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Ben Hutton: Do We Really Need Him?


Horvats_Big_Head

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On 5/27/2017 at 5:56 AM, Alflives said:

It depends on the return, doesn't it?  Would you trade Hutton straight up for Drouin or Reinhart?  

 

On 5/27/2017 at 6:25 AM, Rocksterh8 said:

Every player is avail on the Canucks depending on the return. (exception Sedins)

Yes, @Alflives and @Rocksterh8 are of course correct that it depends on the return. However, in today's NHL it is rare to see one-sided deals given the high level of scouting and information flow. No one is going to "blow Benning's socks off" to acquire Hutton. So the real question is, given the Canuck's needs, the current market for players in the NHL and our projections for how Hutton might develop, do we believe that a helpful trade can be made.

 

My guess is "no". We all know that legit top 4 defencemen with size and offensive talent are worth a lot. Hutton is not there yet. On the other hand, there are lots of decent bottom pairing D's floating around who can be picked up at relatively low cost, so I don't think he would attract a lot in trade right now. And I think the Canucks have a higher than average need for a young player of Hutton's type. They need his size, they need his offensive upside and, frankly, they need his upbeat personality.

 

After an impressive rookie campaign he had a disappointing sophomore season. Personally, I think he will bounce back to positive trend improvement next year, especially if he is paired with Tanev instead of Gubdranson. I don't think the Canucks could capture that value in trade right now, and he is on a reasonable contract.

 

Also, while people are hoping that Juolevi and Brisebois and McEneny and Pedan and now Holm develop into good NHL D's, there is no guarantee than any of them will. Hutton is well ahead of all of those guys right now. Maybe some of them close the gap or even overtake Hutton. But it would a bad idea to assume that is going to happen. 

 

So I do not think it makes sense to shop Hutton at present.

 

On 5/27/2017 at 7:29 AM, drummerboy said:

He is a great guy.  Sure. 

He is an alright young dman. Yup.  

I agree with a lot.  

But hoping we lose Sbisa is just stupid. 

Sbisa has been one of our better Dmen for the last 1.5-2 seasons now. 

 

Saying you 'hate Elder with a passion' is stupid as well.   

The guy take a lot of unwarranted hate from a handful of morons here.  

Use him properly, and you would love him.  Aka  team Sweden. 

 

Also, if Hutton is the second best thing gillis did in your mind, you must not remember those presidents trophies or Stanley cup finals. 

 

I am all for keeping one Hutton and trading one of Edler or Tanev, but whyyou always have to ruin your posts with a handful of pooh comments? 

You always make clicking that minus button so easy. 

I was surprised to see the statement that Sbisa has been one of our better Dmen for the last 1.5-2 seasons. Of course it depends on what "one of the better" means. Some people (and dictionaries) take it to mean "in the top half'. Others use it to mean one of a small group at the top -- maybe the top 2 or 3 out of 9 or 10.

 

Either way, I am not sure Sbisa qualifies. In the past two years there have been 9 Dmen who have played 50 or more games. Sbisa ranks 7th in PPG out of 9 and 7th in TOI per game out of 9 (so the coaches did not think he was that good either). His plus minus is good, but that depends so much on matchups for Dmen that I would be inclined not to put much weight on it. Good Dmen on bad teams usually have poor plus/minus numbers and, on bad teams, weaker D's often have plus-minus numbers that look pretty good compared to other guys on the team (because they don't spend a lot of time playing against the other team's top forwards).

 

Hutton leads in PPG, by the way.

 

My personal ranking of those 9 Dmen is: Edler, Tanev, Hamhuis, Stecher, Tryamkin, Hutton, Sbisa, Beiga, Bartkowski.

 

So I don't see Sbisa in the top half although I admit that 4 through 7 are all pretty close. You could make a case for Sbisa as high as 5th, but I don't see how he gets in the top half and is certainly not in the top 2 or 3 in that group.

 

Possibly he makes the top half if we add in guys who played less. Weber played 45 games and Guddy played 30. Larsen played 26, but that does not seem like enough to enter the conversation. But Sbisa would not make my top half even if we counted all those guys.

 

As for "hoping he gets picked" in the expansion draft, I think the point is that the Canucks will lose someone and Sbisa has a high cap hit for what he does and is signed for only one more year anyway. If he is taken we don't lose that much. If we don't lose Sbisa, I think we are likely to lose Gaunce or Biega or maybe Dorsett (although his injury makes that less likely). Sbisa might be a better player than those guys but he takes up more cap room.

 

 

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6 hours ago, drummerboy said:

That is a wrong statement.  

It isn't working out for Subban because he is an awful defensman, not because he isn't a JB pick.   

He will get his chance when he learns to play the game.  

Lol, you called sbisa one of our best dmen, so I now know not to take your opinion about subban seriously because your talent evaluation is definitely way off since sbisa is straight up awful!  He's a borderline NHL player and I'm Praying vegas is dumb enough to take him off our hands!

 

I agree with this review of him.  He'd be a great 7th dman, but should never touch your top 4.

 

https://canucksarmy.com/2017/05/03/canucks-army-year-in-review-luca-sbisa-2/

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58 minutes ago, FireGillis said:

Lol, you called sbisa one of our best dmen, so I now know not to take your opinion about subban seriously because your talent evaluation is definitely way off since sbisa is straight up awful!  He's a borderline NHL player and I'm Praying vegas is dumb enough to take him off our hands!

 

I agree with this review of him.  He'd be a great 7th dman, but should never touch your top 4.

 

https://canucksarmy.com/2017/05/03/canucks-army-year-in-review-luca-sbisa-2/

I pointed out all his flaws on Subban, but I guess once he's proven wrong he suddenly can't find the time to respond. The guy constantly talks out of his ass, and thinks because someone is small they don;t deserve A shot and they can;t fight. IM paraphrasing but he said something along the lines that he wouldn;t fight someone 5,8 referring to Paul Byron. Because that would be like fighting A girl.I know plenty of guys 5,8 who could kick my ass. one word Stallone With some of his comments you would swear he still clubs his dinner and cooks it over A fire. I would love for him to approach Jordan in A dark ally. He may be short , but the guy is a beast.

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On 5/27/2017 at 0:28 AM, Horvats_Big_Head said:

The answer is yes.

 

I am simply appalled at all of the people who are saying we should trade Ben Hutton, all because we made some depth signing today. Yeah, maybe Mr. Conservative Benning is saying we are not going to trade Tanev or Edler now, but there is a long way to go until the draft. When we are rebuilding and trying to get younger, why on Earth would we trade one of our best young Dman? It is dumb on so many levels. 

 

Reasons to not trade Ben Hutton:

1. He is a beauty and fan favorite. Everybody loves the guy. He is the guy in the locker room that everybody likes because he is so goofy. He will keep some of the guys together. Anybody who has been on a hockey team knows that these goofballs are important.

2. He is YOUNG with an affordable cap hit. He is growing with this team, being best buds with Horvat, Baer, Virtanen etc. Second year in the NHL playing top 4 minutes. Sure, he had some hiccups this year but that is no reason to give up on someone. He has shown many times what he is capable of and everyone should like what they see. Fast, good with the puck, good first pass, nice shot. He is a new age offensive defenseman for sure. 

3. We don't have the left side depth to trade him. We currently have Edler, Hutton, Sbisa (Hopefully gone by expansion), Pedan, and this new guy Holm. I would argue that Hutton is the most valuable of all those defenseman. I hate Edler with a passion, Hutton is a smarter player.

4. He is a nice person. No character flaws ala Evander Kane or other POS. 

 

Ben Hutton is perhaps the best thing that Mike Gillis did for this team aside from Bo Horvat, and people are throwing him into trade talks without any second thought. We need Ben Hutton. We need his defense. We need his smile. If anyone is traded, it should be Edler or Tanev. 

 

 

Did Edler pee in your fruit loops? you tend to ramble a lot but you really don't have very many facts to back up your silly statements. Ya Edler sucks so bad last time I checked they did't make the olympic team and the worlds. Any player can be traded at any time if it makes the team better. Hutton won;t get traded because he really doesn't have much value right now.

 

If Holm and Olli both have great camps Hutton might find himself as the 7thd. Maybe instead of being A goofball He should learn how to play D on A regular basis I like him on the offensive side, but he is terrible on D. Sure hope he just had A one off last year

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2 hours ago, FireGillis said:

Lol, you called sbisa one of our best dmen, so I now know not to take your opinion about subban seriously because your talent evaluation is definitely way off since sbisa is straight up awful!  He's a borderline NHL player and I'm Praying vegas is dumb enough to take him off our hands!

 

I agree with this review of him.  He'd be a great 7th dman, but should never touch your top 4.

 

https://canucksarmy.com/2017/05/03/canucks-army-year-in-review-luca-sbisa-2/

Sorry guys, but Sbisa WAS one of our best dmen last year. He was consistent, healthy, amungst our top minute men, top +/- guy, most physical.....and there's nothong to get offended over. It was a BAD year for our defense. Injuries crippled us and Sbisa was one of the few pleasant surprises. Not nearly as many brutal giveaways as he's had in the past. He took a step forward in his development and proved to be a guy that could handle top 4 minnutes if needed. Nobody is saying he IS our best defenseman. But he quietly put together a pretty solid season last year. 

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48 minutes ago, bp79 said:

Did Edler pee in your fruit loops? you tend to ramble a lot but you really don't have very many facts to back up your silly statements. Ya Edler sucks so bad last time I checked they did't make the olympic team and the worlds. Any player can be traded at any time if it makes the team better. Hutton won;t get traded because he really doesn't have much value right now.

 

If Holm and Olli both have great camps Hutton might find himself as the 7thd. Maybe instead of being A goofball He should learn how to play D on A regular basis I like him on the offensive side, but he is terrible on D. Sure hope he just had A one off last year

I agree with your assessment that Hutton doesn't hold a ton of a value currently, but I saw his defensive play improve quite a bit towards the end of the season. Particularily his work/compete along the boards and ability to create a little bit of space so he could use his skating ability to come away with the puck.

 

This is a big year for Hutton. It will be interesting to see what kind of player we have in him. So it's probably a pretty bad time to trade him. If all goes well, his value could be quite a bit more in a years time. 

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17 minutes ago, VIC_CITY said:

I agree with your assessment that Hutton doesn't hold a ton of a value currently, but I saw his defensive play improve quite a bit towards the end of the season. Particularily his work/compete along the boards and ability to create a little bit of space so he could use his skating ability to come away with the puck.

 

This is a big year for Hutton. It will be interesting to see what kind of player we have in him. So it's probably a pretty bad time to trade him. If all goes well, his value could be quite a bit more in a years time. 

Good point. He did improve towards the end of the season. The only thing that scares me A little is as the pressure was off since we were playing meaningless games. I really hope I'm wrong cuz I was super impressed with him in his first year and thought he looked really good on the offensive end. 

 

I think I unfairly ranted on him because of A previous comment by drummer boy where he gushes over Hutton yet $&!#s on Subban. When it's clear they both need work on D yet DB thinks Subban hasn't earned A  Chance. I guess being one of the leading scorers on your team, and making the all-star team means nothing. Not to mention the strides he took last year on D.

 

At the very least he deserves A good look , At least 25-30 games and let our D coaches work with him. We need all the points we can get from the back end and we might have the answer just buried in the farm. Cheers

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This all comes down to the trade package scenario that @J.R. has been championing for some time now...

 

IF they feel that Hutton, especially with his added value as an ED exempt player, can be combined with another player from another area they feel they have relative depth at (read LW) to address an area of weakness (read C) then Its entirely possible he could get traded.

 

IF the expectation is that Edler is going to stay, for any number of possible reasons, then moving Hutton frees up minutes and opportunities on LD for other players that can help actualize their asset potential over the next two years. This means Juolevi, Pedan, Holm, McEneny etc. Hutton provides good transition, mobility, first pass, but the team may feel they can replace his production in aggregate over the long term by developing other players who can also support a roster thrust for two seasons from now. Simply letting Juolevi, for example, work out some kinks this year, and living with his mistakes, may aid him in being an equally productive LD in Hutton's first year of his new contract, for less money.

 

IF combined with Baer, who will need a new contract as will Hutton, and they think they can replace him with someone else already in the system or from a low risk UFA, then that may become an attractive enough package to acquire a highly coveted piece in a rebuild. The team also still has the option of replacing him with Rodin who may still be capable of 35 points, rather than losing him for nothing. 

 

The name of Sam Reinhart keeps coming up, for very good reason, and if that combo is enough to entice him out of Buffalo then moving Hutton makes sense at it fills the potential in the system for a 1C (RH no less) and allows the Canucks to focus again on taking a D in the 2017 Draft, if they feel he's the BPA, without being compromised on leaving the middle of the ice deficient. 

 

That combined move, Hutton and Baer, would also free up a contract spot to add another player to the Expansion Draft list at F, as Reinhart (or similar) is exempt, maybe Gaunce, and they can also add another player under the 50 contract limit (Raddysh?).

 

If the team is not challenging over the next two years anyway then getting the benefit of the cheap years of Baer and Hutton becomes moot. Their contract values may never be higher than now, and a trade partner may view their combined production vs $$$ being worth giving up a major piece in return.

 

The team would take a short term hit on puck transition from the backend but that could be able to be corrected later. Hutton is a nice piece but he's not explicitly needed to be a part of the future core. He might be...he might not.

 

Eriksson-Horvat-Boeser

Sedin-Sedin-Granlund

Rodin-Reinhart-Goldobin

Dorsett-Sutter-Virtanen/Gaunce

 

Edler-Stecher

Sbisa(or other)-Tanev 

Juolevi-Gudbranson

(Pedan, Holm, Biega, McEneny)

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Thanks for saving me a lot of writing @theminister :lol:

 

I like Hutton. I think he's a good, young, #4D with room to grow even better.

 

But where we are in a rebuild, with the depth (albeit largely unproven) we have on the left, with the needs we have to fill... I would not be surprised (or offended) to see him packaged for a C. 

 

Similar reason I wouldn't be put out if Tanev (or Baer) was moved. He's presently wasting his prime years on a team that won't like be competitive again until he's exiting them. While he certainly lends stability to the back end, which is of it's own value mid rebuild, it's also not necessarily the most efficient use of his value given where the organization is, to retain him. Other teams can and will pay dearly for those prime years.

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10 hours ago, bp79 said:

+First off his own coach praised him for his strides he has made.

He is not there to destroy the kids confidence.   He has said some nice things, yeah, but green was also very honest about the kids game saying he has ALOT of work to do before become an NHL player.   

Personally, in 2-3 years, I think the kid can make it, but in no way would I want him in my team right now. 

10 hours ago, bp79 said:

 

Second did he not make the all star team? pretty sure that is quite the improvement from last year would you not say.

 

Do your research on how you get to the AHL all star games.     It is a bunch of stat watchers.     

It is a big compliment to his offensive game absolutely. 

But that isn't what we are talking about. That part has never been in question. 

 

10 hours ago, bp79 said:

 

Weak that's so laughable guy is built like A horse. but based on other posts you have written you have A prejudice towards anyone, not 6 feet or taller.

A guy that is tiny, but built like a horse is still tiny compared to a 6'3" man who is also built like a horse.  

Personally, if I'm going into the board with a guy the size of Subban, strong or not, I'm going to have a much better chance to get the puck.  

You can see that every game he plays. He gets tossed around easily by the big guys.  

Is that someone you want fighting for the puck in your own end?

10 hours ago, bp79 said:

 

 

Am I wrong. (paul Byron) top[ic comes to mind.) Hot Dogger? why cuz he likes to celebrate when he scores?

It isn't about his cellys when he scores.  

I love that part about him.  The game is full of the most boring personalities and I would love to see some more flair from the players.  

The hot dogging comes from him on the ice, making very careless plays and sling around like he is playing the 'rover' position and the only thing he thinks about is scoring the big goal.  

He is a defenseman.  

10 hours ago, bp79 said:

 

What is this commy China 

You are such A typical caveman who is stuck in the 60's And all your facts are dead wrong. Both GMJB and Travis praised him on his continued improvement. 

I didn't say he didn't approve.   2 years in the league, you will improve.  

That doesn't mean his defensive game is even close to NHL ready and both JB and Green stated that numerous times.  

10 hours ago, bp79 said:

 

Please tell me how he hasn't earned A shot? led his team in scoring sticks up for his teammates and very seldom is he A liability.

He he hasn't earned his shot because he IS a liability.   You can disagree, but watching the game really does disagree with you, and so do his stats. 

 

10 hours ago, bp79 said:

You have admitted in the past you hate small players. So let's call A spade A spade you hate him because he isn't big. New's flash either is eks from nashville Barrie from col Krug from Boston etc 

Yes. I don't like small players.  Very true.  

I don't hate Subban tho.  Not at all.  

I actually really like him as a prospect and a person.    

I don't like his style of game.

 I like Dmen to play D.  That should be their #1 priority.  

He is an offensive player, and that is the big part of his game; but he is a dman and needs to be good at that before he gets to play against the pros. 

News flash! He isn't Krug or Barrie.  

Ellis is Nashville worked his way up, and developed his D game before making the team.  

What is wrong with that?

10 hours ago, bp79 said:

 

Put your hatred aside and see the player for what he is and what he could bring given the chance. You sound just like m,y Grandpa just not racist. 

 

why so butt hurt about someone wanting to properly develop players?

 

Just like so many young people these days, so freaking entitled to everything  without having to actually work for it. 

 

Is it really such a bad idea to let the kid learn his trade in the AHL and make sure he can handle the step up in competition before bringing him up?  

 

I see what he brings and i currently am not impressed.  

I am very excited to see what he becomes though.  

That kind of offensive talent can't be ignored, but for me, neither can poor defensive play. 

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7 hours ago, bp79 said:

I pointed out all his flaws on Subban, but I guess once he's proven wrong he suddenly can't find the time to respond. The guy constantly talks out of his ass, and thinks because someone is small they don;t deserve A shot and they can;t fight. IM paraphrasing but he said something along the lines that he wouldn;t fight someone 5,8 referring to Paul Byron

I have a feeling you are mixing me up with someone else.  I never said any of that.   Never referred to Byron.  Never once mentioned fighting.   Never once said someone small doesn't deserve a shot.  

It is about his dgame. Not his size.  

Being that small just doesn't hel his situation.  

 

Stop trying to put words in my mouth.  It makes you look like a goof.    I am very fair in my criticism toward Jordon.  

 

 

Also

I've been in the studio recording drums all night.  My apologies. my priority on a Saturday night wasn't debate hockey on the internet.  

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On ‎5‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 7:29 AM, drummerboy said:

He is a great guy.  Sure. 

He is an alright young dman. Yup.  

I agree with a lot.  

But hoping we lose Sbisa is just stupid. 

Sbisa has been one of our better Dmen for the last 1.5-2 seasons now. 

 

Saying you 'hate Elder with a passion' is stupid as well.   

The guy take a lot of unwarranted hate from a handful of morons here.  

Use him properly, and you would love him.  Aka  team Sweden. 

 

Also, if Hutton is the second best thing gillis did in your mind, you must not remember those presidents trophies or Stanley cup finals. 

 

I am all for keeping one Hutton and trading one of Edler or Tanev, but whyyou always have to ruin your posts with a handful of pooh comments? 

You always make clicking that minus button so easy. 

As usual you are bang on. While I consider any player tradable it is always what comes back and how they compliment the roster versus the player who leave. IMHO we do not know what Hutton's potential is after 2 seasons. I rather we be patient. Moving either Edler or Tanev is all about a return that can help the forward group score more goals. Again it is all about the return as both these players are quality defensemen. It is all about what benefits the team most.

 

I believe Benning is rebuilding to produce a CUP challenger not a mid stream NHL wannabe. Moving younger players cries of wannabe now rather than a June finalist.  

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6 hours ago, bp79 said:

Good point. He did improve towards the end of the season. The only thing that scares me A little is as the pressure was off since we were playing meaningless games. I really hope I'm wrong cuz I was super impressed with him in his first year and thought he looked really good on the offensive end. 

 

 

I think this is why it would be bad timing to trade Hutton at this point.  I'm not sure what you mean by the 'meaningless games'.  Many of those games were against teams that were trying to make the playoffs or to get higher in the standings.

 

He is only 2 seasons into the league and at 24yrs old, has room to develop.  He was very good in his first season, but dropped off in his sophomore year, perhaps due having to adjust to the extra weight he put on in the offseason.

 

If JB wants to move Hutton, I think it would be wiser to wait until later in the season as I doubt he has peaked as a player.  Let him go out there and show that he is a good middle pairing dman with an offensive flair, who is still improving.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Boudrias said:

I believe Benning is rebuilding to produce a CUP challenger not a mid stream NHL wannabe. Moving younger players cries of wannabe now rather than a June finalist.  

 

Does it though? Perhaps they don't see him as a long term fit what with Juolevi, McEneny, Brisebois, the likely eventual return of Tryamkin, Holm, Pedan etc as potential depth on that side.

 

Some of them and/or Hutton will not be here in 2+ years. That's just a fact. There just isn't room for all of them. If they have guys they prefer there long term and feel they can get value for him with the ED boosting his value and get key rebuild piece we need elsewhere...

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17 hours ago, drummerboy said:

That is a wrong statement.  

It isn't working out for Subban because he is an awful defensman, not because he isn't a JB pick.   

He will get his chance when he learns to play the game.  

This is probably true, but to not get at least a look at the end of last season with that line-up and lack of scoring... has to be more too it, who knows.

 

17 hours ago, Alflives said:

If I could add?  Bo was a Gillis pick, and JB is building around Bo.  

Bo is a beast. He gave management no choice but to build around him. I'm just saying with the exception of Bo and Gaunce (who could still be vegas bait), the team is pretty much Benning's team (signed,drafted,traded for). Hutton is the odd man out and wasn't really in their plans till he had a great camp two years ago.  Should be interesting to see what happens this summer.

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Hutton is a good player right now and is developing into a very good player as we speak. I think he will end up being not just a solid top 4, but a very good top 4 Dman.

 

I don't think he is one of the Dman they should be looking at trading. 

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What's the point of trading Hutton right now? Maybe Benning thinks his potential is low.  We're rebuilding, he's young, let's see what he can grow into. My predication is a third pairing guy but you never know, maybe he comes in next season and blows our minds. Our team can afford to have some patience.

 

 

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1 hour ago, J.R. said:

 

Does it though? Perhaps they don't see him as a long term fit what with Juolevi, McEneny, Brisebois, the likely eventual return of Tryamkin, Holm, Pedan etc as potential depth on that side.

 

Some of them and/or Hutton will not be here in 2+ years. That's just a fact. There just isn't room for all of them. If they have guys they prefer there long term and feel they can get value for him with the ED boosting his value and get key rebuild piece we need elsewhere...

Somewhere on here I said that any player is tradable. It is always about the return and how that player compliments the ultimate goal of a CUP. At least the Canucks now have some prospects to have that argument about who should go and who should stay. Do I like Hutton over your list? I have a better idea of what Hutton can do over the others but he is going into his 3rd pro season so I should. For me the story on Hutton has to develop more before I am anxious to move him. Your point about his value being greater now because of the ED is totally valid. In Benning we trust I guess. :) 

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25 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

Somewhere on here I said that any player is tradable. It is always about the return and how that player compliments the ultimate goal of a CUP. At least the Canucks now have some prospects to have that argument about who should go and who should stay. Do I like Hutton over your list? I have a better idea of what Hutton can do over the others but he is going into his 3rd pro season so I should. For me the story on Hutton has to develop more before I am anxious to move him. Your point about his value being greater now because of the ED is totally valid. In Benning we trust I guess. :) 

Yeah, I'm in no way saying we HAVE to move him. We don't. Not even that we should move him. We don't have to do that either. 

 

But if they have someone else in mind for that 2nd pair, left side, long term... Exploring his value ahead of the ED and seeing if we could get an equally valuable (if not more so) rebuild piece elsewhere in the lineup, is just smart and prudent. 

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4 hours ago, higgyfan said:

I think this is why it would be bad timing to trade Hutton at this point.  I'm not sure what you mean by the 'meaningless games'.  Many of those games were against teams that were trying to make the playoffs or to get higher in the standings.

 

He is only 2 seasons into the league and at 24yrs old, has room to develop.  He was very good in his first season, but dropped off in his sophomore year, perhaps due having to adjust to the extra weight he put on in the offseason.

 

If JB wants to move Hutton, I think it would be wiser to wait until later in the season as I doubt he has peaked as a player.  Let him go out there and show that he is a good middle pairing dman with an offensive flair, who is still improving.

 

 

I meant meaningless games for us. Ya I know we had chances to play spoiler, but from my own personal experience in Baseball, it was hard to get up for those game. Knowing it does nothing for you as far as the standings go.

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