[Poll] Dman 5th overall

[goblix]

Only want a defense in this draft if we get another top 10 pick.

 

Choose glass at 5 and defense after that for whoever falls in place in Makar or Liljegren. I'd rather have a RHD rather than heiskenen...

[D.B Cooper]

2 hours ago, NUCKER67 said:

Just from the videos I've seen, there are two issues I have with Liljegren

 

1) He's not a physical player, and

2) he is a bit of a puck hog and hangs on to the puck too long. I can see this causing big problems being stripped of the puck, or getting caught up ice, etc.

Ok. 

1. Why would he need to be a physical player?   The kid can skate himself out of harms way easily, and why does he need to go around smashing people?

you don't see people complaining about Karlsson not hitting people.  

Its not their game. 

 

2. The kids hands and decision making abilities are right up there with his incredible skating talents.  

You want someone like that with the puck on his stick.  

[D.B Cooper]

2 hours ago, kloubek said:

I believe you're probably right on the 2nd point, but where did you get your information that Liljegrin was in the top 2?  I NEVER saw him that high, from ANY source. 

 

Not calling you a liar... I just hadn't seen it.

Check out Vancan2233 post above^^

He answered your question. 

[funkyfresh]

16 minutes ago, drummerboy said:

Ok. 

1. Why would he need to be a physical player?   The kid can skate himself out of harms way easily, and why does he need to go around smashing people?

you don't see people complaining about Karlsson not hitting people.  

Its not their game. 

 

2. The kids hands and decision making abilities are right up there with his incredible skating talents.  

You want someone like that with the puck on his stick.  

His decision-making, when he has the puck, is the primary reason he has been dropping this season.

[samurai]

Sucks are going to take the most dynamic player in the draft - Mittelstadt

[Grape]

1 hour ago, HomeBrew said:

Broooo, it also says sometimes Finland is included in Scandinavia, but most commonly is referred to as Nordic. Just saying it is not as definitive as you make it sound. 

That's like calling Taiwanese people Chinese. Sure it's not definitive but it's widely accepted and perhaps would be offensive to a Taiwanese/Finnish person.

 

Just my 2cents.

[D.B Cooper]

16 minutes ago, funkyfresh said:

His decision-making, when he has the puck, is the primary reason he has been dropping this season.

Well that's just wrong.  His season this year was pretty much a write off.  That's why he fell.   He has high end IQ

[ForsbergTheGreat]

17 minutes ago, drummerboy said:

Well that's just wrong.  His season this year was pretty much a write off.  That's why he fell.   He has high end IQ

Actually his IQ is why he's been falling. He's been making very low probability decisions and not making smart plays when he has the puck (edler esq),  It could be a sign of low confidence, trying too much, or not having the high hockey IQ people once thought he had

[TheSnipeshow91]

If Heiskanen is available at 5 I wouldn't hesitate to take him. He could play either LD or RD so he could pair with Juolevi. Reminds me of Duncan Keith, Juolevi-Heiskanen could very well be our version of the Keith-Seabrook pair.

[King Heffy]

I'd prefer a D if we can't trade the pick.  I don't think there's any C that is likely to be a top line center or even a good #2.    Go draft a D as they take longer than anyone to develop.  Prefer Heiskanen but OK with any of them.

[DeNiro]

21 minutes ago, TheSnipeshow91 said:

If Heiskanen is available at 5 I wouldn't hesitate to take him. He could play either LD or RD so he could pair with Juolevi. Reminds me of Duncan Keith, Juolevi-Heiskanen could very well be our version of the Keith-Seabrook pair.

Part of what make Keith and Seabrook so hard to play against is that they play with an edge to their game. Neither of those guys play with that same edge.

 

They would be a very reliable pairing, but I think that pairing would lack the physicality and intensity needed for the playoffs.

[kloubek]

1 hour ago, drummerboy said:

Check out Vancan2233 post above^^

He answered your question. 

I did.  Thanks for posting that... I didnt realize he had been so highly rated/ranked.  Lets face it folks.... We need a guy on our blueline that can get us points.  Hutton and Stecher are better than expected, but I don't know if either could be "that guy".  

 

I generally trust Benning though, and am looking forward to seeing another talented prospect join our system.

[funkyfresh]

42 minutes ago, drummerboy said:

Well that's just wrong.  His season this year was pretty much a write off.  That's why he fell.   He has high end IQ

https://recrutes.ca/grants-slant/

 

Quote

As the season has gone on several things have stood out in regards to Swedish defence prospect Timothy Liljegren. There is no question that he is a natural, smooth skater, and that first and foremost is why scouts were so high on him going into the season. He also has good puck skills, and is able to dangle at the U18 level and without question he is one of the more skilled players in this draft.

 

What is disconcerting to me and many in the scouting community is his vision, sense, shot and decision-making, and they really lead me to wonder just how much offensive upside he will bring at the NHL level. I have a hard time envisioning him ever being a double digits goal scorer as he simply does not have the shot or instinct to find the open lanes to shoot at the opportune time. He takes wrist shots the majority of the time…I’m not sure how effective his slapshot is as it’s rarely utilized…and his shot lacks heavy velocity with rare exceptions

 

Equally as troubling are his passing skills in the offensive zone in particular…his overwhelming tendency is to shoot…the quicker the better. He rarely finds the best shooting location however…especially on the powerplay. If one wonders why Swedish U-18 coaches have stopped using him on the first powerplay in the past two tournaments…you have your answer, because he’s not creating offence with either his shot or his passes. Yesterday in one 40-second sequence versus Belarus Liljegren attempted six shots on goal, four which were blocked and two that were at least a foot wide. He has been one of the most frequent shooters in the tournament so far with 16 SOG, but that’s because he is ALWAYS looking to shoot even though his shot is often far from dangerous. I have no doubt that he leads all players in attempted shots in this tournament, almost all of them wrist shots from the blueline.

 

Another concern is when he has the puck in the defensive zone he invariably does one of two things..tries to carry it out of the zone or tries to make a two-line stretch pass. It is exceedingly rare to see Liljegren attempt a ten- or 20-foot pass or a dish laterally to his defence partner…and if you think he might ever consider reversing the puck or passing it backwards, you can forget it…his passes are going forward…and so are his rushes. One wonders if he needs to pull an Al Arbor and play with spectacles on….or at the very least convex mirrors on his faceshield, as it sure seems like he lacks peripheral vision.

 

He’s a half decent one-one-one defender thanks to a quick stick and excellent mobility..but when the puck starts getting passed around in his defensive zone he can get out of position and leave opponents open…once again because of his lack of vision and hockey sense. He is not being used by the Swedes on the penalty kill…and for a player who many still project to go in the top ten..if he’s not good/smart enough to play on the first PP or PK against fellow 16, 17 and 18-year-olds, what makes one think he’ll be able to do it at the NHL level? It’s no easy task teaching smarts and vision…they are pretty innate.

 

He’s not a big defender, so you aren’t looking at a player who is going to be a defensive bruiser that clears the front of the net and intimidates opponents. He competes okay, and he should become a reasonable defender one day if he can figure out how to read plays, cover the right opponent, and see the whole ice surface. A whole lot of maybes.

 

So it begs the question…just what will he be at the NHL level? If he doesn’t have the sense/vision//creativity/shot to be a ten-goal scorer or 45-point defenceman, and has enough question marks and lack of size to be a stalwart defender…you likely have a mobile puckhandler who at best might be a number three or four defenceman. That’s not top-ten material, and if you are worried about the mistakes, questionable passing and turnovers…may well not be enough to be a top-15 or even top-20 selection.

 

Liljegren still has a few games to make me change my mind in his upside, but he is quickly running out of time. I’d like nothing more than there to be another candidate for my final top-ten rankings…but after 20 or so disappointing viewings since the summer I’m not holding my breath.

 

https://draftineurope.blogspot.ca/2017/02/liljegren-breakdown-part-i.html

Quote

So far, it has been a complicated season for 2017 NHL Draft eligible defenseman Timothy Liljegren. He has appeared at three different levels of hockey: mostly in SHL with Rogle BK, but he has also seen time in Allsvenskan on a short loan to Timra and has (at the time of writing) logged 12 games at the J20 level again with Rogle. He has also been a regular for Sweden's U18 team internationally and has dealt with a case of mononucleosis earlier in the season that sidelined him for some time. Safe to say, he has seen a bit of everything in his draft eligible season.

 

We received some heat for placing Liljegren as the third best 2017 NHL Draft eligible prospect coming out of Europe (behind Nico Hischier and Elias Pettersson respectively) back in September and more recently still receive questions about his "stock" as a draft eligible prospect. That has prompted us to offer an extensive breakdown that should illuminate how we see Timothy Liljegren's game.

 

DECISION-MAKING

 

We will start this breakdown with what we feel is the biggest question-mark in Liljegren's game and also one of the main reasons for why we dropped him all the way back in September. His biggest flaw this season has been decision-making. With that said, let us continue with visual examples and their analysis.
 

EXAMPLE 1

 

This sequence starts with Liljegren actually doing a good job evading the forecheck, as he turns and loses the Canadian forward he is left with quite some time to make a decision on how to move the puck forward. In frame III, it becomes fairly obvious that the right option to take is to pass along the green arrow, that said there is still a less than ideal orange path to take which would serve more just as an outlet to get rid of the puck not necessarily move the play forward in a productive way. Seeing as Liljegren isn't under pressure, it's not a particularly good option in this scenario. While Liljegren does not pass immediately, he still has ample amount of time to execute the green option pass in frames IV and V. Yet, Liljegren fails to do so and eventually loses the puck to the forechecker. In this sequence, we see something that has been fairly common in our viewings this season and that is the failure to make decisions that use obvious positive passing lanes (and simple quality options in general).
 

 

 

 

 

EXAMPLE 2

 

In example 2 we see something similar, though not quite the same (or as clearly erroneous as in the first example). This sequence shows off Liljegren's propensity to overhandle and overcomplicate things beyond what would make sense. Liljegren does not use his first option in the first two frames and instead opts to use his skating to turn with the puck. Up to this point nothing is wrong per-se. However, even as he turns he fails to complete a controlled pass in time to either of his options, only managing to dish the puck by the time his teammate is running out of room into the opposition's defensive pair on the offensive blueline. Again, Liljegren in our viewings this season has been guilty of at times picking options that are not only harder to execute but also carry less benefit than easier/more obvious options.
 

 

 

EXAMPLE 3

 

In example 3, we have a fairly obvious mistake within the same scope of decision-making issues that we've seen so far. Liljegren here misjudges his ability to outskate/outmuscle the Canadian forechecker while ignoring both the reverse pass as well as the forward option towards his linemate that is gliding backwards to get into the relevant position.

 

 

 

EXAMPLE 4

 

Example 4 is simply a highly risky play as Liljegren attempts to cut and avoid the forechecker getting hit in the process and has the puck trickle towards the blueline uncontrolled. While executing the pass to the open teammate in frame II could have been difficult, considering his teammate has barely turned by the time the forechecker is already extending himself to cover that lane, one could also argue it is something you'd want a projected top 5 pick be able to do. Even that aside, what Liljegren opted to do is a very high risk play that close to his net and illuminates another aspect of his game that we've seen, which is his willingness to at times gamble on plays that aren't worthy of gambling on.

 

 

 

 

EXAMPLE 5

 

This risk-management aspect becomes very obvious in example 5 where Liljegren simply commits an awful turnover resulting in a goal against. In frame I, he should have seen the two options of either passing/dumping the puck along the orange line out of immediate danger, or skating it back to buy some extra time to see whether the situation improves (considering the opposition is changing, that would likely be the case). Instead he tries to outmaneuver the opposition as a last man back with a move that has little chance of working. In frame II he actually has one last chance to avoid taking that useless risk with an easy drop pass, but probably doesn't realize his teammate is free behind him as the opponent forward went for a change. In the end, he loses the puck in the process and the opposition scores.
 

 

 

EXAMPLE 6

 

Example 6 is yet another sequence from the same root of questionable decisions. The puck is dumped back on the boards towards Liljegren, it's a fairly soft dump so Liljegren has plenty of time to decide what to do with it. He could have skate towards the puck and moved it up to his teammate who is presenting his open blade ready to receive a pass, or (if the forechecker below him opts to take a more direct straight route upwards towards Liljegren and the open teammate instead of approaching from under an angle on the boards) opted to move it back down behind the net to the other side of the ice. Instead, Liljegren waits for the puck to come to him and hopes he can fake his way out of pressure. With this, the forechecker has plenty of time to close the gap on Liljegren and strips him of the puck when the puck finally gets to that area.

 

 

 

EXAMPLE 7

 

 

Example 7 is another quite obvious sequence where Liljegren takes on unnecessary risk and fails to utilize easier and better options. In this case he has ample time and not one but two open linemates in good position with speed to hit them with a pass, but instead opts for a complicated diagonal stretch pass through three Czech players hoping to hit a teammate on the offensive blueline that is already covered by a Czech defenseman to boot. Even if he managed to complete that pass, his team would have been in a worse position than had he opted to pass to either of his teammates in front of him. So, not only is the risk significantly higher, the reward is lower as well.
 

Canucksarmy did an interview with Cam Robinson of Dobber Prospects and he also questions Liljegren's decision-making abilities (starts at 37:37). 

 

[Jiggs50]

4 hours ago, drummerboy said:

It seems like most people forgot that Liljegrin was in the top 2 before he got sick.  

In his limited season, he still showed why he was rated up there.  

He is easily still the best dman in the draft. 

Have u watched him enough to really believe that? Makar and Heiskanen are both better than Lolgren. 

[GreyHatnDart]

3 hours ago, HKSR said:

Nashville did fine building their team this way... from the goalie out.  If our top prospects pan out, we'd have Demko in net, and Juolevi, Liljegren/Heiskanen/etc, Stecher, and Hutton rounding out the Top 4.  That's a solid core to work with.  Then if/when other defencemen come along, we trade one of our D for the forward(s) we need (a la Jones for Johansen)

Agreed. And while goal scoring is clearly an issue with this team, it seems to be far easier (and cheaper) to acquire goal scoring through free agency than equivalent defenceman. 

 

I love the idea of building from the backend out. Not only does this strengthen our core, it also gives us ample leverage for trades. 

 

I am hoping Benning trades down for Foote + a good prospect. Barring that, as others have said, next years draft looks like it'll have some excellent top pairing potential dmen available. Assuming we don't move a whole lot in the standings from this year, we should have a good chance at nailing down another good dman in next years draft. 

[GreyHatnDart]

2 hours ago, DeNiro said:

I think Liljegren is definitely on their short list from the sounds of it.

 

If I had to guess I would say their first choice is one the top centers (possibly Vilardi). If he's not available I could see them going for Liljegren, who is most likely the powerplay QB that JB has alluded to in his interviews.

That's what I took from his quotes as well. 

 

It'll be an interesting draft for sure.  Last years shocker of PLD being snatched from us will be alleviated by someone jumping on a dman earlier than expected this time around. I'm guessing we end up with one of Vilardi, Glass or Middlestadt. 

[thrago]

I'm really hoping we draft Liljegren. Normally I'm against drafting defenseman in the first round but I really think he can make an impact on our team. Besides I don't think any of the available forwards will make a big impact for us.

[Roger Neilsons Towel]

7 hours ago, Ichiban604 said:

Most experts and fans alike are anticapting the Canucks drafting a C in the upcoming draft ; however, it is reasonable to think the Canucks might pick another Dman, if their top rated C is off the board when they are picking. Benning stated, his looking for a top line C or a first pairing Dman.

 

If the Canucks were to take a Dman at 5, which one?

 

2 Fins, Juolevi and Heiskanen for the next 10-15 years?top pairing?

This thread is redundant to this existing thread (which includes dmen as well as forwards) which is featured on the main page. 

 

[Roger Neilsons Towel]