Do you believe the Canucks can ever become a dynasty?

[6string]

In the cap era the word dynasty is in the process of a new definition, many were calling the Chicago Black Hawks recent run a dynasty lol.

 

The Canucks under Gillis should of made two trips to the finals, but Mike was way in over his egotistic head. That team should have came away with one Stanley Cup!

[canucksnihilist]

Does the team have the stomach to pay the price somehow in order for serious long term gain?   In a planned way?  Or are they trying to sell tickets?

 

id rather have a team that is in Vancouver but never wins to a team that leaves the city.  It is a special ownership that can give up profits to win.  I doubt we will get that here in Vancouver, too high profile, too much money....

 

or or more succinctly:  only by accident

[YummyCakeFace]

As long as Bettdouche is in charge with his corrupt Daly machine.....no way. They can be as good as the best team ever assembled but when it comes to crunch time, the rules will change.  It's bad business to have a Canadian team win the cup. Why do people still think this whole thing is a level playing field?

[The Lock]

1 hour ago, fanfor42 said:

Thank you for engaging the question.  So far less than 5 percent of Canuck fans have responded that they think there is a chance of becoming a dynasty. Your response is appreciated. 

Well I'm going to go out on a limb and say that to say it's impossible, it would be just someone venting their frustrations anyway. Kind of sad given how many people on here seem to have no faith in it actually happening. However, no one can predict the future.

 

It's unlikely to happen, but it's definitely possible.

[Ghostsof1915]

Baby steps, let's get the team to competitive shall we?

[CaptKirk888]

Do I wish, yes. Will it happen, not likely. As other posters have expressed, not in a cap era, depends on management, luck in drafting etc.

I think that the fans have no affect on the likely hood of a dynasty. It is all on the management team, owners and luck. (see above).

I also think the disposition of fans of any particular team are NOT going to dissuade potential manager hires from joining a team. If anything, it will motivate them to build a winning team (perhaps even a dynasty) in spite of poisonous fans or media.

I also think that team management like cares very little of the local media's opinion. On the other hand they definitely care about the fans opinion, as they are the ones who provide the capital that pays management! Beyond their own personal satisfaction of the building of a dynasty, hockey is a business, and thus about making money.

 

Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the poster and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other poster or the Vancouver Canucks. Examples of analysis performed within this post are only examples. They should not be utilized in real-world analytic products as they are based only on very limited and dated knowledge of the poster. Assumptions made within the analysis are not necessarily reflective of the position of any other poster or the Vancouver Canucks.

Warning: The reading of this post may cause side effects such as, and not limited to: migraine headache, blurred vision or loss of sight, severe nausea, acid reflux, dizziness, vomiting or hysterical laughing. Please do not drive or operate heavy machinery after reading this post.

 

CaptK. 

[Lancaster]

Vancouver is an event town.  It's like a fact. 

 

With the exception of Ottawa as well, all other Canadian cities has their arenas full, regardless of team success.  Every single time when the Canucks struggle, the arenas are visibly empty.  It's nothing new.... the Keenan/Messier era, the mid-80..... I think Larschied said a gun could go off and not hit anyone. 

The population of the GVRD has doubled in like a last decade, yet filling up the rink is an issue (although pricing could be to blame).  But it's not just the Canucks.... the BC Lions are having trouble at the gates; Whitecaps have good crowds, but lots of empty seats around the stadium; the Giants had pretty good crowd when they were competing for the Memorial Cup, but bare for the past many years.... not sure how's the crowd since they moved to the LAC; Vancouver Canadians..... probably the only one to really exceed any expectations, but they're Single A. 

Lots of bandwagoners in general.  I mean, I didn't hear much about Seahawks fan in Vancouver until went to the Super Bowl in 05... then nothing..... and then you see a large amount of people coming out of the woodworks claiming to be "Seahawks" fans when they finally won the Super Bowl. 

 

As for whether the Canucks will ever be a dynasty?  Impossible this day and age due to the salary cap.  To be competitive for many years.... depends on ownership. 

[BCNeil]

Nope, the Canucks will most likely never be a dynasty team.  I doubt there will ever be another dynasty team in hockey.

Montreal, NYI, and the Oilers are the only real dynasties.  Not only did these 3 teams have great success in the playoffs, they were also great regular season teams too.  They weren't sneaking into the playoffs and getting hot.  Some of those years in the 80s the Oilers would win the division by almost 40 points.  With a team full of all-stars and eventual hall of famers.  

 

There isn't any realistic way to build a team that strong again.....nevermind keep it together under the cap.

[IBatch]

I grew up with the dynastic Montreal, then Islander, then Oiler teams and each had some otherworldy element to them that made the rest of the league pale in comparison.   Montreal was the best team ever, especially when used as the rest of the teams as a yardstick.  Best goal differentials, best player in the world at each position, best regular season record etc.  NYI won a record 19 consecutive playoff rounds...wow.  Oilers murderers row of offensive players that won five in seven years, and another in 94 wearing a different uniform.  

 

Is CHI a dynasty?  Getting turfed in the first round sure isn't acting like one, considering the same core is in their prime ( with the exception of Keith but he's a robot so maybe even him) with good supporting players in place...

Under the salary cap, and adding ten new teams to the league makes me think dynasty's in general are a thing of the past.  If PIT wins two more they will prove me wrong, but they would have to win them this year and next for it to count.

 

At this point I would be over the moon if we won one cup.  The flip side of the parity in the league now is ANY good team has a chance once they get in, as two of the final four this year are proving.  At some point this team will be back at or near on top again, maybe by the mid 2020's, and we will get our chances.  32 teams likely in the league by then, which means once every three decades or so each team has a turn at their odds to win ( that's depressing, no more expansion please!) Dynasties by any team is going to need a new definition ( unless three of in six years works for you), the Canucks have just a good a chance as anyone else doing that I suppose, just as long as they win before they put dirt on me.

[BowtieCanuck]

Dynasties are built of all the right elements coming together at once, combined with dumb luck. Every team in the league has the possibility of becoming one, but the probability of it is not likely for most. The Canucks, as much as it pains me to say it, likely won't be one.

[BowtieCanuck]

5 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I grew up with the dynastic Montreal, then Islander, then Oiler teams and each had some otherworldy element to them that made the rest of the league pale in comparison.   Montreal was the best team ever, especially when used as the rest of the teams as a yardstick.  Best goal differentials, best player in the world at each position, best regular season record etc.  NYI won a record 19 consecutive playoff rounds...wow.  Oilers murderers row of offensive players that won five in seven years, and another in 94 wearing a different uniform.  

 

Is CHI a dynasty?  Getting turfed in the first round sure isn't acting like one, considering the same core is in their prime ( with the exception of Keith but he's a robot so maybe even him) with good supporting players in place...

Under the salary cap, and adding ten new teams to the league makes me think dynasty's in general are a thing of the past.  If PIT wins two more they will prove me wrong, but they would have to win them this year and next for it to count.

 

At this point I would be over the moon if we won one cup.  The flip side of the parity in the league now is ANY good team has a chance once they get in, as two of the final four this year are proving.  At some point this team will be back at or near on top again, maybe by the mid 2020's, and we will get our chances.  32 teams likely in the league by then, which means once every three decades or so each team has a turn at their odds to win ( that's depressing, no more expansion please!) Dynasties by any team is going to need a new definition ( unless three of in six years works for you), the Canucks have just a good a chance as anyone else doing that I suppose, just as long as they win before they put dirt on me.

Even the teams you mentioned at one time or another were swept or beat in a divisional series before, even during their peak years.

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, YummyCakeFace said:

As long as Bettdouche is in charge with his corrupt Daly machine.....no way. They can be as good as the best team ever assembled but when it comes to crunch time, the rules will change.  It's bad business to have a Canadian team win the cup. Why do people still think this whole thing is a level playing field?

You had me until the level playing field thing.  The Cap era helps Canadian teams too, because fighting the Almighty US dollar means evening out profits keeps our teams here. Just ask orignal fans of ARI and COL if they would have liked the cap era back when their teams were hemorrhaging money and we're forced to re-locate.  Heck we might be thankful for that ourselves in a couple years if the team keeps lowering ticket prices to keep fans watching a losing product.  TO and maybe  MTL are the only cities immune to dollar fluctuations and weak teams.  I still don't like Bettman though, his most recent craptastic decisions been the draft and Olympics.

[IBatch]

18 minutes ago, BowtieCanuck said:

Even the teams you mentioned at one time or another were swept or beat in a divisional series before, even during their peak years.

Only EDM was, losing game seven to another top team CAL right in the middle of their dynasty.

 

Edit.  Unless you are referring to CHI, who I'm not on board with been called a dynasty, but accept it for what it is, very near impossible to win more than two in a row anymore.

[IBatch]

21 minutes ago, BowtieCanuck said:

Dynasties are built of all the right elements coming together at once, combined with dumb luck. Every team in the league has the possibility of becoming one, but the probability of it is not likely for most. The Canucks, as much as it pains me to say it, likely won't be one.

Built primarily through the draft, and sound trading and use of prospects (Dryden for example, was traded from Boston for three prospects that never played a game in BB the NHL and went on to rob them of their own dynasty in the early seventies).  Lafluer, Robinson, Gainey, Cournoyer etc all drafted.  Potvin, Bossy, Trottier and others drafted.  Messier (best second rounder ever, maybe that s the dumb luck your referring too), Kurri, Fuhr, Anderson drafted and Gretzky was signed in the WHA the year before they entered the NHL.    Drafting by far has the biggest impact, although trading is important too, adding Goring was the final piece for NYI.  MTL it was Dryden, a trade made before the dynasty started, and drafting, EDM all drafting plus trading for the Rat.

[BowtieCanuck]

18 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Built primarily through the draft, and sound trading and use of prospects (Dryden for example, was traded from Boston for three prospects that never played a game in BB the NHL and went on to rob them of their own dynasty in the early seventies).  Lafluer, Robinson, Gainey, Cournoyer etc all drafted.  Potvin, Bossy, Trottier and others drafted.  Messier (best second rounder ever, maybe that s the dumb luck your referring too), Kurri, Fuhr, Anderson drafted and Gretzky was signed in the WHA the year before they entered the NHL.    Drafting by far has the biggest impact, although trading is important too, adding Goring was the final piece for NYI.  MTL it was Dryden, a trade made before the dynasty started, and drafting, EDM all drafting plus trading for the Rat.

You focus so much on the drafting and forgot to mention the coaching. Without Toe Blake, Al Arbour and Scotty Bowman those dynasties may have just been contending teams. Dynasties are more than just one element, they are all the stars lining up and working out. If dynasties were that simple, the league would be MUCH MORE in parity.

[Johnny Shotgun]

As has been said by others a dynasty in the cap era of the league is highly improbable.  I've followed this team since 1970 through all the ups and downs and no they will never be a dynasty.  Like others I will be fortunate to even see them win one cup.  Hate to admit it but the odds are not impossible but small.  Still it's sports and anything is possible that's why all fans support their chosen club hoping for that championship run.  In every sport.  In the Bettman era with NBC behind the scene pulling strings certain markets/regions are given some advantages to win in order to promote the game and create fan interest.  Hoping to build to a strong market for hockey throughout the entire US not just a belt along the northern states.  They want a broad fan base nationwide like the NFL, MLB, and NBA enjoys.  Canada is taken for granted we'll watch hockey no matter what and they love that massive revenue the 7 Canadian clubs generate for the league. Without it there would be no NHL.  I'm glad to see Ottawa making their presence felt for a cup but be realistic the Stanley Cup has never come north since Bettman surfaced.  It will be interesting to see what will happens in the Vegas market in the next few years.  The league is desperate to create a market there as the NFL is coming shortly and the NBA will be soon to follow.  It will be fun to follow.  My bet is Vegas wins a cup in 5 years. Hope I'm wrong.

 

[Johnny Shotgun]

34 minutes ago, BowtieCanuck said:

You focus so much on the drafting and forgot to mention the coaching. Without Toe Blake, Al Arbour and Scotty Bowman those dynasties may have just been contending teams. Dynasties are more than just one element, they are all the stars lining up and working out. If dynasties were that simple, the league would be MUCH MORE in parity.

Agreed. However don't forget Sammy Pollock GM of the Canadiens who feasted on the expansion clubs for years helping to create the Montreal dynasty.  With a wealth of talent at his disposal he traded widely for first round picks giving up decent players for gems like Lafleur.  St.Louis when they entered the league resembled a Montreal farm team with players and management they could afford to let go or "loan" to the Blues.  It was an instant success as well they were the powerhouse for the first expansion wave. Those clubs playing in a division apart from the original 6 sent the Blues to the finals for the first few years only to be swept by teams like Montreal. I recall Scotty Bowman honing his coaching skills there when he couldn't catch on in Montreal as a rising star in their farm system as a coach. Only to return to the fold in a few years when he had proven himself.

[Alflives]

8 hours ago, CaptKirk888 said:

Do I wish, yes. Will it happen, not likely. As other posters have expressed, not in a cap era, depends on management, luck in drafting etc.

I think that the fans have no affect on the likely hood of a dynasty. It is all on the management team, owners and luck. (see above).

I also think the disposition of fans of any particular team are NOT going to dissuade potential manager hires from joining a team. If anything, it will motivate them to build a winning team (perhaps even a dynasty) in spite of poisonous fans or media.

I also think that team management like cares very little of the local media's opinion. On the other hand they definitely care about the fans opinion, as they are the ones who provide the capital that pays management! Beyond their own personal satisfaction of the building of a dynasty, hockey is a business, and thus about making money.

 

Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the poster and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other poster or the Vancouver Canucks. Examples of analysis performed within this post are only examples. They should not be utilized in real-world analytic products as they are based only on very limited and dated knowledge of the poster. Assumptions made within the analysis are not necessarily reflective of the position of any other poster or the Vancouver Canucks.

Warning: The reading of this post may cause side effects such as, and not limited to: migraine headache, blurred vision or loss of sight, severe nausea, acid reflux, dizziness, vomiting or hysterical laughing. Please do not drive or operate heavy machinery after reading this post.

 

CaptK. 

Loved this post...threw up after, and still have the sweats...but the read was worth it.  

[Nancouver]

10 hours ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

Look, people asked the same thing about the Blue Jays before they committed to actually winning. Once they went all in, they won not once but twice. 

 

When the organization finally goes all in, we'll get there. They don't want to be a dynasty, therefore ...

What does " going all in" mean?, tanking? They can't spend more than other teams due to the cap. Did they go "all in" in 2011?

[TheGuardian_]

13 hours ago, fanfor42 said:

Vancouver has been in the NHL since 1970. No dynasty so far. In fact, no cup so far. So what's the deal? Is there some reason why other cities can create teams that become dynasties in the NHL but Vancouver cannot?  Are we inferior? Do we lack the ability to attract top end management talent? Are our media so poisonous that no team can gain traction?

Never say never, but a dynasty is not a good business plan for Bettman's NHL.

 

I have my theory of why no cup though, travel in the playoffs and a lack of understanding by coaching and management.

Most coaches that come here are from back east where teams can play away games and still sleep in their own beds whereas the Nucks are in airplanes.

Gillis and Torts started thinking more out of the box in his tenure here but for some reason just about every coach/gm of the team haven't taken into account what happens when flying. Torts stopped having practices if there was not enough time off.

 

Often during the regular season during a compact stretch of games the back up goalie gets a game or two, especially in back to backs to keep the starter fresh and that is in a more relaxed or time off type of schedule but come the playoffs where the game's intensity and value gets ramped up this thinking/reasoning goes out the window and the starter goes game after game, sometimes coaches will "ask" if the competitive NHL goalie will be good or wants to play, dumb coach, what answer does he expect?

 

So let me explain my theory a bit.

 

Playoffs start, the ambient outside temperature increases, sometimes dramatically.

 

Goalies dress in a total body wrap and play a full 60 minutes

 

Depending upon the size and leanest of the goalie he could lose 10 to 12 lbs or up to 10% of his body weight through perspiration per game.

 

Then he gets on an airplane pressurized at 8,000 feet with de-humidified air, two things happen at altitude the body swells and loses more fluid or doesn't retain/regain as much and the dry air sucks more fluid out of the body. Air travelers know about dry mouth and nasal cavities.

 

The goalie doesn't recover as much lost body fluid and is right back into the next game. This continues and eventually he starts to have symptoms of dehydration, two of which are reduced mental and physical functions, ergo reaction time and poor decisions.

 

While the "skaters" will often say how grueling and how tired they are getting nobody is looking to the goalies.

Now size matters, large lean goalies will not recover as fast as smaller goalies, both will suffer the same effects but smaller body mass can recover quicker than large leaner ones.

 

Two results of this simplified theory of mine are no cups even though a couple of Canuck teams could/should have won just because they were more skilled.

AND

Why Vancouver got the reputation as a goalie graveyard. Goalies that have played here aren't bad but when here their game breaks down.

 

I came up with this theory when scuba diving in Hawaii and they told me about not diving 24 hours before flying due to getting the bends in an airplane and then when I did a study. This was decades ago.

 

The more air travel the more the entire team deteriorates but the goalies have it the worst, Vancouver needs to use a two goalie system in an extended playoff run. IMHO the team should also leave some "black aces" in one city to play in the following game.

 

Sorry about going a little off topic.