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Jack Rathbone | #3 | D


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28 minutes ago, N7Nucks said:

Given the hype and expectations on CDC the only ones with the potential to be surprised are casual fans. Lotta hype for this guy. Seen it with Gaudette too. Kesler 2.0. I am excited to see Rathbone play. Just hope people don't jump on him for not being a big piece for the team early. 

who called Gaudette Kesler 2.0? :lol:

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jimmy McGill said:

who called Gaudette Kesler 2.0? :lol:

 

 

I didn’t, but I do remember Keller’s early career: (tables from hockeydb.com:

  Regular Season Playoffs
Season Team Lge GP G A Pts PIM +/- GP G A Pts PIM
2000-01 USNTDP Under-18 Team NAHL 56 7 21 28 40   -- -- -- -- --
2001-02 USNTDP Under-18 Team NAHL 10 5 6 11 4   -- -- -- -- --
2001-02 U.S. Junior National Team USHL 13 5 5 10 10   -- -- -- -- --
2002-03 Ohio State University CCHA 40 11 20 31 44 4          
2003-04 Manitoba Moose AHL 33 3 8 11 29 -4 -- -- -- -- --
2003-04 Vancouver Canucks NHL 28 2 3 5 16 -2 -- -- -- -- --
2004-05 Manitoba Moose AHL 78 30 28 58 105 22 14 4 5 9 8
2005-06 Vancouver Canucks NHL 82 10 13 23 79 1 -- -- -- -- --
2006-07 Vancouver Canucks NHL 48 6 10 16 40 1 1 0 0 0 0
2007-08 Vancouver Canucks NHL 80 21 16 37 79 1 -- -- -- -- --

 


Notice that Kesler did not break out till his fourth season. Here is Gaudette for comparison:

2017-18 Vancouver Canucks NHL 5 0 0 0 0 2 -- -- -- -- --
2018-19 Utica Comets AHL 14 5 6 11 12 1 -- -- -- -- --
2018-19 Vancouver Canucks NHL 56 5 7 12 18 -8 -- -- -- -- --
2019-20 Vancouver Canucks NHL 59 12 21 33 37 -7 10 0 0 0 2
2019-20 Utica Comets AHL 2 1 0 1 0 -1        

Note that Gaudette is ahead of Kesler’s offensive schedule. Not saying he is Kesler, but Kesler didn’t become a beast until he filled out physically - it’ll be interesting to see how Gaudette has trained over the break. At least Gaudette has not yet established that he cannot match Kesler offensively - the first crucial question is, can Gaudette significantly improve his D - if he does it will gain him the icetime to improve his offensive stats.

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7 hours ago, N7Nucks said:

I seen it a few times when he first signed with us. It was honestly hilarious then. And it only aged better.

I mean just begin physically they aren't even close. 

 

I like AG's attitude but he's got a long way to go to even secure 3C, and I"m not sure he's really suited to that spot. It wouldn't surprise me to see him play more on the wing this season. 

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10 hours ago, Ray_Cathode said:

 

    AHL 2 1 0 1 0 -1        

Note that Gaudette is ahead of Kesler’s offensive schedule. Not saying he is Kesler, but Kesler didn’t become a beast until he filled out physically - it’ll be interesting to see how Gaudette has trained over the break. At least Gaudette has not yet established that he cannot match Kesler offensively - the first crucial question is, can Gaudette significantly improve his D - if he does it will gain him the icetime to improve his offensive stats.

AG is 24 tho... not sure that he isn't already his final playing weight +/- a few off season pounds. He's never going to be a physically dominant player, but he does seem to have a great sense of where to be offensively. 

 

Which is maybe the kind of player Rathbone turns into as well, not big physically but seems pretty gifted moving the puck. 

Edited by Jimmy McGill
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Gotta wonder whether Rathbone is kept around whether he makes it as a regular this season or not, given the talk of taxi squads. Though how that'll work is still unclear. 

 

I suppose the question will be whether the Canucks see more value in him getting reps in with the Comets vs training with NHL guys and getting games here and there. Assuming he doesn't blow us away and make the team, which could also happen. 

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1 hour ago, Coconuts said:

Gotta wonder whether Rathbone is kept around whether he makes it as a regular this season or not, given the talk of taxi squads. Though how that'll work is still unclear. 

 

I suppose the question will be whether the Canucks see more value in him getting reps in with the Comets vs training with NHL guys and getting games here and there. Assuming he doesn't blow us away and make the team, which could also happen. 

Rathbone needs to play pro games more than any other D we have besides Woo will be making his pro debut with Rathbone. Guys like Brisebois, Rafferty, Chatfield need to be given a shot because they will probably not get another after this year.

 

Simply put we can be more patient with Rathbone than we can with others(Besides the D we just drafted).

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22 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Rathbone needs to play pro games more than any other D we have besides Woo will be making his pro debut with Rathbone. Guys like Brisebois, Rafferty, Chatfield need to be given a shot because they will probably not get another after this year.

 

Simply put we can be more patient with Rathbone than we can with others(Besides the D we just drafted).

That's a good take, you're probably right. If he had a pro season under his belt it might be a bit different. I'm looking forward to seeing what Woo can do, we really don't have many RD in the system. 

 

I'm not sure I'd put Brisebois with Rafferty and Chatfield, being 23 as opposed to 24 or 25, but he's getting to the same point yeah. Benning seems high on Chatfield and Rafferty had a helluva season. But yeah, sooner or later you've got to give the guys who've been stewing a legitimate opportunity. 

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I would love to see Rathbone come to camp and force his way on to the team this year with his excellent skating and cannon shot  i just don't see it happening this year. He may make the taxi squad if they have one and get rotated in for a few games but with the top 2 spots on the left side locked in for this year I believe that Green is going to want OJ in the third left spot simply because he can play the PK. Jack hasn't demonstrated that ability yet. Add to that that the AHL has said they are aiming for a Feb. 5th start date and I believe that the team will want him in Utica for this season, play top pairing minutes and develop a little more defensive reliability.

 

After this season though I think we should, and I hate to say it, probably let Edler walk. This is how I see pairings shaking out after this season:

 

Pair 1 Hughes - Myers 

Not out for the tough match ups but playing the most minutes. Not an ideal top pair, simply because Myers on the top pair is probably never ideal, and I honestly don't think Seattle will take him when we leave him exposed. But in limited minutes last season they seemed to have some chemistry where they actually elevated each others game not just the usual boost every dman got from playing with Hughes.

 

Pair 2 Juolevi - Schmidt

Playing almost as many minutes as pair 1 but getting the tough match ups. Schmidt has proven he can be a top pair dman on the right side and with another year of hopefully injury free pro experience for Juolevi I think he will show he can be relied upon defensively to make the right play in his own end and both players can transition to puck out of the d zone quickly and efficiently. (Side note: I believe the Juolevi will show he is a less physical version of Mattias Ekholm)

 

Pair 3 Rathbone - Rafferty or UFA Benn replacement 

Rathbone will show he is more than ready for NHL minutes by this point and will also be running PP2. I'd like him to be able to do this with Rafferty as his partner but 2 rookies on the 3rd pair isn't ideal and we will probably bring in a cheap and reliable dman who is more of a stay at home type with Rafferty staying as the 7th dman, which is where I see him slotting in this year as well.

 

All in all I think Rathbone is an excellent prospect and I am super excited to see what he can do at camp but I just don't think this is his year because the left side is too plugged this year and more minutes in Utica (if they even have a season) would be best for him.

 

Edited by 204CanucksFan
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2 hours ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

I think we should wait and see what kind of salary demands Edler makes before deciding he should walk.

 

He’s still a very good player, and also a huge part of the leadership group. Guys like Juolevi and Rathbone are a long way away from proving they’re good enough to displace Edler.

 

Consider Edler’s past season. Even with Hughes taking over primary power play duties, Edler put up 33 points in 59 games. That’s 38th among all NHL defencemen. Decidedly “first pairing” numbers. And they look even better when you consider per game and per 60 rates (he then becomes top-30). And when you look at even strength rates, Edler was top-15 among NHL Dmen in 5v5 points/60. Getting close to #1D numbers, all considered, even while making way for Hughes to be the top dog on the PP and during prime offensive 5v5 minutes.

 

And last season wasn’t even a one off.

 

The previous year, Edler was 42nd in defensemen scoring and 25th in points/60.

 

The year before, he was 41st in defenceman scoring.

 

”Steady Eddie” has been steadily giving us “first pairing” quality play and production for the past several years, and he’s really showed very little decline in his play, since turning 30. In some ways, he’s actually stabilized and looks better now than he did during various stages of his late 20s (at least in terms of his overall performance and results—of course there are signs of aging in his game, and I won’t deny this).

 

I think Edler, barring a significant injury, has quite a few good years left in him, and if he’s willing to give us those years, on some relatively cheap short term deals, there’s no way I’d say no.

 

And even if Juolevi and Rathbone pass him (which I doubt happens any time soon), Edler is certainly capable of playing his off side. We have this belief that he can’t play the right side, because he struggled in the past. But that was also playing his off side in a top-4 role. If Rathbone and Juolevi are leapfrogging Edler, then Edler won’t be playing top-4. And he’s more than capable of playing 3RD, if needed. Especially now, as a cagey vet, versus back in the early 2010s, when he was a relatively young Dman playing some tough minutes on his off side with LHDs like Hamhuis and Ballard.

 

I think so long as it’s financially feasible, and he continues to perform well through his 30s, there’s a place for Edler on this team.

 

(Certainly, if he decides to test the open market, we can’t afford him. There’s no way we can match “market value” on a player like Edler. In that scenario, I’d agree that we’d have to let him walk. But hopefully, Edler is willing to take a discount.)

 

This^
 

Eagle is the man 

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2 hours ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

It’s funny. I have a great appreciation for Edler’s game, but even I was surprised when I started looking through his numbers at 30+ years of age. Was expecting to maybe see him top-50, but not so much top-30, and top-15 (at least for last year). Looking at his age curve and career results, he may very well be one of those Dmen who has a steady period of high level play through his mid 30s, and then hits his real decline in his late 30s (it’s not the norm, but many higher end players follow this curve, versus the standard decline pattern that starts in the mid-to-late 20s). It’s hard to say, but if I were to bet, I’d say that, barring injury, Edler might very well be able to play another 3-5 years as a top-4, and even maintain NHL quality to age 40 (or even beyond—before actually dropping to “replacement level”), if he takes care of himself, and still has the drive to continue his career.

 

EDIT: Even by advanced metrics, Edler is actually trending upwards as he gets older, and hits his mid-30s. Over the last three seasons, his WAR is something like 0.3, 1.5, and an eyepopping 2.4 last season (anything over 2 is pretty much elite). It almost seems like the arrival of Hughes, and the rise of the young core, has helped Edler re-establish himself in a role where he can provide a ton of value to the team, while gracefully taking a step back, and ceding that #1D spot and the primary offensive responsibilities to Hughes.

Yup. Edler has always excelled when not asked to carry all the burden by himself. Just like when the team was at its peak in +/- 2011, and we had some mix of Erhoff, Hamhuis, Salo, Bieksa etc around him (and a pretty decent and supportive forward group). 

 

Same applies now as we surround him with more, better players (Hughes, Myers, now Schmidt... And a steadily improving forward group again).

 

What he's lost with age (skating... which wasn't an overly strong suit to begin with) he seems to be making up for with experience as well.

 

I could easily see him play another 3+ years.

 

In fact, I wouldn't hate setting what him and Hughes paired together looked like this year.

 

Edler, Hughes

Schmidt, Myers

Juolevi, Benn

 

Though I'd imagine we'll likely see more of him and Schmidt partnered in more of a shut down/match up role given both of their ability to play against top competition (while contributing offensively) and Hughes-Myers given more offensive opportunity/less D zone starts etc.

 

As for where Rathbone eventually fits, perhaps it's actually Hughes switching to the right to make room for an eventual left side of (in some order) Edler, Juolevi and Rathbone (until Edler retires).

Edited by aGENT
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This isn't shiny toy syndrome. I love Edler. The problem is he will be 35 before this season ends. The only people that age playing quality top 4 minutes are Giordano, Keith, Suter, Weber and Burns. Which are a much higher tier of dmen than Edler ever has been. The biggest advantage he has over the other players in our system are the two you can't teach: experience and size. Unfortunately if the last couple of years of hockey have shown anything, its that size is great but it doesn't mean much if you can't skate.

 

Yes, he can still put up points if he doesn't have to do the heavy lifting and play against the teams best players. This isn’t a shot against him I just believe that we will see that the other players are going to be capable of passing by him on the depth chart sooner than later, as they progress and he declines. Dmen like Chara, Lidstrom and even Chelios are an abberation, not the norm, he is getting to the age that 95% of dmen statistically fall off a cliff

 

His injury history is also troubling and is only going to get worse as he get older with his style of play as well. He has only ever managed to play more than 70 games 5 times in his career. Again, I love Edler, he is the franchise leader in almost every statistical category for a dman for a reason. That being said like so many other player his age the game passes them by and I think players like OJ and Rathbone are great prospects and they are going to show themselves fully capable of handling it 

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20 minutes ago, 204CanucksFan said:

Yes, he can still put up points if he doesn't have to do the heavy lifting and play against the teams best players. 

Yeah... This tells me all I need to know about your thoughts on Edler. What exactly do you think his role was last year? What do you think his zone starts and usage looked like?

 

He basically did the majority of the 'heavy lifting' you speak of to supply the likes of Hughes with heavily tilted (easier) offensive usage.

 

And still put up points despite far less offensive opportunity/PP time.

 

So yes, he will eventually be passed on the depth chart both as he declines and others improve. Nobody's arguing that. Hughes has already 'passed' him for prime offensive minutes/PP usage. There's nobody however that has passed his ability to play a key match up/dzone/PK/hard minute role on this team (though Schmidt will help immensely there IMO). He'll still have a role doing just that here for a good couple years IMO. And even in a slightly diminished, third pair version after that if he chooses.

Edited by aGENT
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49 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Yeah... This tells me all I need to know about your thoughts on Edler. 

Yeah... a realist. Edler is a soon to be 35 year old dman that is going to start declining sooner than later. And in a flat cap world that we live in at the moment we will have 22.7 mil to resign Pettersson, Hughes, Gaudette, Demko and Edler as well as fill the forward holes left by Pearson and Sutter (although I think Hogs and Podz should fill those holes nicely :bigblush:) So we are going to have to make some tough choices. To me one of those would be let Edler walk and fill with a player on an ELC. Like sid said his salary demands will be critical in making a final decision but as you have pointed out he is currently still playing as a more than capable dman and unless he takes a massive discount we simply can't afford him.

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