Kole Lind | RW

[-Vintage Canuck-]

Kole Lind finishes with 1 goal today. He now has 68 points (26 goals, 42 assists) in 40 games. He is also on an 18-game point streak.

[Rush17]

5 minutes ago, -Vintage Canuck- said:

Kole Lind finishes with 1 goal today. He now has 68 points (26 goals, 42 assists) in 40 games. He is also on an 18-game point streak.

Legit - Biecher saying the same.

 

 

[AlwaysACanuckFan]

39 minutes ago, Rush17 said:

Legit - Biecher saying the same.

 

 

[WHL rocks]

On 26/01/2018 at 3:31 AM, Rob_Zepp said:

If he is worth it (e.g. legit NHL player) then it is moot as he will be re-signing likely prior to end of ELC anyway.   If he isn't, it doesn't matter.   This is one area of the collective agreement that gets a lot of chatter but really isn't much of an issue.

He can sign an extension that starts after the ELC expires as per CBA. Not prior. 

 

Not a moot point at all. It makes Lind a free agent sooner meaning he gets to resign earlier meaning he get paid more money sooner. 

[RetroCanuck]

5 minutes ago, WHL rocks said:

He can sign an extension that starts after the ELC expires as per CBA. Not prior. 

 

Not a moot point at all. It makes Lind a free agent sooner meaning he gets to resign earlier meaning he get paid more money sooner. 

Potentially if he does well in the NHL. If he doesn't hit his prime yet before his contract is up then we may get a discount

[Rob_Zepp]

6 minutes ago, WHL rocks said:

He can sign an extension that starts after the ELC expires as per CBA. Not prior. 

 

Not a moot point at all. It makes Lind a free agent sooner meaning he gets to resign earlier meaning he get paid more money sooner. 

It is a moot point.   He isn’t even an NHL player yet.

 

iF he is one, he will get paid for what he is worth - up or down.

[WHL rocks]

Just now, RetroCanuck said:

Potentially if he does well in the NHL. If he doesn't hit his prime yet before his contract is up then we may get a discount

Nhl players don't hit their prime until 26. He definitely won't hit his prime by then and still you won't get a discount. ELC contracts make close to minimum wage before bonuses and most of those bonuses are difficult to achieve. 

 

Virtanen will make more next year than the 900k he gets on his ELC this year. 

 

Agents use the CBA to their client's advantage. The fact his agent did this means advatage Lind. 

 

 

[Time Lord]

On 1/26/2018 at 7:34 PM, Ray_Cathode said:

On a good team, Horvat is neither a number 1, nor a number 2 center - he is a pretty strong three.  We see him as other than that, but consider, when Henrik and Kesler were in their prime, what would Horvat have been? 

Pittsburgh was a good team and they had Crosby and Malkin as their top 2 centers.

 

So this means anyone worse than Malkin, such as Backstrom, Getzlaf, Kopitar, Staal, etc, is a 3rd line center on a good team.

 

Do you see why your argument is flawed?

On 1/26/2018 at 8:00 PM, Ray_Cathode said:

  But, he is likely to never be more than a sixty point guy at best

And in what universe is 60 points considered 3rd line production?

 

 

Edited January 28, 2018 by Time Lord

[WHL rocks]

1 hour ago, Rob_Zepp said:

It is a moot point.   He isn’t even an NHL player yet.

 

iF he is one, he will get paid for what he is worth - up or down.

No he won't get paid what he's worth up or down. If he's locked into his ELC he'll get paid less for longer than he's worth.  If he breaks out like Boeser this year or Barzal the diffetence will be millions of dollars. Virtanen is still a healthy scratch sometimes and even he will make more next year when his ELC expires than he would have if it slid one more year. 

 

What signing his contract in 2018 vs 2017 (he turns 20 in 2018) does is makes him free agent earlier. Hence he makes more money sooner.

What it also does is takes his waiver eligibility from 5 years to 3 years. Meaning Canucks won't be able to waive him to Utica for as long without him getting claimed, meaning he'll make NHL money 900k vs AHL money approx 100k.

 

The fact his agent orchestrated this means it's NOT a moot point. 

Edited January 28, 2018 by WHL rocks

[Ray_Cathode]

5 hours ago, Time Lord said:

Pittsburgh was a good team and they had Crosby and Malkin as their top 2 centers.

 

So this means anyone worse than Malkin, such as Backstrom, Getzlaf, Kopitar, Staal, etc, is a 3rd line center on a good team.

 

Do you see why your argument is flawed?

And in what universe is 60 points considered 3rd line production?

 

 

When the heck did Horvat ever get 60 points?  The best he has done is 52. 

Pittsburg was much more than a 'good team', they were. and maybe still are an elite team - how else would you describe a team that goes multiple times to the final? And winning several times?  Last year Crosby had 89 points and Malkin 72 - if Horvat was on that team, where would he be?  First line?  Second line?  Oh yeah, third line on a team that wins Stanley Cups. 

What the hell has Backstrom ever won outside the regular season?  He has never won a Stanley cup, nor even been close,  Getzlaf WAS a very good center - WAS, but the year they won, he was not the top center on his team, Andy McDonald was - but the reason they won was on the blue line - Pronger and Neidermeyer - they had two of the very best D in the league.

Oh, by the way, getting back to Horvat's 52 points last year:  

2017 Points fromm the middle:
Edmonton: McDavid 100, Draisaitl 77, Eberle 51
Minnesota: Staal 65, Koivu 58, Coyle 56
Pittsburg: Crosby 89, Malkin 72, I guess Horvat's 52 would put him about here.
San Jose: Pavelski 68, Couturier 52, Thornton 50
Toronto; Matthews 69, Kadri 61, Marner 61 (Bozak 55)

That positions him right in their for third line.

See the flaw in YOUR argument?  Like many in Vancouver, you seriously over-rate our players - it is just like when Toronto had crap teams, but the leafs fans raved about their players - like Sundin - well, we saw what he was about when he got here - a sausage in a skin way too tight.  We are 4th from the bottom of the league - and that is after adding a likely Calder runner-up.  We just lost to a team ranked lower than us, and we are healthy, 4 to zip. Calling Horvat a number one center (and many have even referred to him as a future captain), is just not realistic - Horvat hasn't really done anything to deserve that yet.  I'd like to think he might, but putting a weight of expectation like that on a soon to be 23 year old kid, is just not right and not fair.

[MrCanuck94]

11 minutes ago, Ray_Cathode said:

When the heck did Horvat ever get 60 points?  The best he has done is 52. 

Pittsburg was much more than a 'good team', they were. and maybe still are an elite team - how else would you describe a team that goes multiple times to the final? And winning several times?  Last year Crosby had 89 points and Malkin 72 - if Horvat was on that team, where would he be?  First line?  Second line?  Oh yeah, third line on a team that wins Stanley Cups. 

What the hell has Backstrom ever won outside the regular season?  He has never won a Stanley cup, nor even been close,  Getzlaf WAS a very good center - WAS, but the year they won, he was not the top center on his team, Andy McDonald was - but the reason they won was on the blue line - Pronger and Neidermeyer - they had two of the very best D in the league.

Oh, by the way, getting back to Horvat's 52 points last year:  

2017 Points fromm the middle:
Edmonton: McDavid 100, Draisaitl 77, Eberle 51
Minnesota: Staal 65, Koivu 58, Coyle 56
Pittsburg: Crosby 89, Malkin 72, I guess Horvat's 52 would put him about here.
San Jose: Pavelski 68, Couturier 52, Thornton 50
Toronto; Matthews 69, Kadri 61, Marner 61 (Bozak 55)

That positions him right in their for third line.

See the flaw in YOUR argument?  Like many in Vancouver, you seriously over-rate our players - it is just like when Toronto had crap teams, but the leafs fans raved about their players - like Sundin - well, we saw what he was about when he got here - a sausage in a skin way too tight.  We are 4th from the bottom of the league - and that is after adding a likely Calder runner-up.  We just lost to a team ranked lower than us, and we are healthy, 4 to zip. Calling Horvat a number one center (and many have even referred to him as a future captain), is just not realistic - Horvat hasn't really done anything to deserve that yet.  I'd like to think he might, but putting a weight of expectation like that on a soon to be 23 year old kid, is just not right and not fair.

A good team doesn't always define a player's role, every team has different strengths and weaknesses. Horvat isn't a 3rd line center on a good team, Horvat is the third center down the middle on a team that has two better centers ahead of him. If a team had Vasilevsky, Rinne and Fleury.. It doesn't mean that Vasi is a #1 goalie making Rinne a backup and Fleury an AHL starter, they have three #1 goalies. To use your Pittsburgh example, in the circumstance that they had Bo, they would have 1 generational center, 1 elite center and 1 top 6 center (who has the potential to be an elite 2-way center).

 

Also, I'm not understanding your argument on Backstrom and Getzlaf? If you're trying to say they aren't #1 C's, well, they are. Stanley Cup is a team prize, not just on one player.

 

Statistically (from last year), the top 30 centers had at least 55 points, and the top 60 centers had at least 45 points, so I'm comfortable saying that Horvat at the moment is a borderline #1 C who's only getting better. No one's overrating anyone. He's a solid top 6 2-way center who's the heart and soul of our team, he will be the captain moving forward and an elite 2-way C in his prime.

[Time Lord]

46 minutes ago, Ray_Cathode said:

When the heck did Horvat ever get 60 points?  The best he has done is 52. 

Pittsburg was much more than a 'good team', they were. and maybe still are an elite team - how else would you describe a team that goes multiple times to the final? And winning several times?  Last year Crosby had 89 points and Malkin 72 - if Horvat was on that team, where would he be?  First line?  Second line?  Oh yeah, third line on a team that wins Stanley Cups. 

What the hell has Backstrom ever won outside the regular season?  He has never won a Stanley cup, nor even been close,  Getzlaf WAS a very good center - WAS, but the year they won, he was not the top center on his team, Andy McDonald was - but the reason they won was on the blue line - Pronger and Neidermeyer - they had two of the very best D in the league.

Oh, by the way, getting back to Horvat's 52 points last year:  

2017 Points fromm the middle:
Edmonton: McDavid 100, Draisaitl 77, Eberle 51
Minnesota: Staal 65, Koivu 58, Coyle 56
Pittsburg: Crosby 89, Malkin 72, I guess Horvat's 52 would put him about here.
San Jose: Pavelski 68, Couturier 52, Thornton 50
Toronto; Matthews 69, Kadri 61, Marner 61 (Bozak 55)

That positions him right in their for third line.

See the flaw in YOUR argument?  Like many in Vancouver, you seriously over-rate our players - it is just like when Toronto had crap teams, but the leafs fans raved about their players - like Sundin - well, we saw what he was about when he got here - a sausage in a skin way too tight.  We are 4th from the bottom of the league - and that is after adding a likely Calder runner-up.  We just lost to a team ranked lower than us, and we are healthy, 4 to zip. Calling Horvat a number one center (and many have even referred to him as a future captain), is just not realistic - Horvat hasn't really done anything to deserve that yet.  I'd like to think he might, but putting a weight of expectation like that on a soon to be 23 year old kid, is just not right and not fair.

I didn't even say one of the things you think I said. You completely misinterpreted my argument even though it was really clear.

 

You were the one who said Horvat can reach 60 points. Didn't you see that I quoted you saying that? Keep up.

 

Did I argue that Horvat would be on Pittsburgh's top two lines over Crosby or Malkin? Nope, but it might seem that way if you lack reading comprehension.

 

Why did you talk about Backstrom and Getzlaf in a way that has nothing to do with what I said? I was arguing that they're not 3rd liners and you said nothing to refute that. Instead you rambled on about past cups and stuff.

 

Why do you think Eberle is a center?

 

Why do you think Coyle played center for Minnesota last season just because he's listed as one? Same thing with Marner.

 

Why do you refer to Logan Couture as Couturier? Do you know they're two different players?

 

Why are you even trying to argue that 52 points is third line production? You might just be the only person on earth who thinks that because statistically it just isn't true.

 

I overrate all Canucks? Based on one post? Ok

 

I don't even think Horvat is a first liner. But calling him a third line center isn't a valid argument. 

 

Try to make more coherent arguments and counter arguments next time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Phat Fingers]

On 2018-01-25 at 2:31 PM, Odd. said:

I see a bit of Tyler Toffoli/wayne Simmonds in Lind. Skill and passing ability if Toffoli and the gritty

tenacious, and north-south game Simmonds has. 

Sounds like a player every team needs and most lack. 

 

Lind is like an extra first rounder. 

[Phat Fingers]

Time Lord,

 

 

Take a bow, by far the best rebuttal post I have read in a while. 

 

Going to make popcorn and continue to enjoy the smack down. 

[Warhippy]

5 hours ago, Ray_Cathode said:

When the heck did Horvat ever get 60 points?  The best he has done is 52. 

Pittsburg was much more than a 'good team', they were. and maybe still are an elite team - how else would you describe a team that goes multiple times to the final? And winning several times?  Last year Crosby had 89 points and Malkin 72 - if Horvat was on that team, where would he be?  First line?  Second line?  Oh yeah, third line on a team that wins Stanley Cups. 

What the hell has Backstrom ever won outside the regular season?  He has never won a Stanley cup, nor even been close,  Getzlaf WAS a very good center - WAS, but the year they won, he was not the top center on his team, Andy McDonald was - but the reason they won was on the blue line - Pronger and Neidermeyer - they had two of the very best D in the league.

Oh, by the way, getting back to Horvat's 52 points last year:  

2017 Points fromm the middle:
Edmonton: McDavid 100, Draisaitl 77, Eberle 51
Minnesota: Staal 65, Koivu 58, Coyle 56
Pittsburg: Crosby 89, Malkin 72, I guess Horvat's 52 would put him about here.
San Jose: Pavelski 68, Couturier 52, Thornton 50
Toronto; Matthews 69, Kadri 61, Marner 61 (Bozak 55)

That positions him right in their for third line.

See the flaw in YOUR argument?  Like many in Vancouver, you seriously over-rate our players - it is just like when Toronto had crap teams, but the leafs fans raved about their players - like Sundin - well, we saw what he was about when he got here - a sausage in a skin way too tight.  We are 4th from the bottom of the league - and that is after adding a likely Calder runner-up.  We just lost to a team ranked lower than us, and we are healthy, 4 to zip. Calling Horvat a number one center (and many have even referred to him as a future captain), is just not realistic - Horvat hasn't really done anything to deserve that yet.  I'd like to think he might, but putting a weight of expectation like that on a soon to be 23 year old kid, is just not right and not fair.

I uh...don't want to intrude ehre

 

But Toews

Bergeron

Kopitar

 

What do all 3 have in common?

 

All have won the cup and been nominated for or won the selke.  What is one thing they don't share with other #1 centers in the league?  None of them have ever broken 85 points.  IN fact only Kopitar has breached the 80 point plateau and that was back in 09.

 

#1 centers don't have to be massive point machines.  Horvat pre injury was actually in line with those guys.  Obviously he doesn't have the supporting cast of norris winning defence or vezina calibre goaltending but is an uber responsible 2 way center.

[Gaudette Celly]

6 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

#1 centers don't have to be massive point machines.

It's the definition if your source and standard is stat sheets.

[Warhippy]

2 minutes ago, Hutton Wink said:

It's the definition if your source and standard is stat sheets.

dammit....jim you're right

[48MPHSlapShot]

Yeah, it's been established that Horvat is a top six center. Saying otherwise is just objectively wrong, no matter what metric you're using.

 

Anyways, that Lind guy is pretty good, eh?

[Bigturk8]

11 minutes ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

Yeah, it's been established that Horvat is a top six center. Saying otherwise is just objectively wrong, no matter what metric you're using.

 

Anyways, that Lind guy is pretty good, eh?

I actually forgot that I was in the Lind thread until I read this comment lol.

[nowhereman]

6 hours ago, Ray_Cathode said:

When the heck did Horvat ever get 60 points?  The best he has done is 52. 

Pittsburg was much more than a 'good team', they were. and maybe still are an elite team - how else would you describe a team that goes multiple times to the final? And winning several times?  Last year Crosby had 89 points and Malkin 72 - if Horvat was on that team, where would he be?  First line?  Second line?  Oh yeah, third line on a team that wins Stanley Cups. 

So because Bo Horvat would be the third best center on a team with a generational superstar and one of the best Russians in history, that makes him a third line center?

 

Hmm, well, if Malkin is playing on the second line because he's not as good as Crosby, does that make him a second line center?

 

Last season, Bo Horvat was 41st in production from centers. If he's top 60 amongst all of the centers in the NHL, wouldn't that make him a top six player?  

 

Me thinks you might need to revisit your "logic" there, pal.