JM_ Posted May 24, 2017 Author Share Posted May 24, 2017 1 hour ago, debluvscanucks said: Keep the personal stuff out of it please/thanks. it all still pretty raw for a lot of people. But i really think in a week or so people will realize that things wont - can't - be the same even if/when Weaver supports one budget cycle. I've wanted change in the Liberal party for a while now, and this will do it. There's just no way Clark can avoid a leadership crisis, I think we'll start to see calls for a leadership review within 2-3 weeks. She may not be "gone" but effectively, she's done. She was barely able to keep it together with an outright win last time. This minority situation will force the parties to work together, and even under Harper that worked occasionally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inane Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 23 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Whatever pal. I get it. You don't like the question so it's childish or it is rhetoric. I ask what if he is no better or worse than what we have now and you don't want to answer it. There is no strawman here, it's a pretty simple question to which you IMMEDIATELY quoted something that really had little to do with the question I asked. INstead opting to quote someone else because i asked you to not quote yourself. Which is simply lazy You're refusing to answer a pretty basic question. That says enough for me really. C'est la vie. I won't bother asking you another question here, I figure if you cannot find the modicum of respect needed to answer such a basic question there is not point 'What if'. You could play the what if game for everything and never make any decisions. Why let 'what if' hold you back from trying anything new? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 26 minutes ago, J.R. said: It is childish rhetoric. Sorry. You're attempting to frame discussion by manipulating/omitting information and presenting questions regarding off tangent 'what if's'. That's the definition of straw man actually. I'll tell you what I do expect. I expect him to be a politician and press his party's agenda within that framework and present realities. Make of that what you will. I quoted someone else because their post already addressed your manipulative 'concern'. Pardon my efficiency. If you can't find a modicum of respect for actual, real discussion and not resort to childish rhetoric, manipulation and straw manning, I see no reason why I should grant you better responses than your posts have demanded. I'll not play games. Sure thing bud. It's cool. We'll just leave it at that k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 8 minutes ago, inane said: 'What if'. You could play the what if game for everything and never make any decisions. Why let 'what if' hold you back from trying anything new? I try new things all the time. But we are where we are and I simply asked a question that is apparently a "strawman argument" childish and full of rhetoric. It's remarkable how fast those words fly out when someone simply doesn't want to answer a simple question But then I must be simple because I don't see or understand how asking what if he is no different is a misrepresented proposition set up because it is easier to defeat than JRs argument. Because there is no argument. I just asked a VERY simple question that could be answered pretty easily but instead....strawman, rhetoric, childish. Now, I bought this new tea, kinda smells like birthday cake. Figure I will try that out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inane Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 2 minutes ago, Warhippy said: I try new things all the time. But we are where we are and I simply asked a question that is apparently a "strawman argument" childish and full of rhetoric. It's remarkable how fast those words fly out when someone simply doesn't want to answer a simple question But then I must be simple because I don't see or understand how asking what if he is no different is a misrepresented proposition set up because it is easier to defeat than JRs argument. Because there is no argument. I just asked a VERY simple question that could be answered pretty easily but instead....strawman, rhetoric, childish. Now, I bought this new tea, kinda smells like birthday cake. Figure I will try that out. But why ask it is my point. What if he follows through and does all that? What if he does even more? 'What if' is just a silly point of discussion cause you could what if yourself into supporting or opposing anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heretic Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 Seriously now, how long does it take to count 900 ballots???? ---------------------------------- Day 2 of B.C. election final count ends with NDP leading by 101 votes in Courtenay-Comox Around 900 absentee ballots still to be counted in the crucial riding By Justin McElroy, CBC News Posted: May 23, 2017 6:01 PM PT Last Updated: May 24, 2017 7:15 AM PT British Columbia will have to wait at least one more day for a final result in the 2017 provincial election. There are still approximately 17,000 absentee ballots to be counted by Elections BC in 14 ridings, including around 900 in the crucial riding of Courtenay-Comox. There, NDP candidate Ronna-Rae Leonard leads by 101 votes over Liberal candidate Jim Benninger. Across the province, the B.C. Liberals' popular vote lead over the NDP has shrunk to 2,612 votes — 793,213 votes to 790,601. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-election-final-count-keeps-going-1.4128494 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 8 minutes ago, inane said: But why ask it is my point. What if he follows through and does all that? What if he does even more? 'What if' is just a silly point of discussion cause you could what if yourself into supporting or opposing anything. A provincial party leader campaigning on something different then days after the election asking for special treatment, constitutional changes for preferential treatment of their party does not seem like someone who wants genuine change IMO. That's the what if. I stated very clearly we've seen good people get elected and turn out to be no better than the system they promised to change. Call it apathy, call it cynicism, but we've seen it far to often. When someone stands up and promotes something you have to ask the question I am asking. What if it is to good to be true, what if they are no different. What happens to the electorate of a 2 party province then? Where goes the hope of a viable 3rd party option if said 3rd option turns out to be no better than the system they wanted to change. This IS a viable question, it is not rhetoric, it is not childish nor is it a strawman argument. Avoiding it is simple ignorance because if a person cannot look and be objective and weigh those possibilities than they stand on a very shaky foundation. I asked myself the EXACT same question pre election which is why I eschewed voting for a party and instead voted for a person. Now, I seriously suggest you try this tea, it's surprisingly good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 Just now, Heretic said: Seriously now, how long does it take to count 900 ballots???? ---------------------------------- Day 2 of B.C. election final count ends with NDP leading by 101 votes in Courtenay-Comox Around 900 absentee ballots still to be counted in the crucial riding By Justin McElroy, CBC News Posted: May 23, 2017 6:01 PM PT Last Updated: May 24, 2017 7:15 AM PT British Columbia will have to wait at least one more day for a final result in the 2017 provincial election. There are still approximately 17,000 absentee ballots to be counted by Elections BC in 14 ridings, including around 900 in the crucial riding of Courtenay-Comox. There, NDP candidate Ronna-Rae Leonard leads by 101 votes over Liberal candidate Jim Benninger. Across the province, the B.C. Liberals' popular vote lead over the NDP has shrunk to 2,612 votes — 793,213 votes to 790,601. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-election-final-count-keeps-going-1.4128494 Due to the secrecy regarding the absentee balloting process there are 2 or 3 stages to counting each ballot and each stage has to be accounted for and verified, they did say up to a month or more post election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inane Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 1 minute ago, Warhippy said: A provincial party leader campaigning on something different then days after the election asking for special treatment, constitutional changes for preferential treatment of their party does not seem like someone who wants genuine change IMO. That's the what if. I stated very clearly we've seen good people get elected and turn out to be no better than the system they promised to change. Call it apathy, call it cynicism, but we've seen it far to often. When someone stands up and promotes something you have to ask the question I am asking. What if it is to good to be true, what if they are no different. What happens to the electorate of a 2 party province then? Where goes the hope of a viable 3rd party option if said 3rd option turns out to be no better than the system they wanted to change. This IS a viable question, it is not rhetoric, it is not childish nor is it a strawman argument. Avoiding it is simple ignorance because if a person cannot look and be objective and weigh those possibilities than they stand on a very shaky foundation. I asked myself the EXACT same question pre election which is why I eschewed voting for a party and instead voted for a person. Now, I seriously suggest you try this tea, it's surprisingly good. Asking questions is good, asking 'what if', imo, is a fool's game. But have at er. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 9 minutes ago, inane said: Asking questions is good, asking 'what if', imo, is a fool's game. But have at er. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heretic Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 29 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Due to the secrecy regarding the absentee balloting process there are 2 or 3 stages to counting each ballot and each stage has to be accounted for and verified, they did say up to a month or more post election. If it takes 1 minute to do each, and you have even only 10 people doing the counts, that's 90 minutes. Oh heck, take 2 mins, and it's still only 3 hours....and if there are more than 10 people... Or is there some little old granny doing it all by herself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 1 minute ago, Heretic said: If it takes 1 minute to do each, and you have even only 10 people doing the counts, that's 90 minutes. Oh heck, take 2 mins, and it's still only 3 hours....and if there are more than 10 people... Or is there some little old granny doing it all by herself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heretic Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 We have an update! CTV Vancouver Published Wednesday, May 24, 2017 11:20AM PDT Last Updated Wednesday, May 24, 2017 12:06PM PDT The NDP has increased its narrow lead in Courtenay-Comox, but there remain hundreds of absentee ballots to be counted. Elections BC is gradually tallying the ballots across the province for its final count, and put NDP candidate Ronna-Rae Leonard's vote count at 10,618 at noon Wednesday, 148 over her Liberal rival Jim Benninger. http://bc.ctvnews.ca/ndp-pulls-further-ahead-in-courtenay-comox-riding-1.3427476 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 14 minutes ago, Heretic said: If it takes 1 minute to do each, and you have even only 10 people doing the counts, that's 90 minutes. Oh heck, take 2 mins, and it's still only 3 hours....and if there are more than 10 people... Or is there some little old granny doing it all by herself? Government always works so slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonLever Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 24 minutes ago, Heretic said: We have an update! CTV Vancouver Published Wednesday, May 24, 2017 11:20AM PDT Last Updated Wednesday, May 24, 2017 12:06PM PDT The NDP has increased its narrow lead in Courtenay-Comox, but there remain hundreds of absentee ballots to be counted. Elections BC is gradually tallying the ballots across the province for its final count, and put NDP candidate Ronna-Rae Leonard's vote count at 10,618 at noon Wednesday, 148 over her Liberal rival Jim Benninger. http://bc.ctvnews.ca/ndp-pulls-further-ahead-in-courtenay-comox-riding-1.3427476 You know who will win the riding when the vote counts increase every time there is an update. The NDP will take the riding 100%. Its will be a minority government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 1 hour ago, S'all Good Man said: it all still pretty raw for a lot of people. But i really think in a week or so people will realize that things wont - can't - be the same even if/when Weaver supports one budget cycle. I've wanted change in the Liberal party for a while now, and this will do it. There's just no way Clark can avoid a leadership crisis, I think we'll start to see calls for a leadership review within 2-3 weeks. She may not be "gone" but effectively, she's done. She was barely able to keep it together with an outright win last time. This minority situation will force the parties to work together, and even under Harper that worked occasionally. To what end though? Again, the name and face of the puppet makes little difference to the party (and money) behind it. The public will have their 'witch hanging' but does anything actually change? Them being forced to work with Weaver and actually having to implement Green party initiatives will have far more effect than any Liberal leadership change (though they'll certainly attempt to spin it as such). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapper Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 The sad reality is that the party with the highest seat count is the tax and debt party - the BC Liberals. Under their term we have seen our debt rise by 139 billion dollars. We need to pay that off - we simply can not leave our kids with that crippling debt with interest rates set to rise. That is 30 thousand dollars each for every single person in BC. Do we send each person a bill? Do we say to heck with the future and run that credit through the roof? Even if we stopped spending on all education and health it would take years to pay of the liberal debts. With the liberals having no plans to put more BC people back to work in family supporting jobs - its time to deal with this runaway debt. It will only continue to grow. Voters have by a margin of 40% voted in favor of high debt and increased taxes/fees. I joked about bringing in an idiot tax if the liberals were reelected, but now its time to face the bill. We need to either move forward on things that put BC workers back to work at family supporting jobs - things like ending the TFW program completely, lower tuition to retrain people, affordable childcare so women can afford to work etc .... or we need to put back ALL of those business tax cuts to stop the bleeding. There is no more taxes - fees - cuts we can do to the working middle class .... we have cut social spending to a bare minimum. We have sold off much of BC - what's left other than facing the fact that business's free ride on taxes needs to end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 3 hours ago, J.R. said: Getting rid of the Liberals would accomplish that. Getting rid of Clark doesn't. Thinking Clark specifically, remotely matters in the big picture, is beyond naive Deb. Weaver isn't 'tying himself to Clark'. He's working within political realities to ensure Green issues and mandates are addressed and enacted while bettering his party's status to hopefully build even further on that in the future. As a Green supporter, I completely endorse it. This is politics, not a friendly tea party. It's a dirty, underhanded business of gamesmanship, back scratching, handshakes and back stabbing. You have to get dirty to get things done unfortunately. Getting rid of Clarke gets rid of the puppet who so easily can lie with a smile on her face. Some will be softened to a woman who is a mother...this whole families first nonsense was built on that. Playing into the family/motherly stuff. Greens shouldn't focus on buddying up to ensure their issues and mandates are addressed. That's the entire problem to date...is that some are "using" others to get what they need. It becomes a political back scratch...and we need to get rid of the you do for me and I'll do for you. It IS politics...but the greens are supposed to be changing things. Or...are they? Not a friendly tea party...but a gathering of people with integrity who want to rid politics of the corruption and the money exchange that rules based on greed, not ethics or community interests. Or perhaps that's just how they've sold themselves and they're no different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted May 24, 2017 Author Share Posted May 24, 2017 17 minutes ago, J.R. said: To what end though? Again, the name and face of the puppet makes little difference to the party (and money) behind it. The public will have their 'witch hanging' but does anything actually change? Them being forced to work with Weaver and actually having to implement Green party initiatives will have far more effect than any Liberal leadership change (though they'll certainly attempt to spin it as such). it can have a big impact, thats true. I just see parties more like holding tanks for ideas most of the time, but in our case in BC the huge dollars involved has changed things. People focus on the Libs. but the NDP also gladly took 6 mil as well. If we can stop that and get to proportional gov't I think we can start to move towards more positive change. So, lets see what Weaver does next. I'm hopeful he can move the needle. I don't think making deals on a case by case basis is some kind of turn around on his principles tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted May 24, 2017 Author Share Posted May 24, 2017 8 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said: Not a friendly tea party...but a gathering of people with integrity who want to rid politics of the corruption and the money exchange that rules based on greed, not ethics or community interests. Or perhaps that's just how they've sold themselves and they're no different? We're going to find out pretty quick. There's 2 key moments coming up quickly, the throne speech and the budget. If Clark refuses to budge and doesn't get rid of our sleazy donation system then the Greens can simply give their support to the NDP. It doesn't feel like change yet, but it really is. I just can't see a way for Clark to survive this in any long term way, or be able to keep things as they are. IMO we have to judge them on what they negotiate for, not so much on whether its with the Libs or NDP per se - is it things that line their pockets or things give us a better democracy, or housing system? or education? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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