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[Discussion] Blow It Up.


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The alternative is a death by a thousand cuts.

 

The return to respectability will still take until 2020 IF management does it now and 2023 for a possible cup run. At that, there is a good chance that the team will not have the same high skill leveled individual players as Calgary, Winnipeg, Edmonton or Chicago, they will be unlikely to have that point per game player(s). That means the team should plan to make itself a 4 line scoring team, that requires an adjustment to conventional coaching, drafting and smart cap management.

 

While Colorado SHOULD be a good example of this concept, they still have a major problem, it could be with melding ego's, erratic changes in coaching styles, poor goaltending, to leadership, either not enough or too much. That's right, it is possible to have too much leadership, too many "cliques" in the room, too much pointing of the fingers.

 

One of the reason's for this plan is that there are no players coming up through the next couple drafts that are considered "franchise" players at this time, so there will be no quick, one draft and boom, winning.

 

Two things can't really be taught, god gifted speed and size,. Coaching styles can make "teams", help players nullify weaknesses, create "hockey sense". Worst case here would be to become the NJD of old or Canucks under AV's first 3 years, so dull that the joke was the Canucks should have to give up a 1rst round draft pick as compensation for being so defensive minded, dull and boring.

 

The team could opt for trying to rebuild by using the expansion draft to grab players like Silverberg, sign FA's like Taveras, trade for players like Hanzal and Boyle, stock pile picks hoping to get another Hansen or dig up a Tanev, Burrows or other late blooming college kid(s). While this might work to re-establish a possible playoff spot quicker, it is still delaying the inevitable need for a over haul in a couple of years and lowering expectations to merely making the playoffs as the ultimate management goal.

 

Another option can be to over pay for 22 to 25 year old 1rst and 2nd line NHL players that have proven NHL production over 3 or 4 years. Not one hit wonders like Vey was where points were gifted via PP time or "star" AHLer's who usually make pretty good 4th liners and so so 3rd liners.

 

Management's feet are being held to the fire now, they shouldn't just dip a toe in the water, they should jump in, do the dirty work all at once, if done properly the fans will understand, if done piecemeal then they chance alienating the fans slowly but with more finality, right now it won't be too hard to change hearts and minds but keep offering up the disrespect currently being shown and it may take another "for a quarter" type speech again.

 

All players over 29 should be given the opportunity for a cup with other teams.

 

 

  

 

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Blow it up?

Forward depth is nice.  Trade too many away and every game will be like the recent Pittsburgh game.  Have fun watching 4 seasons of that.  Canucks don't have the depth at centre to trade away Henrik or Sutter.  There definitely is depth to trade Burrows, a veteran defenceman, and perhaps Hansen.

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Is it like pulling a Bandaid off slowly, instead of ripping it off fast?  It's either little short bursts of pain over a long time, or one fast intense pain.  I really don't care how we get back to a Cup level team.  I just want us to get there, and sooner rather than later.  If that means intense pain, then let's get it over with.

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17 hours ago, Wilbur said:

Blow it up?

Forward depth is nice.  Trade too many away and every game will be like the recent Pittsburgh game.  Have fun watching 4 seasons of that.  Canucks don't have the depth at centre to trade away Henrik or Sutter.  There definitely is depth to trade Burrows, a veteran defenceman, and perhaps Hansen.

Already 2 seasons in the bank and not getting better with the outlook of still not having the depth at centre. At some time there will have to be a change, if done one spot at a time it will take a lot more than 4 years.

 

Look at it this way, over the last three years how many forward positions have been improved upon? How many true prospects have excelled on the team and vs opposition. One, Horvat. Grandlund and Baertschi are okay players but not so much top six guys, sure on THIS team maybe but this is a bottom feeder now. It took almost 3 years before Horvat established himself as being above average, that's one position and one player, the team needs 5 more. Even IF Boeser works out, that leaves 4, or another 6 years to find NHL top 6 players, not Canuck top 6. By that time Horvat has been in the league maybe close to 8 to 10 years and there is that age gap problem again. Sutter will be gone by then leaving who?

 

Sutter will be 29 this year, not old but add 4 years to that and does he project to be as good productive as Burrows, Hansen, Vrbata, Sedins were at that age?

If the Sedins want to re-sign there they will be close to their 40th birthday and you that they will still probably be effective because they play together so well, maybe they will be 3rd liners and PP players by then but the sad commentary here is there is no one good enough to displace them. But then they would still be effective whichever team play on. Other teams could use them a depth or supplementary players, the Nucks would still be leaning on them for primary production.

 

Eriksson will be 32 this year, add a few more, even if his production doubles is it enough to replace what is being lost?

 

Sven is 25, and playing with the best player on the team and getting primary PP time, can he produce with anybody else?

Grandlund's birthday is in a couple of weeks, he looks like he has figured it out, he plays with all kinds of different players, in various positions and can be effective without the need to play with the best players on the team, I see him as a "Hansen" type player without the "edge"

 

What I am trying to point out is that in 3 or 4 years this team is not young any longer and will still need to find 3 or 4  NHL level top six players. Doing it the way they are now is just like what TO did for decades to insure mediocrity. Calgary hung on too long before finally moving the cherished assets and it took them over 4 years so far to recover that guffaw.

 

Stating the obvious, if it was obvious why don't those ridiculing the idea post an original thought of their own? A "hope" that the team improves quicker? So far their message seems to be, "trust the saleman to tell you want for the biggest buck".

 

Load up the negative votes, it helps me show that I know how to get attention and they have value, any idiot can garner "nice guy" or "herd" points but only I am standing on the pedestal saying "look out for the iceberg" while those who give the most negative votes are partying and "drinking the kool aid".  

 

16 hours ago, elvis15 said:

What a novel idea, original too. /sarcasm

 

Basically a long-winded post saying nothing that wasn't already discernible from the title.

The focus of the post is the "reasoning" for a blow up, not what a blow up would encompass by the way of trades and such, more the reasons why a blow up vs the continues attempt to slowly rebuild the team.

I haven't tried to make it easy by thinking for other posters, the thread is supposed to be vague, I am not doing your thinking for you, it is not a simply yes or no idea. There has to be forward thinking, not just the next game or next season but further than that. It is a management plan type thread.

I accept that I get negative votes for "stating the obvious" but no else seems to start a conversation about the "obvious". I start a conversation about the need to trade the Sedins before most others and get dozens and dozens of negative votes, now the idea is everywhere. I post what I think will happen during the season before the season even starts and get dozens and dozens of negative votes and yet the team is almost exactly where I guessed it would be and now it is a common thought. There is a pattern here, I am no oracle, but if  lowly dumb guy like me can get an idea of where the team is going to be, then maybe, IMO, all these negatives are really just posters upset that they missed the bus and don't like being made to look like lemmings. It is mostly the same group that are hitting the unhappy button.

 

If you don't think the team should be "blown up" state why you think it shouldn't and expand on the idea as to why it shouldn't, if not, they how many years should be offered up to see if it works or not, why you would buy tickets to watch a bottom feeder.

 

I am a fan of this team and of hockey, I have watched this team flounder for more years than they have excelled, I don't ever want to hear another "for a quarter" speech again, I don't want to listen to another "the absentee owner hires an accountant to run the team" again. What I do want to hear is "and the Vancouver Canucks are going to the Stanley cup Finals". There is no need to repeat the mistakes of the past. Again, obvious mistakes.

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@TheGuardian_

There are other ways to add top six players than through the draft.  Look at the Canucks 2011 team:

Sedin/Sedin/Burrows = early first x 2/undrafted FA

Samuelsson/Kesler/Raymond  = UFA/later first/2nd rounder.  

Also, if Connor Sheary is a top six player, Sven Baertschi can be a top six player.

 

If you are seriously saying Bo Horvat is going to be too old then this is all for naught.  You're not just suggesting trade anyone over 26, you seem to be suggesting trading everyone over 20.

 

If the Canucks continue to make the right decision through the draft, the right decisions through trade, and fill the odd hole through free agency they will continually make a better team.  Yeah, there will be bumps in the road when injuries hit or the Sedin's retire.  

 

Moving forward, I'd say Bo Horvat and Sven Baertschi are top six forwards.  They are right now, so I see them there in the future too.  The Sedin's, Eriksson, and Sutter are top six place holders.  They can play top six right now but as the years go by their roles will diminish before they move on (or get moved).  In the system or on the team I see Boeser, Virtanen, Granlund, and Gaudette all having top six potential (at this point in time).  Is it a short list?  Yeah, but it's growing.  Will they all pan out to be top six?  Probably not, but this years draft should add more names to that list.  Trading all the "placeholders" will only add a couple more names "top six potential" list (and not necessarily better names).  There are other places to add to the top six too.  With the emergence of Tryamkin and Stecher, the Canucks can afford to trade some depth there to add a very solid player to the  "top six potential" list.  Or, as Benning and co. continue to add to the depth list, a cap crunched team may come calling.

 

It's not my intention to give the future a rose-coloured tint.  The Canucks are still going to have to find some key pieces, they are not by any means done and some of those pieces may come through the trading of some older players.  But I see blowing it up just adding unnecessary pain with no guarantees either.

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20 hours ago, Wilbur said:

There are other ways to add top six players than through the draft.  Look at the Canucks 2011 team:

Sedin/Sedin/Burrows = early first x 2/undrafted FA

Samuelsson/Kesler/Raymond  = UFA/later first/2nd rounder.  

Also, if Connor Sheary is a top six player, Sven Baertschi can be a top six player.

I don't disagree, but that team was built with three different GM's for one thing. Trading of aging assets and picks for young established NHL players/prospects, which this management group has stated they will not trade older players do because it would not be fair to some players or they just didn't think of/work on it early enough. 

Just in first rounders' there you have a 2nd and 3rd overall in 1999, and are still the team's franchise players some 18 years later. Good players, bad planning.

Connor Sheary? He plays ahead of Hagelin and Kunitz? His icetime seems to be in the 3rd line area.

 

21 hours ago, Wilbur said:

If you are seriously saying Bo Horvat is going to be too old then this is all for naught.  You're not just suggesting trade anyone over 26, you seem to be suggesting trading everyone over 20.

What I was saying is the team can't keep being run the way they are now, that ideas like yours have to be implemented and not for career AHLer's, if they keep doing it the way they are now it could take 10 years from the start of the rebuild, which Linden has stated won't start until the 2019 season when the Sedins contracts are up.

21 hours ago, Wilbur said:

It's not my intention to give the future a rose-coloured tint.  The Canucks are still going to have to find some key pieces, they are not by any means done and some of those pieces may come through the trading of some older players.  But I see blowing it up just adding unnecessary pain with no guarantees either

Unnecessary pain? The team is struggling to be the 3rd or 4th worst in the league with ticket prices that are 3rd or 4th highest in the league.

At least in blowing it up the fans can be saved the "we are a winning environment" crap and get behind the losing for a cause or future.

It puts the team on a path of improvement in a larger area, not just "one spot at a time" per year and out of that mid range mediocrity of not being quite good enough to be a SC contender and too good to get that next super, superstar player that would make a huge difference. 

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24 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

I don't disagree, but that team was built with three different GM's for one thing. Trading of aging assets and picks for young established NHL players/prospects, which this management group has stated they will not trade older players do because it would not be fair to some players or they just didn't think of/work on it early enough. 

Just in first rounders' there you have a 2nd and 3rd overall in 1999, and are still the team's franchise players some 18 years later. Good players, bad planning.

Connor Sheary? He plays ahead of Hagelin and Kunitz? His icetime seems to be in the 3rd line area.

 

What I was saying is the team can't keep being run the way they are now, that ideas like yours have to be implemented and not for career AHLer's, if they keep doing it the way they are now it could take 10 years from the start of the rebuild, which Linden has stated won't start until the 2019 season when the Sedins contracts are up.

Unnecessary pain? The team is struggling to be the 3rd or 4th worst in the league with ticket prices that are 3rd or 4th highest in the league.

At least in blowing it up the fans can be saved the "we are a winning environment" crap and get behind the losing for a cause or future.

It puts the team on a path of improvement in a larger area, not just "one spot at a time" per year and out of that mid range mediocrity of not being quite good enough to be a SC contender and too good to get that next super, superstar player that would make a huge difference. 

I keep seeing comments like this "the rebuild can't start until the Sedin's retire"  Hogwash!  

 

The team is being turned over and they're keeping some vets to show the young guys what it takes to be a pro, to carry the culture forward by showing the kids, and to shelter them from the hard match ups while they develop.  The Sedins will retire soon and Sutter (28) will take their place for this purpose.  Is that such a bad plan?

 

It is a good plan.  In fact, if you look at the teams who have blown it up.  Toronto, Buffalo, they have added veterans back for this purpose.  To replace the veterans that they jettisoned.  

 

Fact is, Gillis started rebuilding when he drafted Horvat.  He is the leading edge of the new core or the oldest player in the new core.

 

Benning has been able to add some nice pieces who are older than Horvat:  Baertschi, Granlund, Gudbranson, Tryamkin, Stecher.  But most of the growth is going to be younger.  Benning has had 3 drafts and is getting good players every year:

 

2014:  Virtanen, Demko, Tryamkin

2015:  Boeser, Briesbois, Neill, Gaudette

2016:  Juolevi, Lockwood

 

But like Wilbur says, there are other ways to get good players.  When the Sedin's retire, as I said, Sutter can play 2C and they'll have the cap space to go after a free agent winger to replace Daniel if they don't already have a replacement.

 

They have a good goalie coming up:  Demko

Good young pieces on defense:  Hutton, Tryamkin, Juolevi, Stecher, Briesbois, Subban, Gudbranson is only 24

And forwards:  Horvat, Virtanen, Boeser, Gaudette and some of the older ones Baertschi 24, Granlund 23

 

And what you point out about taking too long with the rebuild is true.  They can't let Horvat get too old before we start to see a core coming together.  There are missing pieces but it's a work in progress.  The missing pieces are forwards and we all know, the development curve for forwards is shorter than goal and defense.

 

The competitive environment that Benning covets is all about developing players.  It has nothing to do with selling tickets.

 

I am so not worried about the future of the team

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4 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

I keep seeing comments like this "the rebuild can't start until the Sedin's retire"  Hogwash!  

 

The team is being turned over and they're keeping some vets to show the young guys what it takes to be a pro, to carry the culture forward by showing the kids, and to shelter them from the hard match ups while they develop.  The Sedins will retire soon and Sutter (28) will take their place for this purpose.  Is that such a bad plan?

 

Did you miss all threads and media about this interview? How Linden acknowledged when he was hired that this team needed to do a total rebuild but it wouldn't be fair to the Sedins. The Sedins have another year on their contract ending in the 2017/2018 season that means it will be the 2018/2019 season before the total rebuild starts, that's if the Sedins decide to retire, if not then how much longer?

 

Players being turned over is NOT rebuilding a team, it is just giving a whole bunch of AHL players a turn in the NHL, those players will play their hearts out for a chance that they might be able to stick or find another team to play on. It does give the team lots of energy so they look good losing. But if you think it is rebuilding, look at the standings, there are lies there, each year, even with a healthy club, the point totals go down.

 

Culture? The culture of learning that you get paid regardless of the standings? Of losing with "grace"? This is not a playoff contender only the screwy points system keeps them close, how many teams are over .500 in points percentage? 25 out of 30 or more?

 

The Sedins retire and over a hundred points per season disappear overnight, who takes up the load? Baertschi? Grandlund? Eriksson? Sutter? Who? Not only the points but 36 to 40 minutes of icetime per game has to be redistributed. First line minutes, what, just add 10 min per game to the above mentioned?

 

A blow up isn't going to make it better but understanding what is happening from the fans, all of them, not just posters, will certainly ease a transition period as long as it doesn't take another 7 years on top of the 3 or 4 wasted because someone didn't want to hurt a millionaire hockey players feelings.

21 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

Fact is, Gillis started rebuilding when he drafted Horvat.  He is the leading edge of the new core or the oldest player in the new core.

Yes he did, but this group halted that and Horvat is the ONLY young player that could be considered a "core" player going forward, Benning etal have not added ONE other, well maybe Tryamkin when he gets the language down better.

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