ForsbergTheGreat Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 2 minutes ago, aGENT said: lol 'trolling' ok. Most teams aren't blessed with Crosby's etc. If that's your hope/expectation heading in to any draft, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. But carry on stomping your feet and pouting... I can’t tell if your just that clueless about the conversation you decided to jump into or if you finally realized it, but are into too deep so your just running with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 17 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: You’re the one that made the statement that you would like monahan their for hes world class. Just giving you a taste of your own medicine. What I said is no different that Hmm and there the types of players we were about. Absolute picks that will turn in world class. You know the point in the draft where picks tend to drop off from sure fire talents to just hopefuls. Seriously. You’re simply trolling to be annoying. You knew what the discussion was about but felt the need to throw in your snarky statement. Grow up. Geuss what there’s less than 800 people in the world that play in the nhl each year. By true definition any player to play a game in the NHL is world class. But we all knew what was being discussed in regards to draft position. I guess expect clueless JR. All I see is someone trying to conflate 2 different points and posting information to suit a narrative. Do odds of getting NHL players, particularly top 6F/top4 D decrease the further down the draft you get?...well duh. Can you get 'elite' top 6F/top4 D later in the draft than the top 3? Yes and pretty frequently. I mean the last couple years it's a bit soon to nail down with any certainly but I sure wouldn't be opposed to any of the following taken outside the top 3: 2017 - Makar (4th), Pettersson (5th), Glass (6th), Andersson (7th), Mittelstadt (8th), Vilardi (11th), Necas (12th), Suzuki (13th), Foote (14th) 2016 - Puljujarvi (4th), Juolevi (5th), Tkachuck (6th), Keller (7th), Sergachev (9th), Jost (10th), McAvoy (14th) 2015 - Marner (4th), Hanifin (5th), Provorov (7th), Werenski (8th), Rantanen (10th)...(I haven't been going past 15 but I mean come on... Barzal, Chabot, Boeser...) Need I continue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 14 minutes ago, aGENT said: Need I continue? Yep your going to have to because nothing you just posted has anything to do with what was being talked about. Ok I’ll break it down for you since you are acting rather lost, everything you just posted had nothing to do with what we being talked about. You are the one the inserted top 6/top 4d purely on your misunderstanding at the term “world class” that was being discussed. No one has denied that you can’t find a decent top 6F/top 4d outside the top 2. No ones denied that you can’t find elite talents outside the top 2. The conversation at hand was, at what pick does the drop in “absolute” world class, elite talent typically happen. A poster suggested 6th overall, I pointed out it would be after 2. In the top 2 you can typically expect an “elite” talent. Dahlin/Svech Matthews/Laine Mcdavid/Eichel Stamkos/ Doughty Hall/Seguin Ovi/Malkin Tavares/ Hedman It’s not guaranteed you might still get a year with RHN/Landeskog or Yak/Murray. But typically if you land in the top two you expect to get a “world class” franchise defining player because of how often it occurs (around 60%). Outside the top 2, specifically talking about the 3-6 range, it’s far less likely, yes they still can happen (Toews/Price) but it’s not an expectation, simply because of the rarity (around 10%). And then “you” enter the discussion….pretending that Monahan is on the same level of the players above clearly unaware of the topic being discussed. Is Monahan a good player? Sure he is, so is Andrew Ladd, same with Evander Kane, are they considered as “world class” franchise defining players on the same level as the players listed above? No they aren’t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R3aL Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 1 hour ago, Bure_Pavel said: I wouldnt read into it too much his rankings look really bad. He has Dobson at 24 and Bouchard at 26. Yea he has merkley super high as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 1 hour ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: You’re the one that made the statement that you would like monahan their for hes world class. Just giving you a taste of your own medicine. What I said is no different that Hmm and there the types of players we were about. Absolute picks that will turn in world class. You know the point in the draft where picks tend to drop off from sure fire talents to just hopefuls. Seriously. You’re simply trolling to be annoying. You knew what the discussion was about but felt the need to throw in your snarky statement. Grow up. Geuss what there’s less than 800 people in the world that play in the nhl each year. By true definition any player to play a game in the NHL is world class. But we all knew what was being discussed in regards to draft position. I guess expect clueless JR. Honestly, your need to constantly be right and straight refusal to see ANYONE else's point of view is OldNews annoying. Just once, instead of flaming out someone else's opinion try seeing it from their point of view. It won't kill you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isam Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 19 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Yep your going to have to because nothing you just posted has anything to do with what was being talked about. Ok I’ll break it down for you since you are acting rather lost, everything you just posted had nothing to do with what we being talked about. You are the one the inserted top 6/top 4d purely on your misunderstanding at the term “world class” that was being discussed. No one has denied that you can’t find a decent top 6F/top 4d outside the top 2. No ones denied that you can’t find elite talents outside the top 2. The conversation at hand was, at what pick does the drop in “absolute” world class, elite talent typically happen. A poster suggested 6th overall, I pointed out it would be after 2. In the top 2 you can typically expect an “elite” talent. Dahlin/Svech Matthews/Laine Mcdavid/Eichel Stamkos/ Doughty Hall/Seguin Ovi/Malkin Tavares/ Hedman It’s not guaranteed you might still get a year with RHN/Landeskog or Yak/Murray. But typically if you land in the top two you expect to get a “world class” franchise defining player because of how often it occurs (around 60%). Outside the top 2, specifically talking about the 3-6 range, it’s far less likely, yes they still can happen (Toews/Price) but it’s not an expectation, simply because of the rarity (around 10%). And then “you” enter the discussion….pretending that Monahan is on the same level of the players above clearly unaware of the topic being discussed. Is Monahan a good player? Sure he is, so is Andrew Ladd, same with Evander Kane, are they considered as “world class” franchise defining players on the same level as the players listed above? No they aren’t. If you're looking at generational talent like mcjesus then yes i can agree to an extent. But world class players can be found later in the draft if proper scouting and due diligence are done. Teams without the luxury of having the top two have to be able to identify these players. The other point i brought up is that with proper player development, you can get a world class player. I just used schieffle as an example because he wasnt a sure thing. The jets knew that and worked on his weaknesses and made him into a ppg plus player. Another player who had some warts to his game was karlsson. No one expected klingberg to a stud d. There are other examples too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 22 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Yep your going to have to because nothing you just posted has anything to do with what was being talked about. Ok I’ll break it down for you since you are acting rather lost, everything you just posted had nothing to do with what we being talked about. You are the one the inserted top 6/top 4d purely on your misunderstanding at the term “world class” that was being discussed. No one has denied that you can’t find a decent top 6F/top 4d outside the top 2. No ones denied that you can’t find elite talents outside the top 2. The conversation at hand was, at what pick does the drop in “absolute” world class, elite talent typically happen. A poster suggested 6th overall, I pointed out it would be after 2. In the top 2 you can typically expect an “elite” talent. Dahlin/Svech Matthews/Laine Mcdavid/Eichel Stamkos/ Doughty Hall/Seguin Ovi/Malkin Tavares/ Hedman It’s not guaranteed you might still get a year with RHN/Landeskog or Yak/Murray. But typically if you land in the top two you expect to get a “world class” franchise defining player because of how often it occurs (around 60%). Outside the top 2, specifically talking about the 3-6 range, it’s far less likely, yes they still can happen (Toews/Price) but it’s not an expectation, simply because of the rarity (around 10%). And then “you” enter the discussion….pretending that Monahan is on the same level of the players above clearly unaware of the topic being discussed. Is Monahan a good player? Sure he is, so is Andrew Ladd, same with Evander Kane, are they considered as “world class” franchise defining players on the same level as the players listed above? No they aren’t. As you yourself said less than 800 active NHL players at any one point in time. Anyone playing in the top 4 D or top 6 forwards on any team cuts that number in half essentially. Finding a first line player or top 2 D pairing who is not defined as "elite" like a Suter is still world class. Toews/Monahan/Bergeron are not superstar point getters but are still world class. You're moving the goal posts to suit your argument man and you need to stop We're not now nor possibly ever drafting top 2 again outside of the twins and Linden and Tallon (depending on this years lottery). World class franchise defining talents CAN be found outside of the top 2 and are with regularity. End of argument. If they weren't we wouldn't have endless conversations about how we missed Subban, Karlsson, Weber, Keith, etc etc etc Now can we get back to talking about prospects and not swinging our sticks around at the trough guys? Because I'd REALLY like to know if Tkachuk really is in fact playing center at times as his being listed as a C/LW is highly intriguing and might put him ahead of Zadina for me if we're outside of the top 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isam Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 3 minutes ago, Warhippy said: As you yourself said less than 800 active NHL players at any one point in time. Anyone playing in the top 4 D or top 6 forwards on any team cuts that number in half essentially. Finding a first line player or top 2 D pairing who is not defined as "elite" like a Suter is still world class. Toews/Monahan/Bergeron are not superstar point getters but are still world class. You're moving the goal posts to suit your argument man and you need to stop We're not now nor possibly ever drafting top 2 again outside of the twins and Linden and Tallon (depending on this years lottery). World class franchise defining talents CAN be found outside of the top 2 and are with regularity. End of argument. If they weren't we wouldn't have endless conversations about how we missed Subban, Karlsson, Weber, Keith, etc etc etc Now can we get back to talking about prospects and not swinging our sticks around at the trough guys? Because I'd REALLY like to know if Tkachuk really is in fact playing center at times as his being listed as a C/LW is highly intriguing and might put him ahead of Zadina for me if we're outside of the top 2 Mostly wing. He could do it but his skating is a work in progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 4 minutes ago, Isam said: Mostly wing. He could do it but his skating is a work in progress. His brother's skating was supposedly an issue too. Seems good enough though. Much like Burr's skating was a concern, but really didn't deter how good a player he was. I would go for Brady Tkatchuk, except he is a college kid, who might stay all four years to become a UFA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 5 minutes ago, Isam said: Mostly wing. He could do it but his skating is a work in progress. Thanks man, I've never seen him listed anywhere as a center but lately have been hearing he has or is playing center and left wing. I am not super worried about skating as it's something easily corrected. But Brady Tkachuk is already a beast on the wing and exactly the kind of kid I'd have loved to see as a pivot and with him just turning 18 he's still uber young. nearly ppg in his first year. I'm leaning more and more towards him as my wanted pick and seeing if he could become a full time center. He could easily top out at 6 foot 4 or taller and can see him playing above 220 pounds very easily. Him/Gaudette/Horvat and Petterson would be an absolutely monstrous 4 centers to have on the team in 5 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isam Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 4 minutes ago, Alflives said: His brother's skating was supposedly an issue too. Seems good enough though. Much like Burr's skating was a concern, but really didn't deter how good a player he was. I would go for Brady Tkatchuk, except he is a college kid, who might stay all four years to become a UFA. Like his iq though alf. He is way smarter then his bro plus he plays a hard style without being stupid like his bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 2 minutes ago, Isam said: Like his iq though alf. He is way smarter then his bro plus he plays a hard style without being stupid like his bro. Imagine the cries in Calgary if we take the better Tkachuk brother. It would certainly shut up a lot of people in the OJ V Tkachuk debate. Ya well..we passed on MK for Juolevi, our bad. So instead hey, here's a bigger better Tkachuk to make up for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 58 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Honestly, your need to constantly be right and straight refusal to see ANYONE else's point of view is OldNews annoying. Just once, instead of flaming out someone else's opinion try seeing it from their point of view. It won't kill you Well in order to take someone’s point of view they have to understand the purpose of the discussion. Joining in late, picking out a very small point and going off tangent does no good. He’s yet to prove a point of view on the topic of discussion. Which is where the drop off from finding absolute world class talent. I’m standing by my notion that is after the top 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 56 minutes ago, Isam said: If you're looking at generational talent like mcjesus then yes i can agree to an extent. But world class players can be found later in the draft if proper scouting and due diligence are done. Again it’s not about gen talent but elite franchise defining player. And it’s not about “potentially” lucking out and finding them. Everyone know gems sometimes happen. The conversation is about “expectations” on the draft pick. This isnt thst hard of a concept to grasp. I’m dumbfounded with how many people here are struggling. Keith is an elite talent drafted at 54th overall. Does that mean we can expect to land a kieth quality player is we draft 54th? No. Where as if you draft in the top two. Expections are you are getting a franchise type player. I’m glad you can cherry pick later gems. But no one expect those players to turn into the high talent. There’s a reason why they are called gems and ranked that low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 15 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Well in order to take someone’s point of view they have to understand the purpose of the discussion. Joining in late, picking out a very small point and going off tangent does no good. He’s yet to prove a point of view on the topic of discussion. Which is where the drop off from finding absolute world class talent. I’m standing by my notion that is after the top 2 I've been following along closely. But the matter still stands. You, much like OldNews NEED to be correct and refuse to concede your point or accept others points of views. This does not detract from the fact that you're a brilliant poster with a solid amount of insight, it just makes it impossibly hard to engage with you at times. That's all I am saying. We don't need to be swinging our sticks around here. Great talent can be found outside the top 2. And some times the top 2 are...Murray and Yakupov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 2 hours ago, Bure_Pavel said: I wouldnt read into it too much his rankings look really bad. He has Dobson at 24 and Bouchard at 26. 1 hour ago, R3aL said: Yea he has merkley super high as well Pronman always seems to have his outliers, and typically not by just a couple spots but quite a disparity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 54 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Imagine the cries in Calgary if we take the better Tkachuk brother. It would certainly shut up a lot of people in the OJ V Tkachuk debate. Ya well..we passed on MK for Juolevi, our bad. So instead hey, here's a bigger better Tkachuk to make up for it Actually, then we'd be hearing, "Imagine if we had BOTH brothers, playing together? #benningisstillanidiot" Juolevi over Tkachuk is essentially Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan -- an unforgivable sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Quote You're moving the goal posts to suit your argument man and you need to stop There’s no goal posts. Just of couple of people who need to argue over semantics on a something that has very little to do on the discussion of the topic. Which is where in the draft does getting an absolute (world class, elite talent, franchise player) level drop? Call monahan what ever floats your boat. Does the fact the he was picked 6th overall mean that if we draft 6th overall this year, we can expect a player as talented as monohan? No, ok good. You bring nothing to the discussion then. Peace out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 8 minutes ago, Warhippy said: I've been following along closely. But the matter still stands. You, much like OldNews NEED to be correct and refuse to concede your point or accept others points of views. This does not detract from the fact that you're a brilliant poster with a solid amount of insight, it just makes it impossibly hard to engage with you at times. That's all I am saying. We don't need to be swinging our sticks around here. Great talent can be found outside the top 2. And some times the top 2 are...Murray and Yakupov Have a beer on me. Now Please stop comparing me to oldnews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 1 hour ago, Isam said: Like his iq though alf. He is way smarter then his bro plus he plays a hard style without being stupid like his bro. Yup, Brady is the better of two boys. I would be concerned about him signing with us though. He might have selected the college route (which is different from his brother) in order to pick the team he plays for. Like you say, he is smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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