[Discussion] Loaning Virtanen (2018)

[Mathew Barzal]

For reference: http://www.hockeyfeed.com/nhl-news/leafs-acquire-defenseman-in-bizarre-transaction-on-tuesday

 

Last week the Marlies acquired Alex Gudbranson via loan from the Iowa Wild.

 

While to a certain extent I can understand the sentiment behind having Virtanen develop the work ethic and understanding of our system under Green's supervision should the end goal not be to have Virtanen have a shot at becoming a top six player? We've all heard and read the good things regarding Virtanen's game thus far from Green but clearly the results aren't there.

 

If Virtanen expectedly starts the next season with the Comet's and continues to stagnate offensively while the team continues to dwell at the bottom would it not be in his best interest to get him somewhere where he can hone his skills alongside other players of his caliber and pedigree?

 

Also, something something winning environment...

[orcasgonewild]

Virtanen plays with cassels and kunyk...

 

 

 

Only Mcjesus could produce with those plugs

 

 

 

Virtanen will be fine just stunted development. Power forwards take awhile to mature anyways usually around 22-24 range. 

 

 

Keep him in the AHL primarily focussing on offence. Putting him on the top line with valk and grenier would help too.

 

 

 

He'll be fine trust me 

[-AJ-]

Oh, I thought this was some sort of World Juniors thing, but he's too old for that as of next year. It's an interesting idea that I'm not totally closed to. Hopefully next year, assuming Demko is still in Utica, Demko can carry the team to the playoffs and further success.

[Quantum]

Virtanen is a top prospect in this organization. No way in hell he's "loaned" out to another AHL team. Only way he gets loaned out is if he's still under contract, in his late 20's, and still playing in the AHL. Thing is, and it's said before, power forward's usually take time to produce. Virtanen's the type of player who has never had to struggle before. He coasted in Junior due to size and skill. That size and skill is matched at the NHL and AHL levels. He's got to learn to do the little things better. He may not be scoring a sh!t-tonne of goals in the AHL right now but that's okay. He's learning to do the other things better. And again, he's only 20. Give him some time. Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither is Virtanen's development as an NHLer. I fully expect that by 2018 that Virtanen will well be on his way to being a solid NHLer. If not a regular in the lineup -- he'll, at least, be a call up option as he still rounds out his game. He may not be a bonafide #1 RWer but I still fully expect Virtanen to be a solid prescence on this team. I think we'll just have to leave the scoring to guys like Boeser, Horvat, and Gaudette when they show in Van City.

 

And for those who complain about having Virtanen over Nylanders or Ehlers... Virtanen is still better than Michael Dal Colle -- the player picked one slot before Virtanen in that year's draft (by the Islanders)-- and who had a dramatic Draft + 1 drop off in production. He's doing okay in the AHL but is a little below Virtanen in terms of development curve.

[Canuck Surfer]

3 hours ago, orcasgonewild said:

Putting him on the top line with valk and grenier would help too.

 

[ice orca]

6 hours ago, orcasgonewild said:

Virtanen plays with cassels and kunyk...

 

 

 

Only Mcjesus could produce with those plugs

 

 

 

Virtanen will be fine just stunted development. Power forwards take awhile to mature anyways usually around 22-24 range. 

 

 

Keep him in the AHL primarily focussing on offence. Putting him on the top line with valk and grenier would help too.

 

 

 

He'll be fine trust me 

There is a reason he is playing with those guys..he's not good enough or not doing enough to play on the top line. Same thing happened in Vancouver and Willie was drawn and quartered by Virtanen homers about it, looks like Green is starting to get the same treatment. It's always about the other guys being plugs on his line when it come to Jake, if he was that good he wouldn't playing with plugs.

[73 Percent]

8 minutes ago, ice orca said:

There is a reason he is playing with those guys..he's not good enough or not doing enough to play on the top line. Same thing happened in Vancouver and Willie was drawn and quartered by Virtanen homers about it, looks like Green is starting to get the same treatment. It's always about the other guys being plugs on his line when it come to Jake, if he was that good he wouldn't playing with plugs.

I agree linemates has always been a sad ass excuse for virt. But you really can't be expecting him to produce playing with cassels. 

 

14 pts

 

109 ahl games.

[ice orca]

2 minutes ago, Gooseberries said:

I agree linemates has always been a sad ass excuse for virt. But you really can't be expecting him to produce playing with cassels. 

 

14 pts

 

109 ahl games.

Well if you are supposed to be a high end player you should be able to elevate the guys on your line.

[orcasgonewild]

19 minutes ago, ice orca said:

There is a reason he is playing with those guys..he's not good enough or not doing enough to play on the top line. Same thing happened in Vancouver and Willie was drawn and quartered by Virtanen homers about it, looks like Green is starting to get the same treatment. It's always about the other guys being plugs on his line when it come to Jake, if he was that good he wouldn't playing with plugs.

He plays with them so he can round out his defensive game 

 

2 minutes ago, ice orca said:

Well if you are supposed to be a high end player you should be able to elevate the guys on your line.

Its easier to elevate the players around u if u are a centre. He's a power forward, they generally need a decent centre.

 

Plus come on, u guys are actually defending the fact he plays with cassels and kunyk. They aren't relied on for offense only defence.

 

Jb has said himself that utica sucks offensively so he doesn't blame his stats. He is looking at his overall game and apparently it's improving 

[73 Percent]

6 minutes ago, ice orca said:

Well if you are supposed to be a high end player you should be able to elevate the guys on your line.

He is. He got an assist last game. When's the last time cassels had a point. That's how sad it is in Uticas bottom 6.

[Where's Wellwood]

5 hours ago, Quantum said:

 He's learning to do the other things better. And again, he's only 20. Give him some time. Rome wasn't built in a day, 

Yeah. Aaron Rome took time to become the player he was. 

[Mr.53]

A lot of people just don't seem to see what the coaching staff is doing with Virtanen. To be fair, none of us exactly live in Utica and get to see his step by step progression, and therefore rely on numbers, and news sources.

 

Virtanen is a good player. He had 13 points in 55 games as a 19 year old powerforward in the NHL. That's not bad at all, by any means of the word. The problem happened next season, when Virtanen screwed up his development. He came into camp way too heavy and in bad shape. In the NHL, especially when you're a forechecking, backchecking, pace pushing, powerforward, good shape doesn't cut it. You need to be in excellent shape among other things to handle that workload night in night out for 82 games. You have to eat right, sleep right, work out right, etc.

 

Virtanen has NHL calibre skillset where he can be a legitimate middle 6 player and on his way up. He has the skating, the strength, the size, the power, the shot, the hands, etc to be an effective player. He mainly lacks 2 things that are holding him back.

 

1. Pro athlete skills: He needs to learn how to be a professional athlete day in and day out. He's used to using his incredible athletisicm to get him by where he can perform well and do whatever he wants. Now on the NHL level you have to mature mentally and do all those things off the ice, that allow you to play on the ice. The main thing, as we all know, is his conditioning. But it sounds like being in Utica has been a wake up call for him where he is starting to take it more seriously. Green and Benning said he's done great work, shedding 10-15 pounds this season and now can play a 50-60 second shift hard, rather than the 30-40 he could do before. That is huge because it will allow him to actually use his skills on an NHL roster.
2. His defensive game: In the NHL, offensive skills are great, but that's not usually what get's you on the roster. Look at Horvat, or I would even say Stecher over Subban. Stecher proved that he could defend good enough to be on the roster, as did Horvat. That's what gave Stecher the job over Subban, and Horvat the  job over McCann. Defensive skills get you on the roster, offensive skills move you up the lineup. But if you don't have the defensive skills, you can't even get on the team. Green has Virtanen working on that part of his game more than anything else (except conditioning.) He, and Benning know Utica just won't and isn't a high scoring team this year. Virtanen is not some high profile playmaker. He's a guy a playmaker hands the puck to, and he finishes the play, as well as being an impactful pace pushing, wrecking ball on the wing. If Virtanen can get his defensive skills up, as well as his conditioning, he could and would be a menace to play against and a matchup nightmare for smaller forwards. I would love to see a Baertschi - Horvat - Virtanen shutdown middle 6 line. Virtanen will be back in the NHL, and when he is, the offense will start to come.

Virtanen may not be impressing now, but he is not showing signs of being a bust. Just major signs of a guy that will take a little longer than expected, (due to nobodie's fault but his own) but don't misunderstand that to mean he all of a sudden lost all of his talent and all of his potential. The coaches know this, and I trust them. Green will get Virtanen right for next season, whether in Vancouver or Utica. 

[Nucks89]

10 hours ago, orcasgonewild said:

Virtanen plays with cassels and kunyk...

 

 

 

Only Mcjesus could produce with those plugs

 

 

 

Virtanen will be fine just stunted development. Power forwards take awhile to mature anyways usually around 22-24 range. 

 

 

Keep him in the AHL primarily focussing on offence. Putting him on the top line with valk and grenier would help too.

 

 

 

He'll be fine trust me 

Jake is that you?

[oldnews]

I think the OP has missed the entire point of having Virtanen precisely where he is.

He doesn't need to learn how to score.

 

What he needs are all the other aspects that make Green precisely the right coach and Utica precisely the right situation for him.

 

The franchise already had to deal with having him in a foreign system in Calgary.

 

Horrible idea imo.   Keep him where he is.

[oldnews]

Btw Alex Gudbranson is the type of player that gets loaned in these kinds of deals - he's an ECHL/AHL tweener - on a franchise in Minnesota that is very deep in blueliners.

In other words -he was unlikely to get many AHL minutes playing in Iowa.

 

There really is no comparable in these situations.

 

 

 

Like I said elsewhere - don't get hung up on Virtanen's short term production  - look at players like Neiderreiter or Faksa - and don't make the mistake the Islanders did.

[orcasgonewild]

2 hours ago, Nucks89 said:

Jake is that you?

Yea LOL that's why my Hutton story is so good 

[73 Percent]

3 hours ago, Mr.53 said:

A lot of people just don't seem to see what the coaching staff is doing with Virtanen. To be fair, none of us exactly live in Utica and get to see his step by step progression, and therefore rely on numbers, and news sources.

 

Virtanen is a good player. He had 13 points in 55 games as a 19 year old powerforward in the NHL. That's not bad at all, by any means of the word. The problem happened next season, when Virtanen screwed up his development. He came into camp way too heavy and in bad shape. In the NHL, especially when you're a forechecking, backchecking, pace pushing, powerforward, good shape doesn't cut it. You need to be in excellent shape among other things to handle that workload night in night out for 82 games. You have to eat right, sleep right, work out right, etc.

 

Virtanen has NHL calibre skillset where he can be a legitimate middle 6 player and on his way up. He has the skating, the strength, the size, the power, the shot, the hands, etc to be an effective player. He mainly lacks 2 things that are holding him back.

 

1. Pro athlete skills: He needs to learn how to be a professional athlete day in and day out. He's used to using his incredible athletisicm to get him by where he can perform well and do whatever he wants. Now on the NHL level you have to mature mentally and do all those things off the ice, that allow you to play on the ice. The main thing, as we all know, is his conditioning. But it sounds like being in Utica has been a wake up call for him where he is starting to take it more seriously. Green and Benning said he's done great work, shedding 10-15 pounds this season and now can play a 50-60 second shift hard, rather than the 30-40 he could do before. That is huge because it will allow him to actually use his skills on an NHL roster.
2. His defensive game: In the NHL, offensive skills are great, but that's not usually what get's you on the roster. Look at Horvat, or I would even say Stecher over Subban. Stecher proved that he could defend good enough to be on the roster, as did Horvat. That's what gave Stecher the job over Subban, and Horvat the  job over McCann. Defensive skills get you on the roster, offensive skills move you up the lineup. But if you don't have the defensive skills, you can't even get on the team. Green has Virtanen working on that part of his game more than anything else (except conditioning.) He, and Benning know Utica just won't and isn't a high scoring team this year. Virtanen is not some high profile playmaker. He's a guy a playmaker hands the puck to, and he finishes the play, as well as being an impactful pace pushing, wrecking ball on the wing. If Virtanen can get his defensive skills up, as well as his conditioning, he could and would be a menace to play against and a matchup nightmare for smaller forwards. I would love to see a Baertschi - Horvat - Virtanen shutdown middle 6 line. Virtanen will be back in the NHL, and when he is, the offense will start to come.

Virtanen may not be impressing now, but he is not showing signs of being a bust. Just major signs of a guy that will take a little longer than expected, (due to nobodie's fault but his own) but don't misunderstand that to mean he all of a sudden lost all of his talent and all of his potential. The coaches know this, and I trust them. Green will get Virtanen right for next season, whether in Vancouver or Utica. 

I wish I could give you a thousand plusses. And a hug.

[JM_]

5 hours ago, Mr.53 said:

A lot of people just don't seem to see what the coaching staff is doing with Virtanen. To be fair, none of us exactly live in Utica and get to see his step by step progression, and therefore rely on numbers, and news sources.

 

Virtanen is a good player. He had 13 points in 55 games as a 19 year old powerforward in the NHL. That's not bad at all, by any means of the word. The problem happened next season, when Virtanen screwed up his development. He came into camp way too heavy and in bad shape. In the NHL, especially when you're a forechecking, backchecking, pace pushing, powerforward, good shape doesn't cut it. You need to be in excellent shape among other things to handle that workload night in night out for 82 games. You have to eat right, sleep right, work out right, etc.

 

Virtanen has NHL calibre skillset where he can be a legitimate middle 6 player and on his way up. He has the skating, the strength, the size, the power, the shot, the hands, etc to be an effective player. He mainly lacks 2 things that are holding him back.

 

1. Pro athlete skills: He needs to learn how to be a professional athlete day in and day out. He's used to using his incredible athletisicm to get him by where he can perform well and do whatever he wants. Now on the NHL level you have to mature mentally and do all those things off the ice, that allow you to play on the ice. The main thing, as we all know, is his conditioning. But it sounds like being in Utica has been a wake up call for him where he is starting to take it more seriously. Green and Benning said he's done great work, shedding 10-15 pounds this season and now can play a 50-60 second shift hard, rather than the 30-40 he could do before. That is huge because it will allow him to actually use his skills on an NHL roster.
2. His defensive game: In the NHL, offensive skills are great, but that's not usually what get's you on the roster. Look at Horvat, or I would even say Stecher over Subban. Stecher proved that he could defend good enough to be on the roster, as did Horvat. That's what gave Stecher the job over Subban, and Horvat the  job over McCann. Defensive skills get you on the roster, offensive skills move you up the lineup. But if you don't have the defensive skills, you can't even get on the team. Green has Virtanen working on that part of his game more than anything else (except conditioning.) He, and Benning know Utica just won't and isn't a high scoring team this year. Virtanen is not some high profile playmaker. He's a guy a playmaker hands the puck to, and he finishes the play, as well as being an impactful pace pushing, wrecking ball on the wing. If Virtanen can get his defensive skills up, as well as his conditioning, he could and would be a menace to play against and a matchup nightmare for smaller forwards. I would love to see a Baertschi - Horvat - Virtanen shutdown middle 6 line. Virtanen will be back in the NHL, and when he is, the offense will start to come.

Virtanen may not be impressing now, but he is not showing signs of being a bust. Just major signs of a guy that will take a little longer than expected, (due to nobodie's fault but his own) but don't misunderstand that to mean he all of a sudden lost all of his talent and all of his potential. The coaches know this, and I trust them. Green will get Virtanen right for next season, whether in Vancouver or Utica. 

 

Or just loan him to the Marlies, thats where magic happens