Nucker 67 Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 1 minute ago, aGENT said: They would need to play pretty poorly to get put on waivers. If they play so poorly and get beat out by other, better players that they get put on waivers, they likely clear. And even if not, is hardly something we should worry about as we have other, better players... Yes, I guess so, it would be a risk. The idea of value is interesting because even though these young players haven't blown the doors off the NHL (yet), then they have little to no value? What about what the player could become? Goldobin, especially, is very skilled and confident, and who knows what his ceiling is. We know what Gagner's ceiling is lol I would hate to lose Goldy for nothing because Green prefers to put Gagner in the lineup, for example. But as you say, the players have to earn the spot. Hoping Goldobin earns a spot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 14 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said: Yes, I guess so, it would be a risk. The idea of value is interesting because even though these young players haven't blown the doors off the NHL (yet), then they have little to no value? What about what the player could become? Goldobin, especially, is very skilled and confident, and who knows what his ceiling is. We know what Gagner's ceiling is lol I would hate to lose Goldy for nothing because Green prefers to put Gagner in the lineup, for example. But as you say, the players have to earn the spot. Hoping Goldobin earns a spot. I've already got Gagner as spare/waived/traded. He's not Goldobin's probelm. If Goldobin loses his spot to a Gaudette, Leipsic or Dahlen though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanukfanatic Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 10 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: I agree that Baertschi had a lot more people in his corner and that had a huge impact on his getting the opportunity here. But the one thing to remember is the reason Sven got so little icetime in Calgary (which resulted in him requesting a trade) was because Hartley and Brian Burke didn’t think Sven was very good defensively. “There are three zones in the ice surfaces in this league,” Burke said back in 2013. “I don’t see that he’s learned to play and compete in two of them.” Baertschi had to learn that side of the game while he was here, and that’s something that he became much better at in his 22-23 year old year. The same age Goldy is today. “I think he’s really grown as a defensive player,” Horvat says of Baertschi. “It seems like he’s always in the right position defensively, and even in the offensive zone he’s ready to jump back onto defence. That’s something he’s really worked on in his game and it’s showed this year.” As far as the playoffs I’m not sure what you’re referring to. IF you’re talking about his short call up, I don’t know if you can state he was the difference maker. I remember quite well as I got to watch 3 of those 5 games live, it was exciting he was able to score, he played extremely limited/sheltered minutes and he was in no way carrying the team. If you are referring to his Junior days, I don’t think that hold much water 4 years later, just as Cassels, who’s now off to Europe. The thing about green is he understands the difference between a 2 way player and a pure skill guy. He understands confidence and the overall effect it has on a players game. He knows that many skilled players need to put in the best positions to succeed and they have to be given time in those positions to allow them to get comfortable. But back to my point, there’s not one doubt in my mind that Green and JB already have a solid idea of what they are doing with Goldi this year. If they believe he’s somewhat capable of becoming an effective top 6 winger in this league they will keep him. IF they don’t believe it, short of him putting up multi point nights in all his preseason games (which is an unrealistic expectation), he will be waived. 3 weeks of un-structured hockey isn’t what going to make or break Goldi’s Canucks career. If they decide Goldy just isn't getting it maybe they can get a 4th rounder for him. I would rather Goldy proves people wrong and finally works hard consistently and plays some defense though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kloubek Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, aGENT said: I've already got Gagner as ...waived Do you? I know CDC rags on Gagner a lot and I get why, but he is only 1 season removed from 50 points and it's not like even last campaign was a disaster. He just wasn't impressive at all. He's clearly not playing to his contract, but we're not concerned about cap space. If Benning and Green don't believe Goldobin can play in this league then our points need to come from somewhere and at least Gagner can contribute. I like Goldobin though and if you project his stats last season to 82 games, he too would have got around 30-31 points which is just a little less per game than Gagner. The real problem here is that his +/- projected would be somewhere around -30 which is absolutely atrocious… made even more so when you consider his relatively sheltered role. If Goldobin wants to stay in the league he's going to have to learn to play without the puck, and learn quickly. Either that, or he's going to have to become far more explosive and a puck hound to offset that complete and utter mess of a defensive game. It would be a shame to just give up on him and lose him to waivers, but just like with Jordan Subban, sometimes a player just can't "get it". Edited September 13, 2018 by kloubek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 4 minutes ago, kloubek said: Do you? I know CDC rags on Gagner a lot and I get why, but he is only 1 season removed from 50 points and it's not like even last campaign was a disaster. He just wasn't impressive at all. He's clearly not playing to his contract, but we're not concerned about cap space. If Benning and Green don't believe Goldobin can play in this league then our points need to come from somewhere and at least Gagner can contribute. I like Goldobin though and if you project his stats last season to 82 games, he too would have got around 30-31 points which is just a little less per game than Gagner. The real problem here is that his +/- projected would be somewhere around -30 which is absolutely atrocious… made even more so when you consider his relatively sheltered role. If Goldobin wants to stay in the league he's going to have to learn to play without the puck, and learn quickly. Either that, or he's going to have to become far more explosive and a puck hound to offset that complete and utter mess of a defensive game. It would be a shame to just give up on him and lose him to waivers, but just like with Jordan Subban, sometimes a player just can't "get it". 7 hours ago, aGENT said: I've already got Gagner as spare/waived/traded. He's not Goldobin's probelm. If Goldobin loses his spot to a Gaudette, Leipsic or Dahlen though... Nice edit. You cut out 'spare/traded'. And I disagree, he's playing pretty much exactly to his contract. 3 years X $3m doesn't exactly buy you a superstar. We'll see more this camp but it's starting to look more and more like his services may no longer be required. Agree on Goldobin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 10 hours ago, kloubek said: Do you? I know CDC rags on Gagner a lot and I get why, but he is only 1 season removed from 50 points and it's not like even last campaign was a disaster. He just wasn't impressive at all. He's clearly not playing to his contract, but we're not concerned about cap space. If Benning and Green don't believe Goldobin can play in this league then our points need to come from somewhere and at least Gagner can contribute. Aside from mass injuries, can't see any scenario where he makes the opening roster or at least isn't seriously on the bubble, moreso than any other veteran than perhaps Gaunce although he's more a middle-six player. Is he really going to prevent Gaudette from making the team? Gagner has the capacity to put up reasonable points, but does he play the style that Green plans to deploy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kloubek Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 13 minutes ago, Hutton Wink said: Aside from mass injuries, can't see any scenario where he makes the opening roster or at least isn't seriously on the bubble, moreso than any other veteran than perhaps Gaunce although he's more a middle-six player. Is he really going to prevent Gaudette from making the team? Gagner has the capacity to put up reasonable points, but does he play the style that Green plans to deploy? It's tough, because we want to put up the points to remain competitive but we also need to let our young guys play. So would he prevent Gaudette from playing? I sure hope not, but we simply have too many forwards so it seems to me that somebody who should be playing isn't going to be able to. To me, once a couple of our young guys establish themselves we would be better off trading Gagne then putting him on waivers and losing him for nothing. Somebody has got to be willing to add him to their lineup for a low round pick... 10 hours ago, aGENT said: Nice edit. You cut out 'spare/traded'. And I disagree, he's playing pretty much exactly to his contract. 3 years X $3m doesn't exactly buy you a superstar. We'll see more this camp but it's starting to look more and more like his services may no longer be required. The edit was intentional to focus on that portion of what you said, and I simply wanted to point out that he isn't really the horrible player that everyone on CDC makes him out to be. You're right - 3m isn't that much - though I WAS hoping we were going to get that guy who scored 50 points. Maybe now with the push from the young pups he will feel the need to push himself to those levels again. Camp will be interesting; there is going to be the most competition I've ever seen as a Canuck fan for available spots. I'm interested to see what vets aren't going to be able to elevate their game, which young guys DO elevate their game, and how Green handles both and who he actually ends up placing in the lineup. Both he and Benning have said all along that they are going to give young guys an opportunity to play, so we will see if they stay true to their word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 2 hours ago, kloubek said: I simply wanted to point out that he isn't really the horrible player that everyone on CDC makes him out to be. Not everyone on CDC does. I was all for signing him as the expendable, professional vet stop gap he is and I think he's done just fine for why we signed him/what his contract is. IMO people who were expecting 'more' had expectations that were WAY out to lunch. He's simply become expendable sooner than anticipated (Pettersson and Gaudette both surpassing expectations/timelines). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RetroCanuck Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 5 minutes ago, aGENT said: Not everyone on CDC does. I was all for signing him as the expendable, professional vet stop gap he is and I think he's done just fine for why we signed him/what his contract is. IMO people who were expecting 'more' had expectations that were WAY out to lunch. He's simply become expendable sooner than anticipated (Pettersson and Gaudette both surpassing expectations/timelines). Not to mention other prospects who could/should be knocking on the door in the next year. Dahlen, MacEwen, Lind, Palmu and Gadjovich. I really like Goldy as a player but he's going to need to solidify his top 6 spot quickly this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, RetroCanuck said: Not to mention other prospects who could/should be knocking on the door in the next year. Dahlen, MacEwen, Lind, Palmu and Gadjovich. I really like Goldy as a player but he's going to need to solidify his top 6 spot quickly this year. Yup, Gagner was signed as insurance against a retiring Hank and lack of ready prospects. Hank retired but EP and AG both progressed WAY faster/better than likely expected and we added Leipsic, Lind etc to Goldobin and Dahlen all of whom at least look like possibilities to be in the lineup sooner than later. You buy insurance for a reason and hope you don't need it...well, looks like we don't need it. Edited September 13, 2018 by aGENT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RetroCanuck Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 14 minutes ago, aGENT said: Yup, Gagner was signed as insurance against a retiring Hank and lack of ready prospects. Hank retired but EP and AG both progressed WAY faster/better than likely expected and we added Leipsic, Lind etc to Goldobin and Dahlen all of whom at least look like possibilities to be in the lineup sooner than later. You buy insurance for a reason and hope you don't need it...well, looks like we don't need it. Yep you just hope that the Veterans aren't gifted spots purely due to their contracts, if younger players outplay them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRAZY_4_NAZZY Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 Scored three in the intersquad game 1 on a breakaway, 1 on a penalty shot, and 1 empty netter. The goals that he scores tells me 1 thing. He knows where to be for the puck to find him. On a breakaway he knows where to be to get the pass and find himself room, penalty shot likely warranted because he had body position and was fouled against, and simple empty net goal he was in a good spot to get the puck and hoist it in. Can't tell if that is a byproduct of his dedication to be better as a skater and working harder, but you don't just find the puck on your stick from lack of understanding where to be and when to get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 On 9/12/2018 at 12:23 PM, NUCKER67 said: I would think, though, that both players are young, very skilled and cost little. They would be scooped up fast and we wouldn't get anything in return. Whereas, a player like Gagner is a veteran player who makes over $3 million. I doubt any team will take that on. EVERY team has players that are young, skilled and cost little that they will waive. Not many teams have expendable players with nearly 800 career games and more than 400 career points who can still skate at NHL level and who will be exposed to waivers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Rob_Zepp Posted September 17, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted September 17, 2018 On 9/13/2018 at 9:58 AM, RetroCanuck said: Yep you just hope that the Veterans aren't gifted spots purely due to their contracts, if younger players outplay them. That is what the team has said over and over and over and over.... Thing is, however, that they also didn't say that cdc or any fan-based input was going to be the basis for that decision on "outplay". A kid gets three goals in a scrimmage but may have ignored all his defensive assignments will not be chosen over a veteran that did all the things asked of him...for example. 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenhodgejr Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 I think Goldobin will be in our top 6 and have a break out season. He will score a lot and help win games for the Canucks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RetroCanuck Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 5 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said: That is what the team has said over and over and over and over.... Thing is, however, that they also didn't say that cdc or any fan-based input was going to be the basis for that decision on "outplay". A kid gets three goals in a scrimmage but may have ignored all his defensive assignments will not be chosen over a veteran that did all the things asked of him...for example. haha first of all this was posted last thursday before Goldy had a good game. Second, one can say something and do another. We have to see if a guy like Goldy outplays a veteran (offensively and defensively) and then we will see If Benning and co. stay true to what they've said "over and over and over"... For a guy that complains about fan based input you sure do spill a lot of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 9 hours ago, RetroCanuck said: haha first of all this was posted last thursday before Goldy had a good game. Second, one can say something and do another. We have to see if a guy like Goldy outplays a veteran (offensively and defensively) and then we will see If Benning and co. stay true to what they've said "over and over and over"... For a guy that complains about fan based input you sure do spill a lot of it. Uh, ok. I just get a large kick out of the "fans" who feel they can evaluate the performance of players better than that of a coaching staff that sees all the players each and every day, watches the games at ice level and then pours over hours of video afterwards. It is amusing to read some of the proclamations of outrage when a player who may have had a good scrimmage(s) or exhibition game(s) suddenly is "held back" by coaches/management who "gifted" a veteran who didn't earn it. "Uh, ya, coaches and management are always wanting to make sure to ice a poorer and more expensive line-up, they have no interest in icing the team with the chance at success. Nope, they also don't understand player development and hold players back in spite of them being ready and having outplayed vets." Seriously....that appears to be what some here think and perhaps including yourself if you are implying that the team would not take the best possible option when making personnel decisions. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johngould21 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 15 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said: That is what the team has said over and over and over and over.... Thing is, however, that they also didn't say that cdc or any fan-based input was going to be the basis for that decision on "outplay". A kid gets three goals in a scrimmage but may have ignored all his defensive assignments will not be chosen over a veteran that did all the things asked of him...for example. IF, Goldobin is going to make this team, he will probably have to play lights out in at least 4 of the 5 upcoming games, if not all 5. I haven't seen the consistency in his game to warrant a spot in the NHL, but, I hope he proves me wrong. The same goes for Dahlen, Gaudette, and OJ. The guys that should be more than a bit worried, Gaunce, Gagner, Granlund, and one of Hutton and Poulliot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skategal Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 I hope I'm wrong in this, but I'd be surprised if Goldobin makes the team beyond the quarter mark of the season. Admittedly, I haven't seen any of the scrimmages, and perhaps he's turned into a ferocious back checker and tenacious player along the boards. I saw a tweet from one of the media (ok, not a great source) that commented on the incident in scrimmage where he got a stick up high, and the sense was there was zero sympathy among his team mates. Makes me wonder how good a fit he is in an environment where effort and hard work are held to a high standard. He seems to be much more a "happy go lucky" sort, and while I have no doubt he has worked hard over the summer and his conditioning is good, if he's not putting in 100% effort on the ice and in the weight room all the time someone like Beagle is going to call him out hard. Yes, we need scoring, but not many players like a goal suck who floats around at the blue line. Hope I'm wrong and he's seen the light but I'm not convinced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 3 minutes ago, johngould21 said: IF, Goldobin is going to make this team, he will probably have to play lights out in at least 4 of the 5 upcoming games, if not all 5. I haven't seen the consistency in his game to warrant a spot in the NHL, but, I hope he proves me wrong. The same goes for Dahlen, Gaudette, and OJ. The guys that should be more than a bit worried, Gaunce, Gagner, Granlund, and one of Hutton and Poulliot. I think another wild card to make the team is a prospect few seem to be talking about but from what I hear he is making HUGE impression on coaching staff and getting peeks from around the NHL is Motte. Tyler has elite speed, uses his size well and was a point-per-game player across his NCAA career (not easy to do). I think he could be a surprising "make the team" over players like Goldy. Guess we all find out in a couple of weeks. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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