MacKinnon, Rantanen, Greer, Bigras, Beaudin...+ top 2017 pick + haul for Duchesne/Landeskog

 

And that is just Western teams. So even if all our guys pan out (very unlikely), having a Stanley Cup contending team is far from a certainty.

Yup. This is what people who say things like "Benning has done such a good job of rebuilding the team and making it younger!" don't understand.

 

Pretty much every team has good prospects, our pool isn't much better than average. To be an elite team, you need a surplus of these kinds of assets, more than the teams you're competing with to win the arms race.

 

When Benning took over almost 3 years ago, he had a chance to sell off a bunch of older but still valuable assets to kick-start a fantastic rebuild. Instead he wasted assets on magic beans and now we're stuck in no man's land: not bad enough to win the lottery, not good enough to be a playoff threat.

 

If we bottomed-out when we should have, we'd probably already be on the upswing by now, looking like a promising young team like Toronto.

[Matt_T83]

Honestly, I have to admit I'm starting to agree with you OP.  I've been pretty negative about this team. I'm not a huge fan of Gudbranson, and I've been pretty vocal about that. However, Tryamkin has absolutely blown me away this season... Benning is looking like a genius drafting him :S 

 

I'm not so optimistic about Jake Virtanen. I still think we should have drafted Ehlers, Nylander, or Ritchie instead. I also think that the twins will retire at the end of their current contracts. They don't need more money and they'll probably want to spend time with their families and retire in Sweden. 

 

We will need to add another 1st line winger to complete the line with Horvat/Boeser, and we will need better 3rd line players when the Sedins retire. But, as you said, our defense really does look set. The current defense group is young and will only be better in 2-3 years. We might have to replace Edler, but that's okay. Tanev, Gudbranson, Tryamkin, Hutton, and Stetcher will round out a very nice top 5D. 

[appleboy]

10 hours ago, D-Money said:

Sure, Horvat, Boeser, Juolevi, and Demko are promising young players/prospects. But guess what? Other teams have those too, and often more of them and/or with even higher ceilings.

 

Winnipeg: Laine, Scheifele, Trouba, Ehlers, Connor, Hellebuyck, Morrissey, Dano, Lemieux, Armia...

Edmonton: McDavid, Draisatl, Poolparty, Nurse, Caggiula, Ellis...

Arizona: Domi, Strome, Chychrun, Dvorak, Merkley, Wood, Dauphin, Hill, Fischer...+ top 2017 pick

Colorado: MacKinnon, Rantanen, Greer, Bigras, Beaudin...+ top 2017 pick + haul for Duchesne/Landeskog

 

And that is just Western teams. So even if all our guys pan out (very unlikely), having a Stanley Cup contending team is far from a certainty.

 

 

I think that too much focus is put on the forwards. The Canucks strength right now is on D and in goal. All they need to do is add another 30 to 40 goals and we will be back in the hunt. Defense wins you games and Benning has scored big at finding a few gems on the back end.

Tryamkin could become a top pairing D man and those are not easy to find.

[appleboy]

Another D man that we may well be finding a place for is Evan McEneny. He is beginning to find his way in Utica. Green is beginning to use him a lot. (6'3" 215 lb)

Or they might lose him in expansion.

[Johnny Shotgun]

" I know you believe me but here's a surprise."

"I can see for miles and miles"

"I can see for miles and miles"

"I can see, for miles and miles and miles"

 

 

No you can't Canucks drafting scouts.

 

Apologies to the Who.

[Salacious Crumb]

11 hours ago, kanucks25 said:

Yup. This is what people who say things like "Benning has done such a good job of rebuilding the team and making it younger!" don't understand.

 

Pretty much every team has good prospects, our pool isn't much better than average. To be an elite team, you need a surplus of these kinds of assets, more than the teams you're competing with to win the arms race.

 

When Benning took over almost 3 years ago, he had a chance to sell off a bunch of older but still valuable assets to kick-start a fantastic rebuild. Instead he wasted assets on magic beans and now we're stuck in no man's land: not bad enough to win the lottery, not good enough to be a playoff threat.

 

If we bottomed-out when we should have, we'd probably already be on the upswing by now, looking like a promising young team like Toronto.

Hindsight is neat.

 

considering what he inherited he has done a pretty good job of restocking. Yes there have been some poor decisions but look at our roster 3 years ago vs now

[DSVII]

50 minutes ago, Salacious Crumb said:

Hindsight is neat.

 

considering what he inherited he has done a pretty good job of restocking. Yes there have been some poor decisions but look at our roster 3 years ago vs now

GMs are paid millions to have foresight and make moves ahead of the curve. There have been several draft picks/signings that so far hockey forums have made a better call on than the gm. 

 

He also inherited a great situation. He had an all star 2nd line centre to trade as well as valuable veteran pieces that he could have moved but neglected to. 

 

The restock isn't happening at the same rate as our western rivals. At least so far. We need to draft more than 5 times each year going forward instead of trading for middling players. 

 

I'd much rather have McCann and three more prospects right now than guds and larsen

 

[Baggins]

12 hours ago, kanucks25 said:

If we bottomed-out when we should have, we'd probably already be on the upswing by now, looking like a promising young team like Toronto.

If we cleared out the vets and bottomed out as you suggest, we'd have a team of career AHL'ers with a couple of top picks. Which would be like Edmonton's lengthy run at the bottom of the league. Stars but nothing to go with them.

 

Toronto had years of drafting and developing before bottoming out. Meaning their quick turnaround wasn't actually that quick. They already had a good prospect pool. Our prospect pool on the other hand couldn't fill a water glass.

[DSVII]

3 minutes ago, Baggins said:

If we cleared out the vets and bottomed out as you suggest, we'd have a team of career AHL'ers with a couple of top picks. Which would be like Edmonton's lengthy run at the bottom of the league. Stars but nothing to go with them.

 

Toronto had years of drafting and developing before bottoming out. Meaning their quick turnaround wasn't actually that quick. They already had a good prospect pool. Our prospect pool on the other hand couldn't fill a water glass.

Bottoming out probably isn't as dramatic as that. Keep the sedins but either trade expiring UFAs, resign them if you want their presence, and accumulate picks. We did worse, we let them walk for nothing. That's value out of our organization for nothing.

 

Last year also showed you can still bottom out the Sedins and vets on the roster to show the prospects the way. 

[Baggins]

7 minutes ago, DSVII said:

Bottoming out probably isn't as dramatic as that. Keep the sedins but either trade expiring UFAs, resign them if you want their presence, and accumulate picks. We did worse, we let them walk for nothing. That's value out of our organization for nothing.

 

Last year also showed you can still bottom out the Sedins and vets on the roster to show the prospects the way. 

 

Good god. Why are people still going on about Hamhuis and Vrbata. Both tied Bennings hands with their ntc's.

 

Btw, Kanucks25 did say "clear out aging vets". He, like many others, wanted a house cleaning for draft picks from the start. Gutting the team to intentionally hit bottom. The problem with doing that is exactly what I said. A few young stars with nothing to go with them.

[DSVII]

33 minutes ago, Baggins said:

 

Good god. Why are people still going on about Hamhuis and Vrbata. Both tied Bennings hands with their ntc's.

 

Btw, Kanucks25 did say "clear out aging vets". He, like many others, wanted a house cleaning for draft picks from the start. Gutting the team to intentionally hit bottom. The problem with doing that is exactly what I said. A few young stars with nothing to go with them.

We harp on Hammer and Vrbata because it was part of Benning's job to get something out of that situation for the team. He also signed Vrbata to the NTC so it's not like it was a blindside to him either. Garrison had an NTC too so that's no insurmountable obstacle.

 

Hammer and Vrbata understandably did not want to uproot their families with such short notice, and Vrbata intentionally gave Benning a list of teams he knew wouldn't want him. But that's what happens when it is done last minute, rather than setting the expectation months beforehand when it was obvious the 2016 nucks weren't a playoff team. Hammer too, was willing to waive to a contender but by the time they got that settled at the eleventh hour the market had already moved on. It was a failure of timing and preparation. Benning navigated himself into that deadlock and there's no excuse for it.

 

I'll also disagree with Kanucks25 on a full strip down then, we need to keep the Sedins/Burrows/Edler, but there were moveable veterans we needed to capitalize on. I was willing to forgive the inaction on Hamhuis had we resigned him for cheaper, but that wasn't the case.

 

[Baggins]

Just now, DSVII said:

We harp on Hammer and Vrbata because it was part of Benning's job to get something out of that situation for the team. He also signed Vrbata to the NTC so it's not like it was a blindside to him either. Garrison had an NTC too so that's no insurmountable obstacle.

 

Hammer and Vrbata understandably did not want to uproot their families with such short notice, and Vrbata intentionally gave Benning a list of teams he knew wouldn't want him. But that's what happens when it is done last minute, rather than setting the expectation months beforehand when it was obvious the 2016 nucks weren't a playoff team. Hammer too, was willing to waive to a contender but by the time they got that settled at the eleventh hour the market had already moved on. It was a failure of timing and preparation. Benning navigated himself into that deadlock and there's no excuse for it.

 

I'll also disagree with Kanucks25 on a full strip down then, we need to keep the Sedins/Burrows/Edler, but there were moveable veterans we needed to capitalize on. I was willing to forgive the inaction on Hamhuis had we resigned him for cheaper, but that wasn't the case.

 

I call garbage on that one. Both knew exactly where they stood. Over 30 pending ufa's on a non-playoff rebuilding team. Not exactly out of the blue that they'd be trade bait. It's what happens to players in that situation every year. Both tied Bennings hands. Period. There's nothing a GM can do about that. NTC's are given for a better monetary deal. Some players are reasonable at the end of that deal about being moved, others aren't. That's just the way it goes. Teams lose players to free agency every year. Get over it. And if you think Benning waited till the last day to even start looking for deals you're completely out to lunch.

 

I wonder if Leafs fans cry as much about losing Sundin for nothing after he had 78 points in 74 games. Now that's a lost opportunity. But he used his ntc to block a move. Shouldn't their GM have waived his magic wand? Seriously, get over it. It's the penalty you can pay for the financial benifit you got.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

Vrbata pouting & not acting like a professional when taken off the Sedin line did more to hamstring Benning than the NTC.

 

I doubt he had any value at the trade deadline because of this.

 

[Baggins]

1 minute ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Vrbata pouting & not acting like a professional when taken of the Sedin line did more the hamstring Benning than the NTC.

 

 

People seem to forget he was taken off the Sedin line his first season here and played most of that year with Bonino. Where was his "pouting" then?

[NewbieCanuckFan]

Just now, Baggins said:

People seem to forget he was taken off the Sedin line his first season here and played most of that year with Bonino. Where was his "pouting" then?

True he did seem to have chemistry with Bonino - but that guy was dealt (oddly enough for a guy that temporarily replaced him on the Sedin line).

 

 

[ReggieBush]

53 minutes ago, DSVII said:

We harp on Hammer and Vrbata because it was part of Benning's job to get something out of that situation for the team. He also signed Vrbata to the NTC so it's not like it was a blindside to him either. Garrison had an NTC too so that's no insurmountable obstacle.

 

Hammer and Vrbata understandably did not want to uproot their families with such short notice, and Vrbata intentionally gave Benning a list of teams he knew wouldn't want him. But that's what happens when it is done last minute, rather than setting the expectation months beforehand when it was obvious the 2016 nucks weren't a playoff team. Hammer too, was willing to waive to a contender but by the time they got that settled at the eleventh hour the market had already moved on. It was a failure of timing and preparation. Benning navigated himself into that deadlock and there's no excuse for it.

 

I'll also disagree with Kanucks25 on a full strip down then, we need to keep the Sedins/Burrows/Edler, but there were moveable veterans we needed to capitalize on. I was willing to forgive the inaction on Hamhuis had we resigned him for cheaper, but that wasn't the case.

 

 

A trade requires two willing partners.

[DSVII]

1 hour ago, Baggins said:

I call garbage on that one. Both knew exactly where they stood. Over 30 pending ufa's on a non-playoff rebuilding team. Not exactly out of the blue that they'd be trade bait. It's what happens to players in that situation every year. Both tied Bennings hands. Period. There's nothing a GM can do about that. NTC's are given for a better monetary deal. Some players are reasonable at the end of that deal about being moved, others aren't. That's just the way it goes. Teams lose players to free agency every year. Get over it. And if you think Benning waited till the last day to even start looking for deals you're completely out to lunch.

 

I wonder if Leafs fans cry as much about losing Sundin for nothing after he had 78 points in 74 games. Now that's a lost opportunity. But he used his ntc to block a move. Shouldn't their GM have waived his magic wand? Seriously, get over it. It's the penalty you can pay for the financial benifit you got.

The groundwork for Vrbata i agree would have been much tougher, and would have needed to be done while his value was high the season prior. Hammer was the most sought after defensemen on the market at a time when the market was high on defense, Hammer indicated he would have been interested in pulling an Antoine Vermette style move if management was willing to facilitate and re-sign him in the offseason, they would not. There is a scenario here where it isn't too hard to imagine Hamhuis being moved and re-signing with us ( I would take Hammer and keeping our 5th over Philip Larsen), but the fact remains we didn't and Benning didn't even approach him for an extension in the off season. Also, Hammer wasn't presented with a deal that would send him to Chicago until less than a week prior to trade deadline.

 

Point is, there is plenty a GM can do in that situation to facilitate a deal, and to pro-actively seek a trade partner earlier than just a week prior to trade deadline. We just didn't do it. And if you can't see that as a huge lost opportunity or at least as a series of missteps last year, then I'll agree to disagree with you here Baggins.

 

For the record, i am over it, but until management shows they've learned from this experience, this needs to be brought up as an area of concern and they need to be held accountable. Bleeding value and picks has been our theme in the last two years, we need to stop that and end up with more picks for our drafting guru GM to work with.