oldnews Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 On 2017-07-01 at 10:03 AM, CanadianRugby said: And Toronto finished last and picked first, what's your point. #Shanaplan. Genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 Just now, oldnews said: Derp - that chart, if you actually read it, is the chart that is adjusted for zone starts Your claim that Gagner was the most sheltered player on the Bluejackets is utterly absurd. What's patently obvious is that you don't really know what 'sheltering' means or how to qualify that claim.. "Sheltering" has two fundamental aspects. The easiest to understand / most objective aspect is zone starts - Gagner was 7th on the CBJ in ozone starts, and 9 other players had lower defensive zone starts than he did. The other element - quality of competition and teammates - Gagner's team mate corsi/60 for was the second lowest on the Bluejackets, teammate corsi against was 11th - teammate goals for/60 was 15th, teammate goals against was 11th. TMCF% Gagner was 20th. Opposition corsi for there were 5 players with lower OPCF%. Teammate GoalFor% he was 14th, opposition goal for%, again 5 players with lower OPGF%. There is literally not a single metric that would indicate that Gagner is the "most sheltered player on Columbus" - an utter fail of a claim. It's funny. how you think ozone starts and corsi its the tell all sign for sheltering, but cluelessly fail to understand context. haha King of Derp... The biggest problem with you is you think a few metric's taken out of context equals something. You are so clueless when you spout that info off that you really haven't took anything of importance into the equation. Like say what players he was lined up against, or putting him on against a tired comp......wait you do... Just now, oldnews said: What Columbus actually did - was take a page out of Mike Sullivan's Penguins playbook and utilize a 3rd line that would cause matchup problems for their opponents. - which Gagner, Hartnell and Sedlak did - distinctly different from his role in Philadelphia where he was a winger for their primary shutdown center and his production understandably dipped under the circumstances. What you attributed to his play in Philly was a failure to look at the actual context of his deployment - which is what my original post pointed out - that his corsi, shooting percentage and under 50% ozone starts didn't actually indicate poor play so much as a role that didn't really play to his strengths / suit him nor was it conducive to production - not all that unlike the usage of Del Zotto in Philly. The CBJ utilized Gagner more to his strengths - however to equate that him being the most sheltered Bluejacket is laughable, with nothing to qualify it. In any event, I don't expect you to bother to inform yourself what the actual objective criteria of 'sheltering' are - you clearly have no idea - but there it is if informing yourself is of any value to you. Hmmm match up problems i wonder if that has anything to do with shelter... you just contradicted yourself.....I guess playing a player against weaker competition has nothing to do with sheltering...what about keeping his icetime limited so that he's staying fresh on the ice..... I could quote article after article that states gagner was sheltered last year. But you must be smarter then all them because you think corsi taken out of context means something....You're a real gem oldnews, stick to your guns no matter how clearly wrong you are, or try to change the definition of what you believe "sheltering" is... But as for me, i'll stick with the actually term, and other hockey writes tend to feel the same way.... http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/20-fantasy-thoughts-sam-gagner-turning-nhls-version-dh/ Quote I said years ago that some smart team was going to land Sam Gagner, once the Oilers finally gave up, and would find a way to turn him into a real player. Never in a million years did I think that it would be Columbus, but here we are. They have turned him into hockey’s version of the DH, skating limited/sheltered even-strength minutes and then using him as a power-play specialist. More and more teams are doing this to help extract more out of their lineup. It’s a great way to take advantage of the supreme skills a player has, while not leaving them overexposed. http://www.straight.com/news/932001/grading-canucks-free-agency-signings Quote Gagner was seen as playing sheltered minutes in Columbus against other teams’ weaker defence pairings. If he can put up numbers similar to last year on the Canucks, the deal would be a win. http://www.theoilersrig.com/2017/06/off-season-targets-sam-gagner/ Quote He provides good forward depth and can be effective when utilized in the correct role. A good way to describe Gagner is that he is a sort of a “niche” type of player. While he doesn’t add the flash of the more premier players in the league, he can produce at an effective pace when placed in a sheltered offensive position http://www.vancourier.com/pass-it-to-bulis/pros-and-cons-signing-sam-gagner-1.20839532 Quote He was sheltered in Columbus, playing minimal minutes at even-strength, and gifted big minutes on the power play. http://www.tsn.ca/statistically-speaking-analyzing-free-agent-signings-1.794246 Quote His usage was sheltered effectively with the Blue Jackets, and Gagner was a big contributor on the power play. http://nhlnumbers.com/2017/6/18/because-it-s-the-cap-columbus-blue-jackets-offseason-preview Quote For their internal contracts, Quincey and Korpikoski are easy decisions to let go, while Gagner I would also let go of. He had an excellent season, but he played mostly sheltered minutes, and got a lot of points on the power play this season, which probably isn't worth whatever he's asking for. 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oldnews Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 On 2017-07-01 at 4:08 PM, jijitsu said: Kassian ends up on the Oil and Gagner on the Nucks! LOL bizzaro world. Still think we should project sign Yakupov, let Green rehab his career, and then flip him back to the Coil for Kass (and a 5th lol). Kassian and Gudbranson, a one two punch no team would have the horses to f with. As for this signing, obviously Gagner doesn't make this team harder to play against, but that doesn't preclude making a move like this. One move at a time - the team could still stand to add a Bouma type, subtract a Boucher type (or whomever) - but there's lots of time to continue to tweak. On that note I really liked the Gadjovich pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 9 hours ago, ice orca said: I don't mind Gagner, just the term 2 years would have been good. Without any times to the contract, the term really isn't a big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 5 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: It's funny. how you think ozone starts and corsi its the tell all sign for sheltering, derp - reading comprehension isn't your strong point. very clearly and simply posted - zone starts and quality of linemate and competition - really not hard to understand. Why am I not surprised that with the objective outcomes staring you in the face, you remain Captain Tedious with your head in the sand? 4 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that gagner was the most sheltered player on the CBJ team last year. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 nvmd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 9 minutes ago, oldnews said: derp - reading comprehension isn't your strong point. very clearly and simply posted - zone starts and quality of linemate and competition - really not hard to understand. Why am I not surprised that with the objective outcomes staring you in the face, you remain Captain Tedious with your head in the sand? LOL. Knowledge on hockey isn't your strong suit. All you're good for is misunderstanding the context of advanced stats but clearly not having a clue how they relate to a discussion. And you think I have my head in the sand. Haha good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coastal.view Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 mmmm.. . a debate (of sorts) some personal attacks built in were you 2 selling tickets to this event ? and this is all over gagner a very average bottom 6 center who signed at best a mid level contract he's a bit of a reach . but could pan out nicely given his pedigree he also has ties to the canucks very little down side to this signing perhaps some upside he is a place holder most likely till a younger center is ready Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 2 hours ago, Claiborne55 said: haha...Canucks can provide easy minutes... that's the attitude that put us in second to last place. an 'attitude' put the team in 2nd last lol you really know your hockey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claiborne55 Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 14 minutes ago, oldnews said: an 'attitude' put the team in 2nd last lol you really know your hockey explain an easy minute in the NHL then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 3 minutes ago, Claiborne55 said: explain an easy minute in the NHL then? do you need an explanation of relativity as well? you're a great addition to these boards. good hockey discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claiborne55 Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 1 minute ago, oldnews said: do you need an explanation of relativity as well? you're a great addition to these boards. good hockey discussion. Quality answer... you just blowing hot air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 Just now, Claiborne55 said: Quality answer... you just blowing hot air. show me your last quality post. got any? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claiborne55 Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 Just now, oldnews said: show me your last quality post. got any? straw man answer... just trying to run from the question... classic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 9 minutes ago, Claiborne55 said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWMc1 Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 25 minutes ago, oldnews said: show me your last quality post. got any? I don't usually use these but, Strawman argument; think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apollo Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 8 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Um that's exactly the case. https://www.fanragsports.com/nhl/blue-jackets-put-sam-gagner-position-succeed/ Hmmmm this article makes some valid points... I've skimmed through the basis of arguments going on here and who knows which of you will be right... But one things for sure... The guy is 27, has had multiple 40+ point seasons and coming off his best year with 50 even though if it was sheltered. Surely he can put 35+ points on a 3rd line with Sutter? Or who knows maybe he'll excel with some other guys. Regardless, it's 3 years and 3.15 AAV. Jim did well here and there's really no harm in this contract. I think there's a huge anti Jimbo mob on here (which I kinda am a part of and he's made some poor decisions which has fueled this mob)... And we just feel the need to bash his every move. Hes made good moves in free agency to make us respectable. I sure as hell don't want to finish 3rd last in the nhl next year and draft 6th overall only to watch some American teams win the lottery and push us down. Our best bet is to load up like he did with low risk assets, if they pan out great... Who knows maybe some of our prospects flourish and become stars and we make the playoffs. If not, at least we have assets to trade away. I think gagner will be a good signing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 4 minutes ago, apollo said: I think there's a huge anti Jimbo mob on here (which I kinda am a part of... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete M Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 16 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: 3 years isn't the end of the world, it's better than four years. but 3 years isn't perfect either. We needed a player to be a short term stop gap to give our players time to develop. If those players develop at a faster rate than his roster spot becomes a burden and we will likely be trying to move him, that's if he can maintain his play, because if he can't it's a Higgins situations for that final year... In a perfect world he got two years, low risk, short term gap for players like Goldy, Dahlen and Brock to ease into the spot light. Again 3 years isn't the end of the world but it's not ideal either. Agree, plus JB is still drafting, if he picks up a couple franchise players during this time, they will need roster spots...(time doesn't end with OJ and EP) as long as the vets are contributing and putting up better points than expected, then they are tradeable. The thing is, a lot of GMs have a hard time trading a player that is producing more than expected (i.e., Vrbata) before their term is up. Short term thinking rules the day rather than long term thinking...especially with vets that are producing and are 1-2 years away from decline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete M Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 16 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Baertschi almost wasn't a canucks because of wasted spots like higgins, had injuries not had hit, baertschi wouldn't be here. We waived linden vey just for Higgins roster spot, Jake and McCann also got to enjoy 4line minutes with no pp time because of him, It's been less than two years, have people forgot that quickly? Kassian...8 minutes per game?...look at him now...player development is so important; it would be nice to have these 18-20 year olds play junior or the AHL, then 1-2 years in the AHL to mature and learn the pro game. The cap world doesn't allow this because a team needs ELCs to balance out the $10M/ year contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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